Skate Profiling: pros and cons?

[totalchaos 10]

Well I finally got the new skates and they are great. I've skated on them 4 times already to get the feel for them and to start breaking them in. Just having new skates with full steel has made a huge difference in my skating. So it appears that was a huge part of why I was looking into profiting. So far I'm thinking I may not need to get them profiled but I'm wondering if it might get better if I do. What should I be paying attention to when I'm on the ice so that I can make an educated guess on whether or not to get them profiled or switch to fbv.

[Chadd 916]

Well I finally got the new skates and they are great. I've skated on them 4 times already to get the feel for them and to start breaking them in. Just having new skates with full steel has made a huge difference in my skating. So it appears that was a huge part of why I was looking into profiting. So far I'm thinking I may not need to get them profiled but I'm wondering if it might get better if I do. What should I be paying attention to when I'm on the ice so that I can make an educated guess on whether or not to get them profiled or switch to fbv.

If you are not having an issue with balance or turning, I wouldn't worry about it at this point.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Well I finally got the new skates and they are great. I've skated on them 4 times already to get the feel for them and to start breaking them in. Just having new skates with full steel has made a huge difference in my skating. So it appears that was a huge part of why I was looking into profiting. So far I'm thinking I may not need to get them profiled but I'm wondering if it might get better if I do. What should I be paying attention to when I'm on the ice so that I can make an educated guess on whether or not to get them profiled or switch to fbv.

Simply if your happy with both your speed and turning ability you may want to leave them. I personally depending on the skate and skate company I like to check blade heights and so on to make sure they are what they say. So if there a Bauer they should be a 9ft and should be at least the same height front and back.

Other then that it is simply feel. If you feel you want to go faster and are not worried about your turn`s more blade. If you want tighter turns a little less blade when it comes to the profiling aspect.

[moreoutdoor 6]

Nice Thread. I bought some used skates with a 8/13 profile (no additional pitch) and a 90/75 FBV from noicing. I like the FBV but honestly, I cant tell if I really like the 8/13 dual profile. After a couple skates and getting used to it I dont *dislike* it, but I'm not sure if its best for me.

I need to get a pair of Blacksteel for these skates within the next couple of months, and I will buy them from Noicing and get a profile. Can anyone recommend what type of things I should be trying to notice with my current profile to compare to what I would like going forward? I really dont know how to disseminate this stuff for myself.

...

things I'd consider when considering how a 'new'/different skate feels when I get on them for the first few skates...

skating backwards by the nature of it, has you on the balls of your feet - so the forward profile has a considerable effect - do you feel comfortable and stable enough skating backwards? can you tell ???

forward skating maneuvers, going from edge to edge on crossovers, are affected greatly by the forward profile. Yes, you're working the runner center, but the forward radius also comes into play. too much 'digging in' and too much turn as you transition from edge to edge could indicate a tighter radius than what might work for your style. And becuase 'pitch' also effects this greatly, being too far on the Balls of the feet can have an adverse effect on fluid manuevering. Conversely, having a harder time transitioning edge to edge on crossover maneuvers might indicate a bit too large of forward radius or not being able to get really planted on the center. Pitch has a great effect on this.

the rear profile - on two skate cuts and turns by pressuring the heels - if it's not initiating quick enough (your upper body is already leaning and facing the new direction before the skates are coming around under you...) then a bit shorter radius might help... It's rare when a rear radius affects how small the actual turn radius can be, but it does affect how quickly you can initiate the turn...

And It's really hard (maybe impossible for me) to separate all this from the actual boot and the way it fits - since that make such a huge difference in the way one skates... ad then you can;t forget the 'hollow'. And since I've never skated on FBV variations, my opinions/observations all relate to old school 'hollow' variations...

How FBV affects profiles and combo radii is another interesting avenue to explore in the coming years...

