Fixing Pronating Skate

[Bbd94 26]

I've done searches and a ton of research and seems most of the threads are pretty old or don't address my immediate concern.

I recently went to a podiatry and it confirmed my suspicions that my right ankle pronates moderately. I've talked to a pretty well knowledgable LHS employee who said that the best bet for me is to do the custom orthotic footbed route and if that doesn't work try custom skates.

I just wanted to ask your guys opinions because I asked him about shims and they don't do that there. He said remounting the holder is definitely out of the question because it's too close to the edge.

Are shims really that hard? He said it's a shot in the dark, but isn't that a ton cheaper than custom footbeds which could cost me hundreds of dollars? I don't really need them for my shoes, it bothers me but I can handle it as long as it doesn't get worse. I've had the same problem my entire life I think

EDIT: if someone could explain the most full proof method that would be preferred. I know there are measurements when you shim, what should it be around starting and what's the max you would do? Thanks

EDIT: if someone could explain the most full proof method that would be preferred. I know there are measurements when you shim, what should it be around starting and what's the max you would do? Thanks

[Davetronz 109]

I typically go insole (like Superfeet or Sole) > shims > move holder, in that order.

I'll only look into custom insoles in certain situations. Shims typically work better, IMO.

There is no "fool-proof" solution that will work for everyone 100% guaranteed. Too many variables.

I can't validate as to whether custom skates would help you because I don't know your exact situation or why your foot is pronating, plus any other factors such as width, depth, etc. In fact, I'd strongly suggest trying the above before looking at custom skates.

Where are you located? Perhaps someone here can recommend a local shop that would be more confident to put in shims or get you fixed up with more certainty.

Shims shouldn't cost close to custom foot beds. But it all depends where you're located.

[Bbd94 26]

I'm located in Northern VA but can travel anywhere as far as DC and Maryland.

The pediatrist said more than likely I've been pronating since birth on my right foot. I have really flat feet on my right and a little bit of a knock knee as well. Seems like I have a better arch on my left which is always perfect skating and walking.

Yeah the guy I asked just said shims are too random to try but then recommended I get custom skates for $1000 dollars. I've tried Superfeet to no avail so I may have to go to shims next

[Davetronz 109]

I'm located in Northern VA but can travel anywhere as far as DC and Maryland.

The pediatrist said more than likely I've been pronating since birth on my right foot. I have really flat feet on my right and a little bit of a knock knee as well. Seems like I have a better arch on my left which is always perfect skating and walking.

Yeah the guy I asked just said shims are too random to try but then recommended I get custom skates for $1000 dollars. I've tried Superfeet to no avail so I may have to go to shims next

Would recommend trying shimming the holders first. Someone who's more familiar with your area can maybe chime in and recommend a place for you to go.

I don't think customs are the step you should take to correct this pronation problem because the podiatrist is seeing the issue OUT of skates when you're just on your bare feet. You're likely to pronate in any skate unless the holder is shimmed or moved. Did the podiatrist suggest custom orthotic insoles for your shoes or your skates - or was this discussed at all?

Curious, did you ask the LHS tech who was recommending the $1000 skates exactly "how" he thought the custom skate would solve your pronation problem? What was his assessment of your current skate, and how would the custom skate alleviate your issues?

[Bbd94 26]

Just to clarify I wasn't knocking the LHS employee I spoke with. He gave me a lot of information to work with, I just wanna get more opinions to make a better educated guess before I drop that kind of money being a college student

I've got haglunds on the same foot so the custom skate would help on that. Combining that with an orthotic would help both issues but I'm mainly concerned about the pronation

If I could fix the pronation without custom orthotics that would be ideal. I know there are schools of thought fixing the actual foot or the tech. Need as many opinions as possible haha

[Vet88 674]

Just to clarify I wasn't knocking the LHS employee I spoke with. He gave me a lot of information to work with, I just wanna get more opinions to make a better educated guess before I drop that kind of money being a college student

I've got haglunds on the same foot so the custom skate would help on that. Combining that with an orthotic would help both issues but I'm mainly concerned about the pronation

If I could fix the pronation without custom orthotics that would be ideal. I know there are schools of thought fixing the actual foot or the tech. Need as many opinions as possible haha

