Seasoned ice veteran total newbie in roller - lots of technical questions..

[Rubo 0]

When it comes to ice I pretty much tried everything as far as radius, combination radius, cagone,different holders, shims, different pitch angles, orthotics, holder shifting...skate boot modification.. so I can dial in a pretty good set up which is Bauer 7D few different boots from one90 (still my fav) to APX2 running Tuuk 272 with 8.5ft profile on a 7/8” to 1” hollow depending on the season. Since I modify the boots to get the maximum forward flex and push off I don't need longer radius nor deep hollow to keep my agility in check, what I do need is long holder so when I skate backwards I have a large rocking motion to push off. I also don't like to be on my toes, upright, weigh shifting from ¾ back heal to ¼ front so i'm never in a venerable balance position.

Now when it comes ot roller I have no idea, last skate was 20 years a go cheap Bauer 4 line streight i cna rememeber taking off the two middle wheels and loosing agility, so how to translate my ice set up into roller. So lets start with technical.

1) Is there a chassis with adjustable axle, well I know Canstar (Bauer made one):

http://www.google.com/patents/US5505470

what is the exact model if I look for it on ebay.

2) Is there anything new or more modern out there with adjustable axles both in wheel base and height, I could even look at non hockey chassis.

3) 4 vs 5 wheels would 5 wheel chassis give me better flexibility in experimenting, if there is one with adjustable axle, so the choice is 5 small wheels or 4 small to medium wheels (not sure which size would fit into 4 wheel set up and into 5 since wheel base is a factor and profile curve as well.

4) Is there a chassis that Is sold blank so I can drill it myself as far as axle position?

5) Pitch, I need the ratio between the front tower to back tower very high , kind of like figure skate, i'm looking at pictures of chassis all look with very low ratio, and thick shims would offer too much flexibility. What's out there modern or old with high ratio

6) wheel thickness, is it standard or different options, and why? I know on ice we settled on 3mm blades, figure skaters I think it's 3.5mm, what about roller, is it one standard. What about shape of the wheel, I know it will wear in into a triangle but brand new does that curve effect skating?

Cheers.

[Makoto 3]

I learned hockey the opposite way, roller to ice, but consider the offerings from MarsBlade and/or Sprung. I believe their design intent is someone in your situation. Good luck.

[althoma1 574]

The Bauer Chassis you're referring to is the Tuuk rocker. I used that for several years before switching to Sprungs and strongly prefer Sprungs (smoother, faster, better grip, tighter turns - just better at everything). Makoto already pointed you in the right direction - Sprungs and Marsblades. There are good threads on both in this forum - I don't think either has everything you are looking for, but they'll both provide more of an ice like feel than a flat all 80mm or a hilo chassis.

[Rubo 0]

No the tuuk rocker is the one with the middle section moving, i'm talking about the one that is stationery but offers flexibility between flat and rockered non moving set up, look at the patent pictures carefully. The Marsblades is a gimick, the vidoe shows major flaws I see in backwards skating because it shifts your weight for you all these rocker moving concetps are only good in skating forward in a straight line desinged for training not playing.

Now I've looked very hard at sprung, and it's kind of tricky, meaning once I apply the pressure on the front section first wheel goes forward which si good gives me more length on the rocker , but the problem is the second wheel goes in the opposite direction which in theory is bad it increases your wheel base. so both the front and back sections alwyas change the wheel base based on the pressure you apply, which is agasint logic that's if you were skating on ice and your profile woudl change based on teh amount of pressure you apply during each stride.

Second issue is the spring, unless sprung offers different density spring, one fit all is not optimal solution. And from reading other websites the sprung has deficiency in backwards skating which renders half of my game.

i'm not looking to replicate ice movement on roller which is impossible, i'm looking at having optimal movement on roller in all directions, so it might be just straight 4 or some other set up.

Cheers

[Vet88 674]

For 1, 2 and 3, the answer is no. No adjustments in the axle height, no 5 wheels chassis (except goalie skates). Wheels used these days are 4 per chassis in either a HiLo setup 2 x 76mm / 2 x 80mm (Bauer or Mission) or all 80mm (Alkali, Rbk, CCM). Why 80mm? main reason is speed, the smaller the wheel the slower you go.

4: All chassis I know of are pre cast, you would have to try and get a blank direct from a chassis manufacturer, good luck in that hunt.

