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Skate Mod

ROVER HOCKEY SKATES PROJECT

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26 minutes ago, DarkStar50 said:

Did it ever occur to anyone that while MSH is made up of some of the greatest guys and gals that play hockey, we are also not exactly all the greatest hockey players. We may think we but I've seen my video and it's not bringing out the scouts. So if I had this really awesome revolutionary idea for any piece of hockey gear would this actually be the best place to float this idea to future investors. Perhaps I should take my idea to the ultimate end users that would get the greatest benefit, that would give me the best legitimate feedback and have the bank accounts to assist my production of this revolutionary piece of hockey gear. No offense fellas, but I'm going to the pros !! We're a great bunch but how many of you can pony up the scratch? I've collected for beer league teams before and I know about "I'll get you next week.  

 

Seriously, you came here to pitch your idea. I'm flattered but that's silly. 

To be fair though, on the consumer end you won’t find a group more educated and knowledgeable with regards to hockey equipment anywhere else. 

That said, that educated and knowledge group have given their collective thumbs down, so... now what? 

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1 minute ago, IPv6Freely said:

To be fair though, on the consumer end you won’t find a group more educated and knowledgeable with regards to hockey equipment anywhere else. 

That said, that educated and knowledge group have given their collective thumbs down, so... now what? 

Another 10 page manifesto?

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On 1/2/2018 at 10:09 PM, Kgbeast said:

Yes they do. There is a thread about them just outside here.

Also, I have not been to the store. There is West side skate and stick. Had a bunch of new old stock Graf  skates.  Guy is solid.  I plan to go down on the train.  When I can spend the money  

Edited by Playmakersedge
Forgot a word

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48 minutes ago, DarkStar50 said:

Did it ever occur to anyone that while MSH is made up of some of the greatest guys and gals that play hockey, we are also not exactly all the greatest hockey players. We may think we but I've seen my video and it's not bringing out the scouts. So if I had this really awesome revolutionary idea for any piece of hockey gear would this actually be the best place to float this idea to future investors. Perhaps I should take my idea to the ultimate end users that would get the greatest benefit, that would give me the best legitimate feedback and have the bank accounts to assist my production of this revolutionary piece of hockey gear. No offense fellas, but I'm going to the pros !! We're a great bunch but how many of you can pony up the scratch? I've collected for beer league teams before and I know about "I'll get you next week.  

 

Seriously, you came here to pitch your idea. I'm flattered but that's silly. 

Poor to mediocre players are certainly the largest market segment. As as more obsessed with equipment than most, MSH is sort of the ideal market. And DarkStar, I'm sure you are just that one new stick or new pair of gloves away from the NHL :)

Edited by Davideo
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11 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

... does not really matter if this is an information gathering expedition or not. Not like he is stealing your ideas. I see this more of a looking for approval of his ideas by us hence he defends them so rigorously. He did not get that here, so he is probably trying to get that on some other forum now. It is like that engineer who blames the multimeter for giving him wrong reading instead of accepting that the reading is correct but just not what he has expected it to be. It is sad, and it is why we have so many useless products out there that no body, but a few thought was a great idea.

Correct,  he got no ideas deliberately. My self I gave my opinion; but certainly I wasn't going to design a  skate for him . If he was receptive at all I may have put some concepts out .  ...  The thing with engineers in many cases they only know what they have been taught.  Most were the kids in school that could do the math. They were not the inventor, the what if . What if is like fingers on the chalk board to most.  In life how many of the things we were taught as fact eventually became not so .    Some where along the line designer , investors, idea people became the same  . This is where the failure lies .   The idea person conceptualises ,the engineering team figures ou the what's the cheapest we can build it and last.  One is like a chef ,can taste the flavors in mind and tastes as they go ,they may make notes . This is the recipe. Chefs don't need them..      The engineer is the recipe writer of machines or product.   Many engineers have no Idea how the entirety of the pieces work.  

a good friend of mine an aeronautical engineer  ,called me up and asked me how do I know wich wheel bearing in my car is bad , I said listen to what gets louder when you turn and load the bearing.   Did not understand me . Had to explain and explain  .  

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On 1/1/2018 at 12:09 AM, IPv6Freely said:

Best endorsement for somebody trying to bring a high-end hockey skate to the market ever. 

That's asking his potential customer for funding. ..a person doing this you would think would be hat in hand humble..... 

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This will be last post here, so no need to reply.

I did not come here for validation, people that seek validation lack confidence, I’m not short on confidence - not to be confused with arrogance, which some of you are probably confusing me for being arrogant.

