technique vs skate stiffness

[Hockeydog 8]

Not sure if this belongs here or in the equipment section, but since it is less of a question about a specific skate I thought it might be better here.

So I am about 190 lbs, lower ( but not lowest) level beer league and below average skating ability for that level of play. I am wondering if I need a less stiff boot. Here is why I ask.

When I tie my current skate up pretty snug ( not death grip ) I feel pretty at one with the boot, but I can not get an inside edge very well, even with freshly sharpened ( 1/2") blades. Blades just scrape across the ice. They are very responsive in that I can just stand on the ice and start a glide with just a very small weight shift forward, like almost just thinking I want to glide will get me moving. I think that is good, but the lack of inside edge is really bad on face-offs or accelerating. If I tie them looser, I can get a OK inside edge, likely from the boot itself pronating on my foot. But then I lose the close fit that skates should have, and my heel can feel less connected. I lose my feel for the ice and feel dopey! I am in a mid-level boot right now ( 28K) which I think would be a typical recommendation for a 1-2x per week skater. Anyone else go thru something like this, or coached a player that had this issue. Because I get beat to pucks so much in sprint type situations, I can't vouche for my techique. I can describe what I should be doing, but in game situations I am not exactly thinking about where my foot should be. I do stay in reasonable shape and have played league tennis, where I have no problems getting to just about any ball. If you read this and have any thoughts, ( that are constructive, please LOL ) I'd like to hear them. Thanks.

[Vet88 674]

You hit the nail on the head with your second sentence. As hard as it is to hear the only answer is practice practice practice. Changing your boots isn't going to make a huge difference unless the fit is poor which by the sounds of it you have an ok fit.

[chk hrd 164]

In my experience when a skater with below average skating abilities uses to stiff of a boot their skating suffers. You said when you tie them loose you get a good inside edge and that is more than likely because the boot is moving over more. With new skaters a stiff boots seems to cause them not to bend their knees enough so they bend more at the waste and get out of wack. A softer boot is more forgiving. You can be a much lazier skater on them. With a stiffer boot you need better technique to get the best out of them.

[YesLanges 127]

Try bending your ankle more next time you lace up before you do anything else. If you're extending your foot or pointing your toes at all, you're going to have trouble bending your knees and you won't necessarily realize it's your lacing more than your skates.

[Hockeydog 8]

Try bending your ankle more next time you lace up before you do anything else. If you're extending your foot or pointing your toes at all, you're going to have trouble bending your knees and you won't necessarily realize it's your lacing more than your skates.

I am pretty flexed when I tie them up. I tap my heel into the ground, then hold that position while I tie them up. Only the very back of the blade is touching the rubber flooring. I also use the extra long laces that came with the RBK's and do a pre-lace. I get the laces thru all the eyelets loosely, then do another heel tap before lacing to whatever tightness. Now my calf is close to the tendon guard, but I'd think if I tied them with my calf farther from the tendon guard I wouldn't get good heel lock. I will try that tonight though. Thanks

[Solo_man11 9]

Not sure if this belongs here or in the equipment section, but since it is less of a question about a specific skate I thought it might be better here.

So I am about 190 lbs, lower ( but not lowest) level beer league and below average skating ability for that level of play. I am wondering if I need a less stiff boot. Here is why I ask.

When I tie my current skate up pretty snug ( not death grip ) I feel pretty at one with the boot, but I can not get an inside edge very well, even with freshly sharpened ( 1/2") blades. Blades just scrape across the ice. They are very responsive in that I can just stand on the ice and start a glide with just a very small weight shift forward, like almost just thinking I want to glide will get me moving. I think that is good, but the lack of inside edge is really bad on face-offs or accelerating. If I tie them looser, I can get a OK inside edge, likely from the boot itself pronating on my foot. But then I lose the close fit that skates should have, and my heel can feel less connected. I lose my feel for the ice and feel dopey! I am in a mid-level boot right now ( 28K) which I think would be a typical recommendation for a 1-2x per week skater. Anyone else go thru something like this, or coached a player that had this issue. Because I get beat to pucks so much in sprint type situations, I can't vouche for my techique. I can describe what I should be doing, but in game situations I am not exactly thinking about where my foot should be. I do stay in reasonable shape and have played league tennis, where I have no problems getting to just about any ball. If you read this and have any thoughts, ( that are constructive, please LOL ) I'd like to hear them. Thanks.