If you haven't read this before, I recommend you do so. It may be written over 14 years ago but everything in it about pronation is just as valid today.

http://www.ladyinredcreations.com/Ankles_Down.htm

If you were looking at any other skate other than a Graf, the LHS employee is semi right about moving the holder. If you only need to move it by 1mm or so then most skates can accommodate this, you have to remove the holder, file away at the mounting holes in the holder then rerivet. Back filling the holes is not necessary, or so I have found in my experience. Or you could purchase a cobra holder, profile your blade drill the boot and attach the holder. Or you could purchase Grafs that have the Cobra holder attached by screws, remove the holder, file away at the mounting holes, reattach. This last option is the easiest route for moving the holder on a ice hockey skate, you can do it yourself and with very little cost other than the initial purchase of the skates.

Shimming is a valid method, you just need to find someone somewhere (figure or speed skating folk know more about this than ice hockey people) in your area who can do it. Having tried shims and orthotics, I went the Graf route and moved the holder and haven't looked back.

And with customs skates you still have the same issue as with any other skate, getting the holder mounted in the correct position.

[Bbd94 26]

Im assuming the Graf holders can't be used with Bauer runners though?

It's getting to the point where it's keeping me up at night thinking of how to get this issue fixed. Which absolutely sucks lol. It seems the orthotics that they gave me aren't very good and talking to some family members, I hear they can be hit or miss even with customs. Right now the ones in my shoes rub my heel so bad when I'm walking they are useless. It's only going to flare up the haglunds even though it may fix the pronation.

I think I'll head down to Kettler Iceplex (where the Caps practice) or my local ice house and see if I can get away with shims first. If anyone in the DC area knows anyone who specializes custom insoles for hockey skates that would be great. I can imagine some of the guys on the Caps have pronating issues. Chimera comes to mind

[Chadd 916]

The local youth teams travel down into MD and VA for games and none of the guys I asked would recommend anyone down there.

[smcgreg 81]

Im assuming the Graf holders can't be used with Bauer runners though?

It's getting to the point where it's keeping me up at night thinking of how to get this issue fixed. Which absolutely sucks lol. It seems the orthotics that they gave me aren't very good and talking to some family members, I hear they can be hit or miss even with customs. Right now the ones in my shoes rub my heel so bad when I'm walking they are useless. It's only going to flare up the haglunds even though it may fix the pronation.

I think I'll head down to Kettler Iceplex (where the Caps practice) or my local ice house and see if I can get away with shims first. If anyone in the DC area knows anyone who specializes custom insoles for hockey skates that would be great. I can imagine some of the guys on the Caps have pronating issues. Chimera comes to mind

for pronation, insoles are unlikely to be the fix. If anything, the correct approach for skating would be opposite that for walking/running. By that I mean, a lateral shim or insole that raises the lateral side of the foot would be more likely to work. Custom skates won't do anything unless they come without the holder mounted and you can get the holder installed by a knowledgable person with experitise in this issue. (**Caveat,... custom might fit if the source of your pronation is simply an ill-fitted skate. If that's the case though, a retail, off the shelf better fitting skate would do the same thing).

As far as going to the Caps facility, don't get your hopes up. Players who pronate and have done so their entire life, likey have adapted to a neutral holder orientation and therefore don't have it addressed. For example, my son has terribly flat feet. He can't run in shoes without an orhtotic, but since he's skated for 6 yr, he's become adapted and is a very good skater. (I still plan to move the holders on his next pair of skates, but if I didn't, he would probably skate "well" for the next 10 years without.) My point is, most skate people who are "in the biz", don't bother with holder alignment and simply focus on boot fit and blade profile. The only people who would likely be able to help you are figure skaters or speed skaters. Along the lines of the latter, it still burns my butt that the best feature of the MLX skate was not implemented with the Mako, that being the adjustable holder. ugghhh..

Anyway, your best bet is likely an external shim, or better yet, moving the holder medially. Finding somebody to do the latter in something other than a Graf is likekly to be tough.