This forum is just another door I knock on as I look for an investor. I’m also positive that people that have that type of money usually do not participate on online forums; they have better things to do. So it was mostly maybe someone knows someone who knows someone, or at least maybe there is a small group of dealers that will go in on the project since they are smart enough to realize that we are heading for a big iceberg and that collision is unavoidable, so the more exposure I get the better are the chances.

I’m fully away that consumers will not sponsor my project either, I have experience in bringing products to market, so I know the physiology of consumers especially in our industry where it’s not on the consumers, it’s the on the manufacturers and on the dealers that will decide what to carry or not to carry. Consumers in our industry no longer have enough choice where they can decide who stays and who goes. So I take everything that consumers say here with a grain of salt on any subject matter engineering, business strategy, and my designs…

For me a good product will overcome many issues with pricing, marketing strategy, longevity, dealer protection or not, over flooding the market… as long as it grows the industry it can withstand a lot of pitfalls.

Some one mentioned here that you never know who we have on this forum as far as current or former skate engineers. I will go toe-to-toe with any one even against collection of them on any subject mater related to hockey and skate development.

They are as guilty as their executives in creating the mess we are in today. Trying out things in R&D is about knowing what is even worth improving and what is not improving. If CCM decides to bring out an FT1 model without an outsole where you have more torsional flex and lateral flex, and a low cut boot that increases your chances of over pronation and ankle sprain. It has nothing to do with your engineer in China, you have to be smart enough to realize that before you even get to any discussions with them on IP, R&D and mass production.

 

So you can bring as many of them at once and we will discuss subject like:

 

Material property, and the effects of gradual flexural modulus on muscle fatigue vs. non-gradual flexural modulus. And how does geometry come into this equation.

 

We can discuss how introduction of a one –piece boot construction and elimination of a proper heel pocket contributes to conditions like Plantar Fasciitis, and in some cases arthritis.

 

We can discuss how adding grip on the heel portion of the insole contributes to increased risk of heel spur.

 

We can discuss foot correction techniques in a full weight bearing, semi-weigh bearing, and non weight bearing mode, and how “Speed Plate” technology contributes to increased risk of supination and in some cases increased risk of Norton’s Neuroma.

 

We can discuss the effect of a high heel to toe offset boot design on a excessive built up of lactic acid in your legs.

 

We can discuss how shaving weight from a midsole and making it stiffer or elimination of an outsole contributes more to Herniated Disk problems.

 

We can discuss how shaving as much weight as possible from a holder via geometry and making it too stiff contributes to excessive cartilage wear in the knees and hips.

 

We can discus the effects of developing an overly stiff holder based on 220LB+ NHL players and using it in your Junior skates for 8-10 years old that barely weigh 100 lb, and the success rate of them sticking with the sport after one year of playing.

 

I can go on and on for pages on the “Advancements” our engineers made over the years and how we got to this this mess.

 

In the end I will ask them one simple question: “Why do all hockey payers walk the same?” If you look at the way we walk, most of us that played enough years and played often have legs that curve a bit outward from the knee down. A lot of us supinate a bit; some of us also have foot inversion…”Why is that?”

 

If they knew the answer to this question, the skates, the ideology, R&D and the business plan built around it would be completely different. And the outcome would also be different as far as collapse of the industry or growth of the industry.

 

I will go back to my previous statement, If you know too much about too many disciplines but at an entry level, you will fail. If you know too much about one or two disciplines you will fail as well.

 

Bauer and CCM are very good at two things: shaving weight via streamline design and aesthetics, they sure know how to make things pretty. And that’s where it ends. The results always prove that, no matter what is the level of expertise, we are all about results.

 

In our sport it’s about function first, everything else comes secondary, VH proved it with an ugly looking skate that weighs a lot more then Bauer or CCM.

 

At this point it doesn’t matter if you like me or not, if you can poke holes in my designs without actually sitting down and comparing pros and cons of my features with what you have from existing brands, and I haven’t even disclosed the most important parts of my designs.

 

All it matters is I’m the last person that has enough qualifications to give us another bloodline. No one is coming after me; we’ll be past the threshold where it won’t be profitable any more. And I can tell you based on my knowledge of the industry from every angle, existing brands will not shift or change their approach, they are too deep and have developed too much of a tunnel vision, they will go down with the ship.

 

So I’ll keep knocking on more doors.

 

Now we can lock this thread, and you can all go back to your regularly scheduled program with discussions on lace-bite and bunga pads and price points of previous skate model vs. new skate model and the "Improvements they made".