I am about 155 pounds and I crank my laces throughout the boot especially in the ankle. I wish I had a little stiffer skates and but am happy with the fit. Like others have said, try to bend your knees more, I have noticed in beer leagues that a lot of players get beat to the puck because they are just floating around.

How far apart are your feet as well? When your knees are bent and your feet are not too close together, the skate will have a better angle of attack instead of that feeling you are experiencing with your inside edges.

My opinion and what I usually do is when bursting for acceleration; the first 1-4 strides will be shorter strides and then I lengthen my strides after. Also, try and keep your feet moving, most people get beat to the puck because they just stand there waiting. IMO, if your skates fit then it's most likely your technique. You could also try and get your steel profiled with a more aggressive lean depending what position you play.

[Hockeydog 8]

How far apart are your feet as well? When your knees are bent and your feet are not too close together, the skate will have a better angle of attack instead of that feeling you are experiencing with your inside edges.

My feet are pretty close togther. I guess it comes from the Laura Stamm taught style of bringing your feet all the way together. Maybe that style worked when skates were not as stiff, but your comment makes sense to me. I also remember asking one of my teams really good skaters ( former Jr level) to give me a pointer or two. He said my knees were bent ok, but not centered under my body. He said something about my butt sticking out and up. I thanked him but I don't think it fully computed in the moment because I do bring me feet very close vs wide tracking. Now I wonder if he meant under from front to back, instead of just not leaving them out to the side so much. If I use a wall and get into my skating stance and back up until my butt touches the wall, my feet are nowhere near the wall, even though my knees are bent and I am fairly low to the ground. I think I need to keep my current skates tighter laced and see if I can learn to use the edges better. I neither tighten them really tight, and don't use a really stiff skate. Loosely tied skates may have really prevented me from learning correct technique. I am also really beat after a shift from inefficient mechanics I am sure. Thanks all for the feedback.

[chk hrd 164]

If your skates fit good the tightness of your skate shouldn't affect your technique to much. My son had a former NHL player as a coach and he hardly tied his skates at all. I think he did it just to keep the laces from dragging. My skates are tied pretty loose. I think most people over tighten their laces because of their youth. parents always seem to over tighten them. Let the kids start tying them early and they figure out they don't have to be cinched down.

Head straight up, shoulders over knees, knees over toes, almost like you are stopped hallway before sitting down. I have always preferred a full leg extension stride bringing the feet back closer together. I feel that the shorter, choppy stride doesn't maximize your leg's power and expends more energy. But that's just my opinion on the way I learned and have always taught.

[Chadd 916]

If your skates fit good the tightness of your skate shouldn't affect your technique to much. My son had a former NHL player as a coach and he hardly tied his skates at all. I think he did it just to keep the laces from dragging. My skates are tied pretty loose. I think most people over tighten their laces because of their youth. parents always seem to over tighten them. Let the kids start tying them early and they figure out they don't have to be cinched down.

Head straight up, shoulders over knees, knees over toes, almost like you are stopped hallway before sitting down. I have always preferred a full leg extension stride bringing the feet back closer together. I feel that the shorter, choppy stride doesn't maximize your leg's power and expends more energy. But that's just my opinion on the way I learned and have always taught.

Shoulders over toes puts your center of gravity way too far forward. That's why so many guys need to go with longer runners on their skates too.

[Solo_man11 9]

My feet are pretty close togther. I guess it comes from the Laura Stamm taught style of bringing your feet all the way together. Maybe that style worked when skates were not as stiff, but your comment makes sense to me. I also remember asking one of my teams really good skaters ( former Jr level) to give me a pointer or two. He said my knees were bent ok, but not centered under my body. He said something about my butt sticking out and up. I thanked him but I don't think it fully computed in the moment because I do bring me feet very close vs wide tracking. Now I wonder if he meant under from front to back, instead of just not leaving them out to the side so much. If I use a wall and get into my skating stance and back up until my butt touches the wall, my feet are nowhere near the wall, even though my knees are bent and I am fairly low to the ground. I think I need to keep my current skates tighter laced and see if I can learn to use the edges better. I neither tighten them really tight, and don't use a really stiff skate. Loosely tied skates may have really prevented me from learning correct technique. I am also really beat after a shift from inefficient mechanics I am sure. Thanks all for the feedback.