5:Rbk tri-D chassis had the highest pitch between front and low but this model was last produced 3 years ago. Everything else these days is pretty similar in pitch.

6: One standard with very slight variations between wheel manufacturers of today. Wheel shape really isn't the issue - hardness rating of the wheel, single or mutli pour, surface and dirt (how clean they keep the rink) are the biggest factors in deciding which wheel to use and how this will effect your skating / grip.

What you are asking for just doesn't exist in the inline world. There are some trade offs (Mars or Sprung) but they don't deliver everything you want, especially backwards. So at the end of the day if you want to play inline you will end up with a standard skate that you need to modify as best you can. For the most comfortable boot out there have a look at the Alkali line.

Every day there Ice hockey players all over the world putting on inlines and skating without the features you are trying to get, even a bunch of NHL players a couple of years ago during the lock out strapped on inlines and jumped straight into some games.

However if you toss pronation into the mix (you mentioned orthotics) then that is a different issue altogether.

[DTWings12 3]

Maybe 10-15 years ago you could find something like the sure grip h-405 chassis (or whatever it was that came on the 755 kevlar tacks), but that only let you run rockered v flat. To my knowledge no manufacturer has allowed for adjustable wheelbases. I think the level of customization you are looking for does not exist in roller. Maybe you could try to play with wheel size on a flat setup, but that only allows for set distances/steps. I think there is only one 5 wheel chassis designed for roller, the labeda predator, which is also a 10+ year old chassis.

Back in the day I skated on a rike rocket chassis, which was basically two stamped pieces of titanium that were attached plates that you riveted to the boot. In my mind I thought about making a custom stamped pieces to create whatever wheel/rocker setup I wanted, but I never ended up doing anything with it. I stopped using the chassis because the axle/spacer/chassis spacer situation was too much of a hassle. You might be able to find an old rike chassis on ebay and stamp/machine your own side-plates if you are mechanically inclined.

you can see a pic of the rike rocket here: http://modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/56662-rike-rocket-titanium-chassis/

on pg 82 of the custom ice to inline page there's a guy who made custom chassis for his kid. I think doing something similar is the only way to get the profile you are looking for.

[Rubo 0]

For 1, 2 and 3, the answer is no. No adjustments in the axle height, no 5 wheels chassis (except goalie skates). Wheels used these days are 4 per chassis in either a HiLo setup 2 x 76mm / 2 x 80mm (Bauer or Mission) or all 80mm (Alkali, Rbk, CCM). Why 80mm? main reason is speed, the smaller the wheel the slower you go.

4: All chassis I know of are pre cast, you would have to try and get a blank direct from a chassis manufacturer, good luck in that hunt.

"5:Rbk tri-D chassis had the highest pitch between front and low but this model was last produced 3 years ago. Everything else these days is pretty similar in pitch."

5:Rbk tri-D chassis had the highest pitch between front and low but this model was last produced 3 years ago. Everything else these days is pretty similar in pitch.

6: One standard with very slight variations between wheel manufacturers of today. Wheel shape really isn't the issue - hardness rating of the wheel, single or mutli pour, surface and dirt (how clean they keep the rink) are the biggest factors in deciding which wheel to use and how this will effect your skating / grip.

What you are asking for just doesn't exist in the inline world. There are some trade offs (Mars or Sprung) but they don't deliver everything you want, especially backwards. So at the end of the day if you want to play inline you will end up with a standard skate that you need to modify as best you can. For the most comfortable boot out there have a look at the Alkali line.

Every day there Ice hockey players all over the world putting on inlines and skating without the features you are trying to get, even a bunch of NHL players a couple of years ago during the lock out strapped on inlines and jumped straight into some games.

However if you toss pronation into the mix (you mentioned orthotics) then that is a different issue altogether.

It looks like tri-D is not a 4 straight line, is there one with a 4 straight line with highest pitch ratio, lowest to the ground and shortest wheelbase.

Cheers.

[althoma1 574]

No the tuuk rocker is the one with the middle section moving, i'm talking about the one that is stationery but offers flexibility between flat and rockered non moving set up, look at the patent pictures carefully. The Marsblades is a gimick, the vidoe shows major flaws I see in backwards skating because it shifts your weight for you all these rocker moving concetps are only good in skating forward in a straight line desinged for training not playing.