 

Cheers.

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Normally I want/try to be constructive in discussion forums but...  BA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!  The shear lunacy of so many statements almost made me pee myself...

I hope he gets his funding and I hope he is onto the next big thing for our sport but dang...  

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6 hours ago, Skate Mod said:

All it matters is I’m the last person that has enough qualifications to give us another bloodline. No one is coming after me; we’ll be past the threshold where it won’t be profitable any more

HAHAHA! The royal bloodline will end with him. Quickly! We must find an heir! Please man, at the very least freeze some of your "genetic material" so we can create an heir in the future!

Apparently hockey will cease to exist in the near future.

I will say though, sometimes the biggest nut jobs are very successful.

Edited by Davideo
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It seems the one thing our saviour is forgetting to take into account is that the players are using "poorly engineered" skates not because "proper" skates are not available, but because many are simply not aware enough on the subject of the deformities and their causes, and many accepting it as part of the sport.

In other words, the problem is not in making the skates that fix all these complications, the problem is in bringing the awareness that the complications exist and are serious enough to pay attention to. It has to be done with major mfgs on board, with NHL support, with American hockey support in developing the training programs and requirements to address these problems and protect next generation of players from developing these complications. A job for an activist and a whistle blower... hardly a get rich fast scheme.

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25 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

Tell me more about this iceberg...

Seriously, Boris McFly this industry hit the iceberg a while ago!  

But then you wrote that just to see who was paying attention. 

We all know you are not done here. It's not in your DNA. 

Edited by DarkStar50
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On 1/2/2018 at 4:02 PM, Skate Mod said:

My replies are long, because I’m replying to everyone with one reply.

 

 

 

The first most important question I would ask here is how confident anyone here that the current engineers at Bauer and CCM, VH are at the top of their game. As I constantly bring up examples of 20 and 30 year old designs and materials being recycled into new designs, and I only mentioned few examples.

 

 

 

I haven’t even gone over their full portfolio including the ODIN one project that was a copy of something else that was publicly visible before they came up with it, and this was a project where they were given no restrictions on budget or mass production yet there was no innovation on the boot at all.

 

 

 

No one can answer that question, because there is nothing to compare them too. Bauer bought out everybody they could have, to me that’s not an accurate measuring stick when we are looking at their 75% market share.

 

 

 

There are many industries where big giant innovative companies are at the top until something new comes a long with disruptive technology. Disruptive does not always mean advanced, it only means it solves problems that exist better.

 

 

 

Hockey is very unique; we cannot compare it to any other industry when it comes to product development because of the feel factor and fit factor, we are not electronics, there are only so many materials that work, and there are so many designs that work. I constantly bring it up in my replies.

 

 

 

That is why we haven’t seen any progress in the past 5-7 years, and we won’t see anything new. And that is why it’s a lot easier to bring product to the market today then 20 years a go, They have narrowed the gap on materials, production methods and designs that can work and feel good.

 

 

 

The only avenue left to explore is very complex geometry applied to the same materials that feel good. This direction would require Bauer, CCM and VH in firing their current engineers and hiring different people with different skill set. And on top of that it would be a different business model with far smaller profit margins after they realize the complexity and cost of manufacturing all these geometric shapes.

 

 

 

DarkStar, I’m not fighting with anyone or have personal agenda, I’m fighting for you, for us as an industry which will shrink in 10 years into the size of a Golf industry.

 

 

 

 

For me success in our business is a person that has enough knowledge in many disciplines that are needed for our industry, if that knowledge is too broad he will fail. If that knowledge is too narrow and he only knows only one aspect of the industry, and knows it too well, he will also fail.

 

That’s why guys like Henry Ford and Steve Jobs and Phil Knight build companies that dominate; the person at the top has that balance of knowing just enough disciplines to plan a head and hire the right people with specific skill set.

 

 

 

When you have a board of directors there is no one person that has that balance and everybody has different level of ambition they want to achieve on short term and long term.

 

 

 

So I don’t need to be a graphic designer to develop a successful product, I don’t need to be a full time engineer to solve a technical problem. I only need to know enough about each discipline where I hire the right person to finalize my vision, my design and my concept. And I have these people on my list that I interact with.

 

 

 

My backround is 15 -20 years of playing hockey and not beginner level, I’m not a pro, but my skating ability is at an advanced level so I have a good sense of the “Feel” factor and how materials effect that Feel - you can’t learn this in school.