Hey, just to set things straight, there is nothing wrong with Laura Stamm power skating and I actually learned that style of power skating when I was young. Over the years I tinkered with my acceleration stride. Getting the inside edge is getting in that athletic stance and not overly going too wide with your knees bent. So I don't want you to misunderstand.

I can skate with my laces loose, I can skip an eyelet and I choose to crank my laces because I don't like any negative space. I feel smoother when I lean when I know my skates are stiff, that is why I wish I had stiffer skates. Also I get lots of forward lean when I crank the top because of the style of boot I wear.

I would tie your skates the way you feel comfortable but not too loose where you ankle burn but that your foot is snug.

[Solo_man11 9]

If your skates fit good the tightness of your skate shouldn't affect your technique to much. My son had a former NHL player as a coach and he hardly tied his skates at all. I think he did it just to keep the laces from dragging. My skates are tied pretty loose. I think most people over tighten their laces because of their youth. parents always seem to over tighten them. Let the kids start tying them early and they figure out they don't have to be cinched down.

Head straight up, shoulders over knees, knees over toes, almost like you are stopped hallway before sitting down. I have always preferred a full leg extension stride bringing the feet back closer together. I feel that the shorter, choppy stride doesn't maximize your leg's power and expends more energy. But that's just my opinion on the way I learned and have always taught.

Where do you teach hockey if you don't mind me asking? I am guilty parent making sure my kids tie their skates snug until their ankles develop. I didn't know that you should tie kids skates loose. I let my kids tie their own skates but make sure they tie them snug. One time my older son didn't tie his skates tight enough on the ankle and got a huge blister. He also as ankle burning a little too.

I guess if a former nhl coach is teaching kids to tie their skates loose then maybe I was wrong all these years. I can skate with my laces loose because I have skated all my life but my kids are developing. If you tie your skates loose because that is a preference then I understand but it kind of sounds like your saying cranking the laces is wrong.

Please enlighten me and I am not being sarcastic because I still have an open mind.

[chk hrd 164]

Chadd:

Shoulders over knees, knees over toes doesn't put your center of gravity to far forward. It keeps your body in a straight from shoulders to your toes because of the knee bend. If you just bent over to keep your shoulders over your toes without bending your knees then yes you would be leaning forward. Robbie Glantz and a lot of skating schools teach this form.

Solo_Man:

I coached youth hockey in Las Vegas and did a lot of the summer off season skating. I didn't say tie their skates loose. I said many parents over tighten their kids skates. You always see them cranking down hard in the locker room. I think a lot that is from skates not fitting properly. Many parents buy skates a little big so junior can grow into them. Skates that don't fit right leave a lot of vacant space for the foot to move in. So to compensate it's extra socks and/or crank the laces. My point with kids tying their own skates is they never get them as tight as their parents can but they seem to do just fine if you drop them off at the rink for a skate or stick & puck.

I also didn't say that my son's coach taught the kids to tie laces loose; I said HE hardly tightened HIS skates. It is my preference to tie my skates loose but I also like a tight fitting boot. If I tighten my laces just a little to much I get cramps in my arches. And again, I never said cranking the laces is wrong (back to that preference thing). My point was I think a lot of people overtighten their skates because that is how they have skated since youth and if kids are old enough to tie their skates (around 1st year Pee Wee) they will figure out the best way and feeling for them.

Hope this enlightend you some. I never said my way was the right way (if there is a right way). Just the way I've done things, my preferences and my experiences.

[Solo_man11 9]

Chadd:

Shoulders over knees, knees over toes doesn't put your center of gravity to far forward. It keeps your body in a straight from shoulders to your toes because of the knee bend. If you just bent over to keep your shoulders over your toes without bending your knees then yes you would be leaning forward. Robbie Glantz and a lot of skating schools teach this form.