[Bbd94 26]

for pronation, insoles are unlikely to be the fix. If anything, the correct approach for skating would be opposite that for walking/running. By that I mean, a lateral shim or insole that raises the lateral side of the foot would be more likely to work. Custom skates won't do anything unless they come without the holder mounted and you can get the holder installed by a knowledgable person with experitise in this issue. (**Caveat,... custom might fit if the source of your pronation is simply an ill-fitted skate. If that's the case though, a retail, off the shelf better fitting skate would do the same thing).

As far as going to the Caps facility, don't get your hopes up. Players who pronate and have done so their entire life, likey have adapted to a neutral holder orientation and therefore don't have it addressed. For example, my son has terribly flat feet. He can't run in shoes without an orhtotic, but since he's skated for 6 yr, he's become adapted and is a very good skater. (I still plan to move the holders on his next pair of skates, but if I didn't, he would probably skate "well" for the next 10 years without.) My point is, most skate people who are "in the biz", don't bother with holder alignment and simply focus on boot fit and blade profile. The only people who would likely be able to help you are figure skaters or speed skaters. Along the lines of the latter, it still burns my butt that the best feature of the MLX skate was not implemented with the Mako, that being the adjustable holder. ugghhh..

Anyway, your best bet is likely an external shim, or better yet, moving the holder medially. Finding somebody to do the latter in something other than a Graf is likekly to be tough.

That actually sucks regarding the Mako because I was thinking that could've been a possibility.

Unfortunately Kettler and my local ice house is my only option other than Total Hockey, which probably wouldn't be able to help me.

Now if I do get shims and the problem is fixed, would it be pretty easy to get them done again on future skates? Like its relatively easy to duplicate if I just document the measurements?

@chadd Northern VA is actually a growing hotbed for hockey, we just now got the major retailers in though haha. One of the Total Hockey sharpeners used to work for the Caps but he's gone. Have some knowledgeable guys from Hockey Giant and our ice house but it's mostly teenagers..

[smcgreg 81]

That actually sucks regarding the Mako because I was thinking that could've been a possibility.

Unfortunately Kettler and my local ice house is my only option other than Total Hockey, which probably wouldn't be able to help me.

Now if I do get shims and the problem is fixed, would it be pretty easy to get them done again on future skates? Like its relatively easy to duplicate if I just document the measurements?

@chadd Northern VA is actually a growing hotbed for hockey, we just now got the major retailers in though haha. One of the Total Hockey sharpeners used to work for the Caps but he's gone. Have some knowledgeable guys from Hockey Giant and our ice house but it's mostly teenagers..

I'm in Makos and I've been fiddling with this issue for years. Mine is likely different than yours because I've been skating off and on for 45 years. I never pronated before (or at least, not until recently), but now that I'm an old fart, my body has changed and my center of mass on my right skate has moved medially because I have a more valgus knee than I did 20+ years ago. My left side is still "perfect". So, my pronation is not horrible, but for somebody who didn't pronate before, it drives me nutz. I've tried custom insoles, internal shims, external shims and now I'm moving the holders. I'm not sure if I'll be successful with the Makos because there isnt' a lot a room to move the holders on these. These are the best fitting skates I have had in 20+ years (maybe more), but that doesn't fix the issue... for me. Again, if your skates simply don't fit well, that could be part of your problem and different, better fitting skates might fix it. There are some people like that that I can spot a mile away. There are kids on my son's hockey team that I know pronate because they have ill -fitting skates. In cases like mine and my son, it's anatomical/biomechanical, not skate fit, though.

[Vet88 674]

Im assuming the Graf holders can't be used with Bauer runners though?

Unfortunately not. The steel for most graf runners I have seen hasn't been that great which is why I switched to BlackSteel runners from Step.

[MThockeydad 469]

It's getting to the point where it's keeping me up at night thinking of how to get this issue fixed. Which absolutely sucks lol. It seems the orthotics that they gave me aren't very good and talking to some family members, I hear they can be hit or miss even with customs. Right now the ones in my shoes rub my heel so bad when I'm walking they are useless. It's only going to flare up the haglunds even though it may fix the pronation.

Here's a link that vet88 posted in another recent thread. I found it to be a VERY good read:

I have / had the same problem. Whilst pain can come from a wrong fitting boot, if you pronate this is magnified many fold. It is because your foot rotates in the boot, pushing the outside of your foot hard up against the outside edge of the boot, this creates massive pressure along the outside of the foot and insides of the ankle.

