Ankle Wrap

[2nhockey 21]

I started skating a couple years ago and am using CCM 46k's. Last year I dabbled in some stick and puck sessions and a couple of very informal pick up games. About 3 weeks ago I joined a beer league team and it is the first time I've really worked the skates hard. I'm just learning how to do that hockey. And I'm not a good skater, though I do ok at the level I am playing. 

So my question is on the ankles of my skates. The CCM's do not wrap my ankles at all. Even when I lace the top 2-3 eyelets so hard that i give myself lace bite I still can squeeze the ankles of the skates in. Are skates supposed to offer minimal ankle support? Should a weaker skater be in more supportive skates?

[Labrat198 7]

My first though is that you may not have the correct size skate. You don't want any negative space in the boot which can be uncomfortable until you break them in even if you have them baked. When I bought my first pair of skates I walked into a big box store, grabbed a pair that where the same size as my shoe and thought that feels close enough. If you are like me, you have the wrong size skate to play hockey. Once I finally went to a dedicated hockey store and got a pair that fit, my foot felt rock solid in the boot. I still had a long road ahead of me to build up the strength in my ankles so I didn't feel like I was flopping all over the place. If you get another pair of skates, you can tell whomever is working with you that you would like a more supportive skate and they should be able to point you in the right direction. 

[2nhockey 21]

Thanks for that.

I'm very confident I have the right size skate. Was fitted at a hockey shop. And tried on maybe 7-8 different skates (wear a size 12 shoes, and my CCM's are 10). The skate is actually comfy and after seeing an endless supply of horror stories about pain from skates I'm reluctant to switch skates. But, I hate the pump and feel like I should be getting an ankle wrap out of the skate. I used to dislike the lace locks but have grown to like them. Regardless, I'm sure it isn't a size issue - length or width.

[puckpilot 312]

I find that with new skates, it takes a lot more effort to close the area around the ankle. I found as they break in, it becomes easier, but then again, I have less of a reliance on lateral support from the skate, so what's good support for me may not be enough for someone else. I sometimes train without tying the top three eyelets. 

One thing I used to do was use two sets of laces for each skate. What I mean by this is I would have my bottom eyelets threaded with one lace, and then I would thread the top two or three eyelets with a second lace. This separated the skate lacing into two zones. I could keep the bottom of the skate snug but comfortable, and if I needed to, I could really yank on the top lacing to close the boot for more lateral support without crushing my forefoot or instep. 

[SolarWind 23]

resurrecting an old thread, never really thought of it until now:

how much ankle wrap is expected with modern skates at the very top of the skate?

ie is ankle supposed to sit flush (or at least as close as possible) to the comfort pad?

the reason I ask is because it seems that ankle pads/donuts are getting quite thick, which is great for the heel lock and all, but these pads don't extend all the way up to the top of the skate. Instead they taper off quite sharply just over the ankle bones, so no matter how hard I crank up the top eyelet I can still easily stick a finger between my ankle & the comfort pad. This results in quite a bit of ankle flexion and it changes the angle of the boot quite a bit.

doesn't look like there is any way around it as long as quarters are straight up over ankle bones. They would need to curve inwards for me to wrap more tightly... 

[puckpilot 312]

39 minutes ago, SolarWind said:

resurrecting an old thread, never really thought of it until now:

how much ankle wrap is expected with modern skates at the very top of the skate?

ie is ankle supposed to sit flush (or at least as close as possible) to the comfort pad?

the reason I ask is because it seems that ankle pads/donuts are getting quite thick, which is great for the heel lock and all, but these pads don't extend all the way up to the top of the skate. Instead they taper off quite sharply just over the ankle bones, so no matter how hard I crank up the top eyelet I can still easily stick a finger between my ankle & the comfort pad. This results in quite a bit of ankle flexion and it changes the angle of the boot quite a bit.

doesn't look like there is any way around it as long as quarters are straight up over ankle bones. They would need to curve inwards for me to wrap more tightly... 

Check out this pic of McDavid. He doesn't do up his laces to the top and the boot doesn't wrap around the front of his ankle.

 

IMHO, you shouldn't be cranking the laces at the top. You don't want to restrict your ankle's mobility. If you do, it'll just hinder your ability to align your edges properly. For me, I just have the laces snug, so the skate isn't far from the untied position. You'd be surprised at how little ankle support from the skate you need.

[Vet88 674]

2 hours ago, SolarWind said:

This results in quite a bit of ankle flexion and it changes the angle of the boot quite a bit.