Solo_Man:

I coached youth hockey in Las Vegas and did a lot of the summer off season skating. I didn't say tie their skates loose. I said many parents over tighten their kids skates. You always see them cranking down hard in the locker room. I think a lot that is from skates not fitting properly. Many parents buy skates a little big so junior can grow into them. Skates that don't fit right leave a lot of vacant space for the foot to move in. So to compensate it's extra socks and/or crank the laces. My point with kids tying their own skates is they never get them as tight as their parents can but they seem to do just fine if you drop them off at the rink for a skate or stick & puck.

I also didn't say that my son's coach taught the kids to tie laces loose; I said HE hardly tightened HIS skates. It is my preference to tie my skates loose but I also like a tight fitting boot. If I tighten my laces just a little to much I get cramps in my arches. And again, I never said cranking the laces is wrong (back to that preference thing). My point was I think a lot of people overtighten their skates because that is how they have skated since youth and if kids are old enough to tie their skates (around 1st year Pee Wee) they will figure out the best way and feeling for them.

Hope this enlightend you some. I never said my way was the right way (if there is a right way). Just the way I've done things, my preferences and my experiences.

My bad! I read loose laces. Btw, I noticed some coaches tie there skates loose because they don't skate as hard as the players, they just stand there barking out orders lol.

Also, it can go the other way around, some people may tie there skates loose because they don't fit properly which I have also witnessed. Sometimes the skate is too stiff for the child so they compensate by tying loosely or skipping an eyelet so that the kid can skate properly. This one child was bulging out of the skate so bad his parent purposely tied his skates loose so the poor kid wouldn't get lace bite.

Again like you say, there is no right way! Hope you get that team in Las Vegas!

[Chadd 916]

I'm a big believer in knee bend, just not the waist bend that follows with the shoulders over toes philosophy. I don't want to take this any father off topic and will leave it at that.

As for lacing, skates should be snug, but there is no need for them to be so tight that you cut yourself on the laces.

[Hockeydog 8]

I don't want to take this any father off topic and will leave it at that.

Anything helps, so no worries from me about taking it off topic. It all goes to the bottom line of skating better. I think I pretty much match up with the shoulders over knees over toes, but admit in the heat of the moment I may bend/drop at the back a little, especially when fatigue sets in.

I did find this video that supports Chadd's viewpoint.

[Labrat198 7]

That's why so many guys need to go with longer runners on their skates too.

I was wondering how a longer runner helps if the radius is the same? I switched to a longer runner with a foot larger radius about 3 months ago and had problems falling backwards as well as toe picked a couple times. Took awhile to get use to them.

Also wondering if you had any tips on how to know if its a persons technique that needs to change or if making adjustments to my skates is the way to go? I know tuning can make a huge difference for someone trying to squeeze every bit of performance out of a skate, but I would hate to start dropping more money into making adjustments if its my technique and not the skate that needs work.

[YesLanges 127]

A longer runner contributes to speed because there's more blade on the ice; just like racing skis and speed skates are longer than other skis and skates, respectively. The radius is just the shape of the curve; so a longer runner of the same radius as another runner is equivalent to a longer "section" of a circle of the same size. You caught heels and toes with a longer blade the same way it's harder to keep from crossing your ski tips with longer skis. Changing to a larger radius at the same time would magnify that difference but I think longer blades have more to do with that than the radius change. If they feel right otherwise, you might consider just having the toes and heels cut down so they don't get in the way.

As for distinguishing between your skating mechanics and your blades, other observers (especially more advanced skaters) should be able to help you identify technique issues. If you don't feel that something specific is wrong with your blade contact (like feeling that your weight is always too far back or forward), chances are it's probably more a technique issue. I think when it's just your blades, you're conscious of a difference between where your weight and balance points are and where you'd like them to be. When it's your blades, it feels like your skates are always resisting your natural balance point; at least that's been my experience.

[Hockeydog 8]

just like racing skis and speed skates are longer than other skis and skates, respectively.

Slolom skis are shorter than downhill skis. I think hockey skates equate more to slolom skis with all the maneuverability hockey skaters need. Speed skaters are like downhill skiers, just looking for top speed and hanging on thru any turns.