[ridindirty 11]

things I'd consider when considering how a 'new'/different skate feels when I get on them for the first few skates...

skating backwards by the nature of it, has you on the balls of your feet - so the forward profile has a considerable effect - do you feel comfortable and stable enough skating backwards? can you tell ???

forward skating maneuvers, going from edge to edge on crossovers, are affected greatly by the forward profile. Yes, you're working the runner center, but the forward radius also comes into play. too much 'digging in' and too much turn as you transition from edge to edge could indicate a tighter radius than what might work for your style. And becuase 'pitch' also effects this greatly, being too far on the Balls of the feet can have an adverse effect on fluid manuevering. Conversely, having a harder time transitioning edge to edge on crossover maneuvers might indicate a bit too large of forward radius or not being able to get really planted on the center. Pitch has a great effect on this.

the rear profile - on two skate cuts and turns by pressuring the heels - if it's not initiating quick enough (your upper body is already leaning and facing the new direction before the skates are coming around under you...) then a bit shorter radius might help... It's rare when a rear radius affects how small the actual turn radius can be, but it does affect how quickly you can initiate the turn...

And It's really hard (maybe impossible for me) to separate all this from the actual boot and the way it fits - since that make such a huge difference in the way one skates... ad then you can;t forget the 'hollow'. And since I've never skated on FBV variations, my opinions/observations all relate to old school 'hollow' variations...

How FBV affects profiles and combo radii is another interesting avenue to explore in the coming years...

This is great and helps a lot. Just to add, I am on Bauer One100's.

First thing first, I dont feel like I am on the balls of my feet enough... definitely sitting on my heels too much. I am torn between adding some forward pitch to my profile, or getting Superfeet. Do you (or anyone else) have an opinion? Maybe the 3mm via the Superfeet wont be enough as is. I bought size 9 Yellow Superfeet but returned them because the arch felt like it was too far back and the heel felt a little small. I have been meaning to pick up the larger size, but since the stock footbeds dont hurt my feet I havent yet. The big difference I felt with the Superfeet was I felt on a lot more on top of my skates and I really liked it after 30 mins of getting used to it.

Second, I kind of feel like I am digging a little too much on crossovers. I'm just getting back into hockey after a long time off (15-16 yrs), and I didnt skate in that period, so some of this is just getting my feet under me... but still, this may sound weird, but my skates feel like they want to crossover quickly when turning, they dont seem to like slow, deliberate crossovers that keep a lot of speed, but at the same time (the weird part) when I do straight ahead crossovers to gain speed, I feel like I am getting too much digging into the ice. The blade feels a little slow under my feet (although I think I get pretty good glide, to be honest).

Third, the two feet turns you are discussing seem ok, maybe slightly slow if I had to go one way or another. These were always my favorite turns growing up actually, I loved being able to turn and stop on a dime and always felt it along with speed were my best skating attributes. I always skated Tacks (my favorite were Tacks Kevlar pumps, I think those were 752's. Whatever the stock profile is on those). I certainly cant skate those turns like I used to, and I wouldnt mind being a little quicker on them, but I cant tell if thats the profile or my skating, or a combination. Im not sure it helps much that I feel like im too much on my heels as it is.

Thanks for any additional recommendations... and if Jimmy wants to chime in, it will probably save me the time of submitting a form to them for a recommendation, and them responding to it..

[moreoutdoor 6]

ridindirty, options I might use... but then I'm nutz...

1. borrow some skates close to my size (within .5 size) and have a 'different/known' radius... Like right now you're on bauers, which stock (I could be corrected if wrong...?) have a 9 ft radius. Maybe get on a pr of CCMs which have a general 10 ft radius - see how this works for you. Fit may be slightly off, boots may not be comfortable, but you'll be able to tell the differrence between the runner profiles...

2. consider what a combo or triple radius might give you... If you have a good local sharpener, they might be able to make 'adjustments' for you. Other option is noicingsports - they seem to have some great experience in variations of dual and triple radius profiles - maybe make use of their expertise.

give it some time for the skate skills to settle back into whatever skating 'form' you can muster these days. I also did a very long 'off-ice' hiatus (25+yrs) and it did take some time to get back to where I am now. Hard to say where that all is compared to my younger years, but it's enough to notice differences.