This says that you are relying on the boot to hold your ankle straight instead of you controlling the angle of the blade thru correct muscle control and correct bio mechanics. If the angle is changing then it indicates you are pronating, even with a good fitting boot you will still pronate in the boot, the boot just hides it. But if you don't have the time to train to fix it then the best fitting boot you can get is your next best solution. Have you tried using a heat gun to heat the upper rear quarter and then wrap the top in tape? I say tape as it is generally stronger than a sarin wrap and you can crank it really hard around your leg to pull the boot inwards. However a degree of caution here, if you pronate and you pull the top edge of the boot close to your leg it may start to dig in, I've seen this a number of times, even the comfort edge doesn't stop it.

[SolarWind 23]

There is a couple of things getting mixed up:

• forward flexion - definitely 'the more the merrier', no argument there. I used to skate with top eyelet undone on and off for the past 10 years, depending on the skate I was in. And even when I laced all the way up I made sure it doesn't feel like ski boot. There seems to be a clear correlation between forward and lateral flexion, but it's dependent on the boot design, stiffness etc so I'm not going there. Nor questioning the necessity of the forward flex.
• ankle flexion & associated lateral flexion, more specifically what is the reasonable range of motion side to side for the ankle before it starts hindering performance - that's what I'm trying to clarify. Just like the forward flex, some ankle flexion is absolutely essential. But intuitively it feels that unlike with the forward flex, there is likely only some side-to side flexion that's helpful before it becomes a hinderance. So I was curious how much side wrap (def no over-wrap in front of the ankle since it'd mess up the forward flex) is good, and at what point does the empty space between the ankle and top of the boot become detrimental?

Here's 2 skates side by side with the ankle rolled inwards to the max: https://ibb.co/Y3SvVKm

Bauer feels ok, but CCM feels sloppy and not very responsive due to the range of side to side roll it allows.

Once again I'm all up for Some ankle roll, there's been numerous studies on the benefits of it, after all it's much quicker to roll the ankle then lean over. 

Just curious how much is too much if that makes sense.

[Vet88 674]

You are never going to get a definite answer on that. It will range from my position (you can learn to skate just as well with full ankle motion ie laces untied) to you must lace fully up with the boot as tight as you possibly can go and no ankle flexion. At the end of the day it's all about what you are used to. If you have skated with a lot of ankle support then when you get to a boot with less support you feel it and it impacts on your skating. However if you stuck to those boots for a couple of years and got used to it then you would wonder what all the fuss was about. 

And for those that say you can't skate properly or fast without that above ankle support and fully laced up, go have a look at low cut speed skating boots.

[puckpilot 312]

23 hours ago, SolarWind said:

Once again I'm all up for Some ankle roll, there's been numerous studies on the benefits of it, after all it's much quicker to roll the ankle then lean over. 

Just curious how much is too much if that makes sense.

Maybe this video will help. For me I like being be able to roll my ankle onto the outside edge to the point I can make the side of the skate touch the ice if I want as I push off. But that's my personal preference.. 

 

[SolarWind 23]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:17 AM, Vet88 said:

go have a look at low cut speed skating boots.

I don’t recall speed skaters being able to rapidly change direction or take contact LOL

there is no argument that ankle mobility is extremely beneficial for skating, and especially when skating leisurely it’s good to have a lot of ankle mobility. 
where it seems to become a hinderance is for jumps including running crossovers, or contact.
There is a reason figure skates are so tight around the ankle since landing a triple axel on a rolled ankle would be a recipe for an immediate disaster. 
So I suggest we look past the book knowledge and look into practical applicability of this specifically to hockey. 

[Vet88 674]

6 hours ago, SolarWind said:

I don’t recall speed skaters being able to rapidly change direction or take contact LOL

there is no argument that ankle mobility is extremely beneficial for skating, and especially when skating leisurely it’s good to have a lot of ankle mobility. 
where it seems to become a hinderance is for jumps including running crossovers, or contact.
There is a reason figure skates are so tight around the ankle since landing a triple axel on a rolled ankle would be a recipe for an immediate disaster. 
So I suggest we look past the book knowledge and look into practical applicability of this specifically to hockey. 

Where it seems to become a hinderance? What do you base this on other than your own personal experience of lacing up tight in a stiff boot? How about Darryl Evans who played games in the NHL with only the bottom 5 eyelets laced up. Or European ice hockey teams training with laces untied. You seem to forget that since humans started skating on ice - bar the introduction of composites - skates had next to 0 ankle support. Skaters did just fine with very little ankle support doing everything you seem to think they couldn't.