 

 

 

My backround is reverse engineering skates for 15 years and studying these materials and production methods around them, my back round is studying the orthotic industry for 5 years and interacting with prominent orthopedic surgeons on the effects of orthotic design, shoe design and anything else related to plantar surface. Not to mention my own experiments.

 

 

 

My back round is interacting with computational engineers and parametric engineers that solve complex geometric problems with algorithms in a matter of hours instead of drawing things at a snails pace in CAD for days or weeks.

 

 

 

So when I make a statement about VH Carbon fiber-based skate having a significant long-term effect on the body and possible long-term complication, it’s not something I pulled out of the hat.

 

 

 

The talk about energy transfer is as old as electricity. Action equals reaction, the more energy transfer we have the more we also absorb back from that energy, that is why we are far more injury prone today then ever, because the focus is too narrow minded on weight reduction, too much stiffness and simplified production methods. Stiffness must have balance of being able to absorb it back without paying the price for it. Hockey is not a sprint it’s a marathon, if you skate 5 days per week, longevity wins not short term performance.

 

 

 

What I do know is we are at a threshold right now where there are still enough dealers out there that can afford to carry another skate model at a $600 price range. Once we pass that threshold where dealers will disappear or diversify into other categories, we already have that happening, no one will even attempt to bring a skate to the market because they will go bankrupt.

 

 

 

The only reason I can do its because I know what works, what doesn’t work, what idea and design I can follow with my budget , what idea and design I cannot afford to follow from both cost and time management and on top of that I have factory that sees the future well knows that the industry will collapse in 10 years and they will go down with it, so they are willing to cover a lot of my costs, if not, I would not even attempt this venture.

 

 

And that is why my rendering are very broad, I cannot afford to show any small improvement publicly that will demise my long term success.

 

 

The skates we have today work only for 20% of the public, 80% drop out. The fact that we have the same type of player at NHL level proves that theory very well, where we don’t have enough players that skate with fluidity where one motion curves into another motion, we don’t have any agility left. We have the same player that has a short burst of speed in a straight line, then slows down or stops, changes direction and has another burst of speed in a straight line.

 

 

 

This is a reflection of skate design and what it allows us to do on the ice from bio-mechanical point of view. And I always go back to Figure skate industry which i always pay attention to as far as what works and what gimmicks they throw away. They are not compromising on anything if it hinders performance and that is why any figure skater can out skate any hockey player with almost half the effort, so all this talk about energy transfer is just talk.

 

 

 

 

 

And that’s why NHL teams hire figure skating coaches, yet they do not realize that the coach won't solve their problem, only a skate manufacture can do it with the right approach.

 

 

 

Cheers.

 

Man , you just are not getting this. The purest, most elegant mathematic equation dictates this design offers no advantage. It actually is parasitic to the skaters energy . 

There are variables that aren't considered.   I.e players weight, the length of there legs, size of the foot .      This is why having a material that stays at it's same rigidity as the composite do won't work.  It doesn't conform to the player.  The player has to conform to it .  This is where the issues with biomechanics comes in . It's causing unnatural loading of joints  .  Your skate doesn't correct this. You lost objectivity. You are having a love affair with your concept.

Your mathematic vocabulary above is contradicting  . 

Your on the mark of what is happening to players bodies with the use of many of the top brands ... It is going to have long term adverse effects.    What I am trying to convey to you is : Your design is an effort to improve that via getting the forward knee over toe from getting the movement in the toe/ball area of your boot and the blade holder.     So ultimately it is an effort to compensate for the lack of movement where it should be  (the ankle area) forward and side to side .  The few skates that have the movement where it's needed don't need and change  .   The reason these brands are hurting is because a huge part of the hockey community don't have the ankle strength to control the movement.             @ the time when these crazy stiff skate were brought to market it was for other reasons  . Weight, drying etc are all bull shit . Real reason is because they built training wheels into the product . To grow the sport. On Youth and new player adults and it worked. Problem is no one adjusted the training wheels so gradually they aren't needed and strength is built where it's needed  to use proper form and compensate as needed with ankle flexion.

Why not fix the problem at the point of origin  (ankle)  there where nothing wrong with the skates that weren't cast like .   

You have the right motivation;  but your point of execution is wrong.   

Edited by Playmakersedge
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On 1/2/2018 at 10:34 PM, Davideo said:

Poor to mediocre players are certainly the largest market segment. As as more obsessed with equipment than most, MSH is sort of the ideal market. And DarkStar, I'm sure you are just that one new stick or new pair of gloves away from the NHL :)

Imo ,the starting hockey later in life and women's hockey seam to be the areas of opportunity .   

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