Now I've looked very hard at sprung, and it's kind of tricky, meaning once I apply the pressure on the front section first wheel goes forward which si good gives me more length on the rocker , but the problem is the second wheel goes in the opposite direction which in theory is bad it increases your wheel base. so both the front and back sections alwyas change the wheel base based on the pressure you apply, which is agasint logic that's if you were skating on ice and your profile woudl change based on teh amount of pressure you apply during each stride.

Second issue is the spring, unless sprung offers different density spring, one fit all is not optimal solution. And from reading other websites the sprung has deficiency in backwards skating which renders half of my game.

i'm not looking to replicate ice movement on roller which is impossible, i'm looking at having optimal movement on roller in all directions, so it might be just straight 4 or some other set up.

Cheers

My mistake - I just quickly skimmed your post and hadn't looked at the patent. You're right, that's definitely not the Tuuk rocker - I did have the chassis referred to in that document, but it was about 20 years ago so it I didn't even think about it until I clicked through the link. It was a plastic chassis that was on the 90s Bauer skates. It had a plastic insert in it that you could install with the hole up or down to either use the chassis flat or rockered. I believe they used all 72mm wheels.

It was the Bauer "Off Ice" line of skates - H3 and H5 are two of the models that I recall having that chassis. I had both of those skates at some point in the 90s. Here's a good picture of the H3's with the chassis:

Someone has a pair of Bauer H5 "off ice" skates on Kijiji in Toronto for $35: http://www.kijiji.ca/v-skates-blades/city-of-toronto/mens-size-10-bauer-h5-inline-skates-for-sale-35-00/1058559821?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true. Personally, I'd never want to go back to that after using Sprungs, but I believe that's the chassis in the patent document.

[Rubo 0]

I knew it existed just forgot about the exact model, I think I had similar ones 20 years a go.

Cheers

[Vet88 674]

It looks like tri-D is not a 4 straight line, is there one with a 4 straight line with highest pitch ratio, lowest to the ground and shortest wheelbase.

Cheers.

There aren't a lot of aftermarket options for what you are after, Labeda Hummer or an Alkali frame is available from Inline Warehouse or Hockey Monkey. Wheelbase will only change if they are made for a smaller wheel, if they take all 80mm wheels then the wheel base is a fixed length.

With the Tri-D it came standard with a 72mm wheel in the front and this gave you a small rocker between the 1st and 2nd wheel. If you wanted an all flat setup you fitted a 74mm wheel to the front. The idea was smaller wheels on the front gave you better turning ability and the larger wheels on the back gave you better speed.

[Rubo 0]

I think people have misconception that when we turn we turn on the front section of the boot regardless if it's ice or roller, when in reality if you have an upright boot like bauer supreme and you tie up your skates all the way you're actually turning more on your heel then ball of your feet. Also depends on the type of turn, around the net you're more in 3/4 front section, a sharp turn at 180 degree mostly heel. That's why on ice the combination radius never really worked for me, since I constantly shift weight from heel to front and front to heel, uneven profile makes it awkward. I'm starting to understand why many in roller after trial and error go back to simple straight 4 line without any hi-lo or rockered set ups.

The only question left for me to answer is with my skate size 7 do I go with all 72...74...or 76.

76 gives me 11.96” that's if there is no spacing between wheels at all.

74 gives me 11.64” length no spacing

72 gives me 11.32” no spacing

Tuuk 263 ice blade is 11.5” but it's rockered

Tuuk 272 ice blade is 11.75” (mine) even more rockered on the corners

Questions:

1) what is the minimum spacing between wheels without getting anything like dirt or other particles getting stuck or interfering during skating?

I'm leaning towards tri-D with all 74's or if there is somthging else out there that would fit the bill of low to the ground, high pitch ratio and short wheel base based on 74mm.

Cheers

[Justin 1933 134]

There is one key reason not to use a rocker chassis - Stopping. If you rocker your chassis, you will not stop as fast. More urethane on the ground = quicker stops. We made a lot of changes with our skates after the first year we worked with all 80mm wheels. Our first chassis were too high and the pitch was not optimal. We made numerous changes to the chassis for year two, as well as changes to the boot. What we got, was a perfectly balanced feel.

Also, good luck finding 74mm wheels. I can't think of anyone that makes that size. I would recommend a 76mm wheel, as the 72mm wheel will increase your stopping distance. When I worked at Mission, I changed the Hi-Lo front two wheels from 72mm to 76mm. This helped with toe slip and balance.