Read this article, it is one of the better ones around about pronation in hockey skates:

http://www.ladyinredcreations.com/Ankles_Down.htm

If you can find a pair of grafs that fit you then this is a good choice for players who have pronation issues. As long as you buy Graf boots in which the holder is attached with screws, it is relatively easy to move the Cobra holder inwards to address foot alignment issues. Remove the holder, file away at the screw holes then reattach. I did my own skates by trial and error, moving the holder inwards a small amount each time until the skate felt comfortable and vertical under my foot. pm if you need any further info. I preferred this route to orthotics, some here have had success with orthotics and shims so good luck with whatever option you choose.

I doubt anyone here can advise as to which boot will fit your foot, you either need to get fitted or try and work it out yourself by trial and error. Whilst I'm in Grafs at the moment (G5 ultras) I'm going to move soon to a pair from VH. However as I'm overseas I'm going to make molds of both feet for them to work from so the boots will hopefully fit me without any issues from day one.

Sorry I can't help with "how much" to move the holder medially.

#1 Get skates that fit your feet really well. Deal with the Haglunds bumps. Add orthotics to deal with arch/foot issues, but I wouldn't count on them to fix the pronation.

#2 modify holder mount as necessary to compensate for the pronation. After reading that article, I'd go first to moving the holder instead of shims or orthotics.

Where there's a will, there's a way. If you have to go to t-nuts and bolts and do it yourself, it's worth it. Read up in the Ice-Inline conversion thread to see how our roller hockey brethren do it.

Just one example of a shop that offers custom blade alignment services. (in Edmonton)

http://www.proskate.ca/blade-alignment

I'm sure noicing could offer the same, talk to "jimmy". I've used him only for profiling and sharpening, but can't say enough good about his services.

There are a couple of other people on this forum who also offer custom boot fitting services.

What I'm saying is that instead of spending hundreds hoping that your ortho will magically fit you with orthotics, think about spending a hundred or two with a custom hockey boot fitter to get the RIGHT skate and get the holder mounted correctly for you. Instead of talking to someone who knows feet and nothing about hockey; talk to someone who knows a lot (maybe not as much as your ortho) about feet, and also a lot about hockey.

[SeanCornell91 13]

Just to clarify I wasn't knocking the LHS employee I spoke with. He gave me a lot of information to work with, I just wanna get more opinions to make a better educated guess before I drop that kind of money being a college student

I've got haglunds on the same foot so the custom skate would help on that. Combining that with an orthotic would help both issues but I'm mainly concerned about the pronation

If I could fix the pronation without custom orthotics that would be ideal. I know there are schools of thought fixing the actual foot or the tech. Need as many opinions as possible haha

I work for Superfeet and I'm one of the reps for the Mid-Atlantic as well as all of the hockey dealers in New England. Feel free to shoot me DM if you'd like, but I'll help you as much as I can from here. For our products, your best bet in Northern VA would be the Total Hockey location in Sterling.

First things first, every one pronates. It's a completely natural movement and it's part of normal foot function - your foot HAS to do it. It becomes an "issue" if it's happening too much and can cause a number of different injuries - Plantar Fasciitis, Haglunds Deformity (Bauer bump), Shin Splints, IT Band issues, etc. etc.

Skate modifications are a great way to make your foot feel more comfortable in the skate when you're not skating; however, from a podiatry standpoint - not the standpoint of a Superfeet rep but based on podiatry - the only way you can limit the amount of pronation that's taking place so that your foot is staying neutral is to stabilize the heel so that your subtalar and midtarsal joints are not opening up excessive amounts. Skate mods wouldn't make contact with those joints. That's how the role of an insole/orthotic would be different from the role of the skate. Again, if you don't believe me, ask your podiatrist. Not here to help sell product, just answer questions that people may have and help where I can with issues like you're experiencing.

[Bbd94 26]

Thanks Sean, I sent you a DM under "Probation" (stupid iPhone autocorrect)

I appreciate all of your guys' feedback! I've read other posts how it's made people want to give up hockey and I can definitely relate. I'm noticing more of it in real life. Trying to walk differently and using cheap inserts is starting to cause me pain.