From Reebok Ribcor skates to possibly VH skates. Boot/holder question.

[gogovs 10]

I currently have Reebok Ribcor skates 8.5D with 280 Speed blade holders/runners. The fit is not bad but can use better heel lock especially on my right foot. At first, I thought about trying on the Easton Mako skates but the lack of protection and really aggressive stance had me back off. Now I read about the VF skates and I might actually pull the trigger. The question is the holder. I really like the look of the black Tuuk edge holder with the black VH skate but I think I already got used to the Speed blade holders/runners after having my Ribcor's for about 4-5 months. I never skated on Bauers/Tuuks. The speed blade has 10' radius (correct me if I am wrong) and Tuuk has 9' radius but that can be fixed by profiling. To my understanding, the Speed blade has more aggressive pitch (close to Bauer Vapor line) and the holder is more neutral. Also does anybody know the difference in pitch between VH skate boot and the Ribcor boot? Still have the Mako in back of my mind too. Thank you guys for your help and suggestions.

[sticktime 12]

Just switched from Supreme 190's with a +2 pitch to 28k's with an out of the box sharpening to 1/2".

First skate in them today and by the second stride I could tell that I needed to have some pitch. So took them to lhs and had a +1 put on. Skate g again tomorrow and will know if it's good or need to go to +2.

[sticktime 12]

Staying with the +1 for now, but may get another set of steel profiled to +2 to compare. Thinking I may like the +2 better.

[Mimizk 114]

It's almost no mean to think about the "boots' pitch". Of course there is a meant to consider the boots how much can it provide us the angle of the ankle.

Skates' "pitch" is provided from the holder (or runner if you use contouring as so). The holder's difference of elevation decide the skate's pitch.

If you changed your skate's pitch over 1cm by using heel lift shim, probably you can't feel any disadvantages which would be caused by the difference of the boots' arch.

So I would recommend you that you should choose your next boots for not "pitch", but also another reason or value. For example fit, solidity, durability, price or looks. Pitch is not big reason for choosing boots. It can be changed easily by shims or changing holder.

Of course you can change the radius by contouring. So, I say the important things when we choose our boots is that we can't change or tune from after, for example volume, toe box shape, eyelet position, tendon guard, etc...

[iSmile 0]

Mimizk

You are wrong. Pitch can include in sole of boot. Vapor boot (without holder) have more pitched forward, then Supreme boot. Reebok neutral sole - same as Supreme line.

[Mimizk 114]

iSmile

If you really want to mean as you said, it would be different by sox too.

Of course your sentence is just correct. Insole can change the "pitch". But do you really think that developer who created the insole or all set of the skate was thinking to change the pitch by the insole?

If you really thought so, anyway, the insole is included "unworthy factor" as I've wrote. Because it's not boots. Definitely it's included the same box with new skates though, we can replace it so easier than we change the holder. Usually Sidas or Graf's custom insoles are chosen for customize. So I don't include the possibility of insole would change the feeling to skate considering.

My opinion is just I've wrote. We should choose skate by the most biggest and untouchable reason. Insole is usually not included there. Or if you don't feel good with genuine insole and its pitch, you can adjust it by holder choice or contouring. So that is not such big issue, I think.

[iSmile 0]

Mimizk

You are wrong again, i write "sole" - not insole! Bottom sole on boot - outsole.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Language difference. A simply explanation is in order.

[Mimizk 114]

Sorry I misread your words!

But it's the same thing, isn't it?

Of course it can be thought enough that the thickness of boots' bottom sole is different at each point of heel and toe, back and forth. But please read again my opinion and think again your point out. I've wrote "I think we should think about untouchable factor firstly when we choose new skates". I mentioned for its example, toe box shape, volume, durability or others. Then I've also mentioned holder, insole or others for unworthy factor. Also the "slope" which comes from the difference of boots' bottom thickness would be included there.

It is not different from holder's pitch. We can fix it easily by shim or contouring. Of course I don't hear all of your opinion so there is a possibility that I've been overlooking your another argument. But for now, I can't find the difference between the "slope" and holder's "pitch".

It's endless that write out all of the things though, for example, tongue is also we can replace. Laces also so. Reebok's lace rocking system also we can choose for small parts. I've wrote toe box shape is untouchable factor but at least VH can change it little by heat because it is made by carbon fiber. Also as same I wrote solidity but we can choose skate fender.

[Mimizk 114]

Add.

I don't think any "pitch" don't be big issue when choosing boots as I've wrote but I think there is a possibility "S shape" of bottom sole make sense for our feeling. But at present, ice hockey boots have almost same pitch so hardly to make difference at bottom shape.