 

 

[SolarWind 23]

4 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Where it seems to become a hinderance? What do you base this on other than your own personal experience of lacing up tight in a stiff boot? How about Darryl Evans who played games in the NHL with only the bottom 5 eyelets laced up. Or European ice hockey teams training with laces untied. You seem to forget that since humans started skating on ice - bar the introduction of composites - skates had next to 0 ankle support. Skaters did just fine with very little ankle support doing everything you seem to think they couldn't.

 

 

This brought some memories, I went searching and found the exact same skates I learned to skate on back in 80s - гаги: https://youla.ru/moskva/sport-otdyh/zimnie-vidy/konki-ghaghi-5a9140c1f094f38e4d3f49b7

There was some serious shortage of pretty much everything in 80s in USSR, so these skates were passed on around. I still remember complete lack of ankle support and insulation in these! Not only ankles were aching but toes were frozen too LOL

Fast forward 40 years: I tested 2 specific moves with different lacing (top eyelet undone, laced all the way up loosely, laced moderately tight). The moves were: jumping side to side (on both feet and one foot) and running crossovers. Most stability and predictability when landing hard on the edge in a jump was with the moderately tight lacing. 
 

maybe I’m just getting old and my history of ankle sprains is catching up to me, but I’m just hoping for some “marvels of modern technology” to make it easier for me 🙂

Edited September 27, 2021 by SolarWind

[flip12 715]

5 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Where it seems to become a hinderance? What do you base this on other than your own personal experience of lacing up tight in a stiff boot? How about Darryl Evans who played games in the NHL with only the bottom 5 eyelets laced up. Or European ice hockey teams training with laces untied. You seem to forget that since humans started skating on ice - bar the introduction of composites - skates had next to 0 ankle support. Skaters did just fine with very little ankle support doing everything you seem to think they couldn't.

 

 

Didn’t Evans tape his tendon guard, tongue and upper eyelets in a bundle like Orr?

[Vet88 674]

Just now, flip12 said:

Didn’t Evans tape his tendon guard, tongue and upper eyelets in a bundle like Orr?

In his early days he did but later on his career he played with just the bottom 5 laced (rules are that you must have laces and must have them tied). He played in AllStar games with no laces, the tongue flop was ridiculous.

[flip12 715]

5 hours ago, Vet88 said:

In his early days he did but later on his career he played with just the bottom 5 laced (rules are that you must have laces and must have them tied). He played in AllStar games with no laces, the tongue flop was ridiculous.

Can you post some pictures of him playing with 5 eyelets laced? That's worth seeing.

All-Star games? At what level?

[Vet88 674]

I've recently changed pc's and lost access to some of the pics I had about this stuff. There is also some news clips / interviews where he talks about lacing 5 up for games, if I remember right when he started dropping eyelets he taped over the ankle and then later on stopped taping. I will try and hunt them down again. Here's a pic of him in an Alumini game without laces.

[SolarWind 23]

Evans is all over the place with his lacing it seems, but he def used to tape ankles massively back in the day!

[SolarWind 23]

On the topic of skipping the top eyelet: I just came across these pictures and found it interesting that a "poster child" of the motion Matt Barzal is now taping his skates, even though it's already the stiffest skate on the market?!

wonder what AS5 Pro skate is going to offer in terms of overall stiffness and the forward flex?

Edited October 6, 2021 by SolarWind

[Jbear 113]

If that's shinguard tape it's stretchy and may not have anything to do with support. I do that to keep the tongue from sliding to the side. Just sayin'.

I find the AS3 PROs to have better forward flexion than my AS1s and a more comfortable cuff.  I'm admittedly a gear junkie,  but these release cycles are ridiculous. Not even pros need updates this frequently. It's wasteful and tough on retailers who have to keep up.  IMHO anyway. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Jbear

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:00 AM, SolarWind said:

On the topic of skipping the top eyelet: I just came across these pictures and found it interesting that a "poster child" of the motion Matt Barzal is now taping his skates, even though it's already the stiffest skate on the market?!

wonder what AS5 Pro skate is going to offer in terms of overall stiffness and the forward flex?

Ever since he changed to Flare steel he has been doing such. I imagine its because he is putting down even more power/torque. If you have ever been  on or near the ice when he is skating you can literally here him tearing the ice up as as he is skating.

[flip12 715]

I don't understand Barzal's shin taping. It looks like it would dig into the ligaments on the back of the knee.

Though he has some tape around the top eyelet and back of the boot, he still skips the top eyelet. But without him explaining the feel he's getting from it, it's hard to tell if it ads a significant degree of support. It certainly isn't inhibiting his ankle flexion:

That tendon guard is leaving him wide open to a Cookey cutter.