[Rubo 0]

JT, that's what confusing to me, on ice the shorter the radius the easier it is to stop, based in your input looks like on roller it's the opposite the more surface of the wheel touches the ground the easier to stop which is against any logic. From what I remember skating on roller 20 years a go, I could never stop like on ice for obvious reasons and I played outside on concrete so even more harder to stop the only way I could compensate is more of a sudden 180 turn rather then stop, now in this case I would think a smaller wheel would give a sharper turn angle. Unless the technology progressed so much over 20 years that there is a way of stopping on concrete, well I saw it in a sprung video on indoor surface it looked like at least you can turn your feet sidewys and not take a major dive and break your ankles but I'm guessing the surface playas a major role in the ability to stop since you need a little slippage to tunr your feet sideways..

The reason I bug you guys so much on technical stuff without committing to buying stuff is when I look back and the time i've spent experimenting on ice it was too many changes too many experiments and too much frustration, you make a change get excited get to the rink and after taking two strides you hate it and forced to play for an hour or two suffering or changing skates, you get out of rhythm and don't enjoy it. So I'm trying to narrow it down to maybe one or two experiments instead of spending the whole summer trying out 20 things.

Where I do agree with you is the boot is a major part of the design and pitch of the boot plays a major role on the chassis design, that's whyI asked about adjustable axle chassis which will allow me to alter it for any boot and try out different pitch angles and rockered vs non rockered, hi-lo, tri-di...

I usually don't put too much stock what the pros are using when it comes to ice because a lot of them rely on EQM input. Now when it comes to roller it;s safe to say each pro is his onw EQM, so I would put a little more stock into what they use (i'm talking about full season roller pros not ice pros that switch just for summer months), the questison is, what do the pros use today, I mean the ones that are superior skaters with lots of agility, are they all on sprungs, straight 4s, hi-lo…..rockered...

Cheers

[Vet88 674]

The Tri-D is a multi sized wheel frame, from front to rear you have 72mm, 76mm, 76mm, 80mm. I replaced the 72mm wheel with a 74mm wheel to remove the rocker. Most frames have around a 2mm gap between new wheels. If you are a size 7 skate then you would purchase a medium sized frame (for boot sizes 6 - 9).

I don't know any current playing pros that are on Sprungs or Marsblades or Tuuks or any kind of rockered chassis. The major brands are Mission, Bauer, Alkakli, Rbk / CCM and Tour.

Pat Lee (ex team USA) used Missions last time I saw him, Dave Hammond (ex Team Canada) is on Alkali's. Last year at the IIHF worlds I didn't see anything else other than major brands. I know a few guys who play on US pro teams (rink rat ob's, Next Gen, Outcasts, Snipers and others) and all are using a major brand skate (even those that have taken an ice boot and converted it to inline are using a major brand boot). You can google past IIHF or FIRS games and see everyone wearing major brand skates.

As Justin said, the more urethane you have on the surface, the more grip and stopping power you have. Not unlike a car versus bike for stopping power. And for ice, whilst a shorter radius may let you turn easier and stop easier, for out and out stopping power a longer radius will always stop you over a shorter distance once the edges are dug in.

[Invert 13]

74mm is a dead wheel size, as are 78mm and 64mm. Nobody is making these wheel sizes anymore. If you are looking for a setup that uses one of these, then your options are going to be very limited to wheels that are over 5 years old.

[QuanSuDude 1]

As a strictly roller player, I would not waste my time with any of these custom frames. They are gimmicks to me.

Go with a major brand skate, and keep it simple. You don't need to modify them; they are good out of the box.

You'll save time, and energy.

[Justin 1933 134]

As for "Pro players," I cannot think of anyone that is using a Marsblade or Sprung. Also, wheels have evolved in the past 20 years and good skates can stop on concrete, asphalt, tile surfaces, etc..

BTW, Pat Lee has been with us at Alkali for the past three years

[althoma1 574]

I've never officiated a "Pro" event/division, but have reffed at NARCh (North American Roller Hockey Championship) qualifiers as well as the Ontario championships and I did see a couple Sprungs, but they were on Gold/Silver level adult players (Pro, Platinum, Gold and Silver are the division levels from highest to lowest). The Platinum division players all used either a Hi-lo setup (80mm in the rear and 76mm front) with Mission or Bauer skates or an all 80mm setup with Alkali, Tour or CCM/Reebok. I haven't seen Marsblades in any of the high level events or even in local men's leagues I play and ref in. From the pictures of Pro events I've seen they also seem to be using either all 80mm or Hi-lo setups like the Platinum players.