[ktang 34]

The angle of the upper boot / eyelets, in relation to the sole, is the other factor that affects pitch. The Vapors are angled more forwards in the upper boot.

[Mimizk 114]

Pitch... The abstract angle which would be created by all of the things under foot. Ice, runner steel, holder, shim, boots sole, insole, sox, or others if you use another gimmick under foot.
The other upper parts can't have relationship to this pitch. If you felt something from upper part, that is not pitch. That is probably instep fit, volume issue or allowing angle of ankle forward.





S shape (arch)... The curve line which would be created by boots bottom and insole. Arch almost haven't been talked on icehockey discussion. But for example in the cycling world, this have been thought as very important factor for performance. Mysterious factor for me, but I don't think deeply about this because I don't have practical method to change the boots arch or certainly theory about this.
We can easily change the pitch but it's hardly about changing arch.





Green is shims. Pink is contoured runner. Usually we can change pitch by these way.
I've never seen who using shim for backward tilting though, yes we can use it inserting under toe area. There is enough effect if we use even 3mm shim. Of course contouring can provide us backward tilting too. But I'd recommend don't contour runner over +/-2 because it would be filed too much. If you need, it's better to custom by shims.





Finally,

I think most of skate manufactures don't think to create another pitch by thickness of boots bottom sole because today's hockey boots are generally made by carbon fiber. It's expensive than do it by plastic holder. Probably most of makers would think that want to make boots outsole with simple method as possible they can. But there is a possibility that someone who want to make difference about its stiffness and put extra ply for heel area.

CCM done heel lift by new holder. But Bauer have been using the same Tuuk holder for all different models. So perhaps there is a possibility that they change their boots height by carbon ply. Is Bauer announcing as the larger pitch of Vaper than Supreme? Sorry I don't know well current big makers boots...

If I was working on Bauer and I wanted to make difference about the pitch on each 3 models, Vaper, Supreme and Nexus with the same holder, probably I would use the same thickness sole and different shims! It's cheap but maybe commercial things are not allowed as such perfection...

[Larry54 243]

S shape (arch)... The curve line which would be created by boots bottom and insole. Arch almost haven't been talked on icehockey discussion. But for example in the cycling world, this have been thought as very important factor for performance. Mysterious factor for me, but I don't think deeply about this because I don't have practical method to change the boots arch or certainly theory about this.

We can easily change the pitch but it's hardly about changing arch.

The default arch in all skates can be a bit of a problem for people with flat feet or people whose arch is further from the heel than the average person. The latter being my case, the only workable solution so far has been the relatively rigid Graf SIDAS heat moldable insole. Without it, my midfoot floats, and all my weight is solely on my heel and the ball of my foot. The only viable alternative is a thick foam insole like in the VH skates. Life would have been simpler for people like me if the sole was flatter. or at least have a less pronounced S-shape. But the traditional geometry of the holder seems to prevent this.

As far as determining the pitch goes, I find that the angle of the ankle section of the boot is much more important than the angle of the sole of the foot. That's why adding a shim under the insole has hardly any effect compared to adding the same thickness of shim between the holder and the outsole, even though the effect on the angle of the sole of the foot relative to the ice is the same.

[Mimizk 114]

I'm sorry I can't talk about these "arch" story from other sport though,

Who taught me the importance of boots arch was just a insole craftman I've been using. He is making Sidas custom insoles in his professional shop. For example Masahiro Tanaka, NewYork Yankees picher using the craftman's insole every game.

Then he taught me that definitely custom insole can assist our planter arch but it is not completely the same thing as boots arch. His or all of custom insoles as Sidas can suit for each one's planter arch so we feel it very comfortable and better transfer of our foot power. Custom insole surface contact all of bottom surface of our foot as well.

But boots arch is different story. The craftman also said me that it' so important to choose suitable boots for you because his custom insole can't change original arch of the boots.

In cycling, ordinally there is a tending to be liked as flat arch from tall, "stilleto" arch from small. This is just a tending, not absolute.

[boo10 323]

Nice posts Mimzik. I love the drawings you add to your posts!

I think some people are confused as to what "pitch" truly means. Boot cut/angle has absolutely nothing to do with pitch. Pitch is simply the difference in height between the ball of the foot and heel, nothing more, nothing less. Other factors can affect your stride, but they have more to do with knee and ankle angles. Nothing above the foot bed can have an impact on pitch.

[methosb 5]

I use a small shim in the front of my Grafs between boot and holder just to make the forward pitch a little less extreme. Changing the pitch on the runners would have been too much.