[Labrat198 7]

I have adjusted for the most part so the heel and toe don't catch anymore. I do feel like my weight is a little further back than I would like, but even that is becoming less of an issue the longer I use them. I worry that in order to transfer my weight to the balls of my feel I end up leaning at the waist more than I should. Not sure what adjustments would fix that or if I should just keep skating on them as is until my form adapts.

[Chadd 916]

A longer runner contributes to speed because there's more blade on the ice; just like racing skis and speed skates are longer than other skis and skates, respectively. The radius is just the shape of the curve; so a longer runner of the same radius as another runner is equivalent to a longer "section" of a circle of the same size.

A 9' radius puts the same length of steel on the ice with a size 5 or a size 11. For that reason, an oversized runner is not like a longer ski at all. The only use for the longer runner is that it allows you to remain upright when your center of gravity gets farther forward. The extra few mm of steel makes a huge difference when you get your shoulders too far in front of your hips.

Anything helps, so no worries from me about taking it off topic. It all goes to the bottom line of skating better. I think I pretty much match up with the shoulders over knees over toes, but admit in the heat of the moment I may bend/drop at the back a little, especially when fatigue sets in.

I did find this video that supports Chadd's viewpoint.

There's a big difference between ideal body position for power skating and ideal body position for playing hockey. A lot of people lose sight of that when they focus on skating fundamentals and then have to do all kinds of things to compensate for it.

[YesLanges 127]

You're saying that if you had someone wearing a Size 12 boot and someone else wearing a Size 5 boot both step onto and off of fresh ice side by side, the marks left in the ice by them would be identical in length because both sets of blades are 9' radius? In general, I defer to your expert opinion, but that just doesn't sound right to me.

[Labrat198 7]

You're saying that if you had someone wearing a Size 12 boot and someone else wearing a Size 5 boot both step onto and off of fresh ice side by side, the marks left in the ice by them would be identical in length because both sets of blades are 9' radius? In general, I defer to your expert opinion, but that just doesn't sound right to me.

A 9' circle is a 9" circle, which is why I was wondering how a longer runner would help. The amount of steel contacting the ice would remain the same, but the amount of steel available to be skated on would be longer if I am understanding everything correctly.

[YesLanges 127]

I still don't think that's necessarily true. It might be true if the blades were on something much harder and flatter like unbreakable glass or polished stone. In fact, I've stood in skates on ceramic tile and I could really feel exactly where the flat ended by letting my weight rock back and forth a bit. But ice just isn't that hard and the entire body weight is pushing the blade down into the ice. Even neglecting that someone in Size 12s probably weighs twice as much as someone in Size 5s, if you just stuck two equally heavy weighted mannequin into the skates and stood them on the ice, I don't think the length of their respective impression on the ice would be the same at all, notwithstanding that both blades are 9' radius. Likewise, I don't think it's accurate to imagine that when you're skating on the flat you're only on the flat and that no other part of your blade is in contact with the ice at all. I think it's more accurate to think of most of your weight being on the flat (or other part of the blade) but other sections of blade still being in some contact with the ice at the same time, just with less of your weight over them. There probably are exceptions when only the rear or front of your blades are in contact (such as when you turn sharply), but not the flat, except maybe for an instant while you're pivoting.

[Hockeydog 8]

There's a big difference between ideal body position for power skating and ideal body position for playing hockey. A lot of people lose sight of that when they focus on skating fundamentals and then have to do all kinds of things to compensate for it.

Once I have to handle that little rubber thing on the ice or reach out to poke check someone whatever form I have goes to heck.

I watch a NHL game on TV and all the players are leaned over in very untechnically sound positions waiting for the puck to drop.

[Chadd 916]

I still don't think that's necessarily true.

So make your point with facts and not beliefs.

Once I have to handle that little rubber thing on the ice or reach out to poke check someone whatever form I have goes to heck.

I watch a NHL game on TV and all the players are leaned over in very untechnically sound positions waiting for the puck to drop.

So, before they start skating, when there is no consideration of playing the puck, they are in a position to optimize power starts? Shocking

A 9' circle is a 9" circle, which is why I was wondering how a longer runner would help. The amount of steel contacting the ice would remain the same, but the amount of steel available to be skated on would be longer if I am understanding everything correctly.

That is correct.