With that said, I don't think it necessarily means the Hi-lo and all 80mm chassis are superior to Sprungs. Most of the high level roller players grew up using either a flat or hi-lo chassis or both so they're comfortable using them and see no reason to change. There are teams that are sponsored by manufacturers like Mission, Alkali and Tour - I'm guessing that players on those team likely receive great deals on sponsor products so it's much more affordable to go with those skates. Even for non-sponsored players it's much cheaper and hassle free to just stick with a stock skate and chassis vs. buying a separate chassis and putting it on an ice or roller boot.

[Rubo 0]

Well I know politics or sponsorships always play a major role in evolution and innovation or lack of innovation in any sport specially our sport. In fact I would argue that intellectual proeprty is what is holding us back from revolutionary products rather then evolutionary since most of the competition between campaniles is in the court not on an open market. Now when it comes to pros ice or roller I only pay attention to the ones who are superior skaters and pay a close attention to what they use, some are naturally talented some get there with help from modifying their equipment and are less influenced by sponsorship and wearing your latest skate model.

I did watch USA team traing camp try out on youtube and also didn't see any gimmick design skates, also didn't see any sudden stop motions which resemble ice , so as much as it progressed it's still way behind and will never get there.

I did stop at a local play it again so I can see both old and new designs and I have to say 80mm looked huge compared to the old 72mm so most likely a straight 76 or hi-lo 76/72 if there is one out there in sr size. All I saw is 80/72 or / 80 76 in the sr sz hi-lo so no strihgt 76 only straight 80 unless I go to jr size. The only question is how far should the wheels stick out from both ends, same as ice, less.. more...? Second issue is positioning should the balls of my feet be exactly between the 1st wheel and second wheel or under the second wheel? Same with the heel main heel pressure sitting on top of the wheel or between two wheels? Logic tells me between wheels, but logic does not always prevail.

Cheers

[SlaterC42 51]

I could be wrong, but I think Alkali skates are pitched a little more forward than Mission/Bauer, but the differences in wheel setup makes up for it (straight 80 vs Hi-Lo). I don't know if you'll be able to find a 72/76 Hi-Lo or a straight 76 frame as most are either 76/80 or all 80's for more speed. It seems like you're over thinking it a bit... you're never going to be able to make roller feel EXACTLY the same as ice. I would just try on different setups and see what feels the most comfortable to you. You can always experiment with different wheel hardnesses and bearing setups for maximum speed/grip.

[Asian Tomatoe 30]

The Alkali skates are pitched forward in the boot and the chassis. The rear tower is taller than other 80mm chassis and the closest ice skate pitch to alkali would be grafs. Coming back to roller from ice found alkali's pitch more comfortable than the current mission hi LP 76/80 and the labeda straight frame on the reeboks. In the latter two, I would fall backwards in sharp turns because I felt like I was on my heels or would tip to far forward and lose my edge to replicate the ice feel.

As Slater said, don't over think it. it's a different game almost and different mechanics. You can do some similar moves but it'll never be totally the same.

[Rubo 0]

That's why I said earlier based on my ice experiments I'm tired of too many experiments so narrowed it down to straight 76 and 76/72. Are there any old frames that were straight 76 or hi-lo 76/72

cheers.

[Asian Tomatoe 30]

the old sure grip frames if you can find them were straight 76. there are some old Hilo frames on ebay that are 80/72. I have never seen 76/72 but I have run 76/68 on a Hilo before. the pre Bauer missions, Redstar, Nike, gear, Easton konki, tour are 80/72 Hilo.

the labeda sensor chassis was a great chassis but was a 80/80/72/76 setup. also, the Easton big wheel magnesium chassis were great too.

best is to search eBay or used gear shops. good luck

[DTWings12 3]

There used to be an old kuzak frame that was made for 68/76 hilo split.

[Rubo 0]

I found a few Koho FR400 frames online they take 76mm straight, for wheels i think Labeda Asphalt (outdoor tennis court my main playing surface ) which is 608, I'm confused about axles, that is standard what is not, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm....I found a cheap new set of Bones swiss 7mm will these fit the frames and the wheels? Also confused about Asphalt wheels some websites sell 80A hardness some sell 84A, is that a misprint or old vs newer model..? I'm only 150lb, but with very strong push off power so which hardness is best?

Cheers.