The 'nut'z part...

Besides my old-school skates (which shall remain unnamed in this thread...) I came back using Grafs (605s) and recently bought a couple pr of Vapors (older & newer), then spent some time on APXs and RBZs and a pr of U+06 (which I ended up buying to keep on the East Coast for visits...), then bought a pr of NOS CCM Vector Pros, and now have a pair of NOS Easton S15s coming in (can't wait...) SO NUTZ - maybe. But my money well spent - I 'save' in other places... I'm getting a good feel on the modern 'skate' concept and what suits me...

I've always been crazy about skating (right coaster - living in SoCal since '88, that can be easy to forget -even for me) and could never get enough ice time.

3. runners are quite cheap - maybe get a second pr right off the bat, have them profiled to some other 'interesting' profile which has characteristics which suit you, swap and skate... learn a bunch

I just did that with my CCM Vectors (now my go-to skates) and had them (2nd pr runners) done to a triple profile with 12ft as the main /underfoot section - very interesting... not sure if I'm skilled enough to stay with12 ft.

[ridindirty 11]

Im on a 8/13 profile with no additional pitch from noicing. Bought these skates used but in VG condition and the previous owner had them profiled.

No place local does profiles. Im going to go with noicing eitherway. Since they seem to recommend 8/13 or pretty close to everyone ive seen, I was hoping to get some better feedback rather than go through a standardized form they have everyone fill out.

[moreoutdoor 6]

8/13 - should be allowing you to get forward on the balls easily on quick starts ? The 13 may be making it seem like you're on your heels since there's so much more rear runner on the ice when you're centered. I had one of my vapors done to a 9/12 and didn't like it much myself - forward crossover maneuvers were really quirky and hard to control. If my balance control was a little off, I felt like I'd pitch forward. Otherwise, I do better on just the stock CCM profile.

I'm considering sending the Vapors to NoIcing to get a triple or their Quad S, since these are not my regular 'goto' skates, I'm open to experimenting with them ...

EDIT: so if anyone already has the either of the noicing Quad profiles... would luv to know more... comments ?

noicing guys, comments ?

[jimmy 194]

Im on a 8/13 profile with no additional pitch from noicing. Bought these skates used but in VG condition and the previous owner had them profiled.

No place local does profiles. Im going to go with noicing eitherway. Since they seem to recommend 8/13 or pretty close to everyone ive seen, I was hoping to get some better feedback rather than go through a standardized form they have everyone fill out.

You bought used skates we had profiled for the previous owner based on their parameters and preferences? How many times had they been sharpened since we radiused them and who sharpened them? How does the 8/13' work for you? I don't understand what "better feedback" are you hoping for from us? Have you contacted us?

Also, what makes you think we seem to recommend 8/13' to as you say to "pretty close to everyone"? Hmmm, do you have access to our records? I remember other misinformed people on this forum who previously claimed we did the same radius on everyone, and it wasn't an 8/13'. :-O We have about 40 different radius, each works correctly for each skater based on their profile. We have customers on virtually every radius we offer, singles, duals, trips and quads. There are a lot of factors used to determine radius, if you haven't conacted us and given us the info that we need., we really can't do anything for you.

[ridindirty 11]

Jeez, its seems tough to ask an owner of a LHS or a vender or anyone with expertise around here a question without offending someone or the majority refusing to respond. As much as this site can be a great resource (putting customers directly in contact with vendors and LHS's, most if not all seem extremely knowledgeable) I find it very hard to get answers from those who I request them from or are in the know. Anyway....

Jimmy, I directly asked you this, and explained to you why my assumption is what it is. I went out of my way to tell you why I thought this, and directly asked you to respond and set the record straight. I didnt want to offend you. See my post from 3/31:

Thats good to know, I didn't know that was included in the service. Question for you: Of the ~4 people I know that sent the form to you guys to get a custom profile, you recommended 8/13 to all of them, and from what I have read on the internet, it seems like you recommend that to a lot of people. (Of course, its just my perception from reading threads and trying to do research, but using the word 'majority' would fit). Is this true, and if so, what is the reason for this?

You bought used skates we had profiled for the previous owner based on their parameters and preferences? How many times had they been sharpened since we radiused them and who sharpened them? How does the 8/13' work for you? I don't understand what "better feedback" are you hoping for from us? Have you contacted us?

Also, what makes you think we seem to recommend 8/13' to as you say to "pretty close to everyone"? Hmmm, do you have access to our records? I remember other misinformed people on this forum who previously claimed we did the same radius on everyone, and it wasn't an 8/13'. :-O We have about 40 different radius, each works correctly for each skater based on their profile. We have customers on virtually every radius we offer, singles, duals, trips and quads. There are a lot of factors used to determine radius, if you haven't conacted us and given us the info that we need., we really can't do anything for you.

According to the previous owner: You profiled them and then sharpened and serviced the blade over its life. I didnt go into too many details once he told me this, as your reputation precedes you. As I said, I have seen your recommendation process through 4 friends. I have the skate profile form, I just havent needed the new blades yet. Admittedly its seems rather generic and I was hoping to garner more advice from other people with insight (read: expertise) into the process of choosing a profile to help *me* understand what I should be feeling and looking for in my skating to determine how I can best relay what I want to you. Your form does not go over this. You did not go over this in response to any of my 4 friends that filled out the form. This is not to say you dont know what you are doing. Far from it. Merely that as someone that is inquisitive and likes to learn, I hoped to get more info and learn more on my own before I went through the process. This did not mean I needed a response *just* from you, but I thought it would be helpful.

I should note, in response to your last 4 sentences. I never implied that you dont have customers on every profile, nor that you dont do a great job. In fact from what I understand its exactly the opposite. I said what my impression and research led me to see: It *seems* as if most of your internet customers are recommended a 8/13 or thereabout. I am sorry if this offended you. In my defense I asked you a question prior to that hoping you would explain the process and set the record straight.

In summation: I am just trying to learn. Trust me, I if I could go to your shop, or any of the people on this forum that are experts in this and talk to you and give you my business, I would, in a heartbeat. As it stands you will still get my business from 3,000 miles away.

Thanks.

[ChrisLGR20 2]

I would love to have a good local sharpener to work with but the only one around me that does profiling has a horrible reputation so I won't go there. I live in central CT and I've always gone to South Windsor but they are the ones that said they don't believe in profiling. So if anyone knows of a place in CT that is good let me know

Are you talking about the guys at the South Windsor Arena?

[totalchaos 10]

No the guys in south Windsor are great but one of there employees told me that they don't believe in profiling. I've been buying all my gear there for over 35 years and I wouldn't go anywhere else for my gear. They do a good sharpening my skates but they only offer one hollow, or so they told me, and they don't do profiling or fbv and I'd be interested in trying both

[ChrisLGR20 2]

SW is awesome for gear but their skate sharpening hasn't been that good. I would check out Preferred Hockey down the road from them. I don't believe he does FBV but he does most everything else. VERY knowledgeable!

[chippa13 1844]

Anyone who tells you that they don't believe in profiling either doesn't know how to or simply doesn't want to do it.

[jimmy 194]

Those who don't believe in profiling, ask them why there are so many different stick curves, lies and flex's for sticks. When they tell you that everyone has a curve pattern and config that works better for them, tell them that everyone has a profile that works best for them. Imagine if there were only one stick curve avail. Doesn't make sense to have one radius either. Duh.

[Chadd 916]

I don't believe in profiling for the sake of profiling. However, I do believe in using it to address issues. Way too many people expect a profile to automatically make them a better skater, when they really just need more practice or instruction. There are also shops that play on people looking for a quick fix and promote it as if a simple profile will take a beer league putz and turn them into Bobby Orr.

(full disclosure, I am a beer league putz)