Role of Center in the Defensive Zone

[2nhockey 21]

Reading these starting at advanced age threads makes me feel a lot better about learning and starting hockey now (45)! I'm having a ball, but I don't understand the intricacies of positioning yet...

My team has decided I should be a center. Probably not a good decision on their part but whatever - I'm having fun. I think I do well enough on the forecheck, but backchecking...? I thought when we were in the defensive zone my responsibility was to pressure the puck, and if a d-man was already doing that then I thought my job was to protect the slot. Twice in the last game I was in the low slot harassing the other team's forward when our d-man regained posession. In both instances the d-man (nicely) told me I was way out of position. Games being what they are, we didn't have a chance to discuss where I should be in the defensive zone.

So... what is the role of the center when he is in the defensive zone and the puck carrier is being pressured by a defenseman?

Thanks!

[psulion22 402]

You are correct.  In "modern" defensive systems, the center and 2 defensemen play as a unit of 3 (rather than C, LD, RD) with the one of them closest to the puck pressuring it and the other two taking away passing lanes and the "guts" of the ice.  That being said, where was the puck and what was the situation when the defenseman regained possession?

This video is a great explanation of how most beer league teams should be playing defense.  It's what you thought was correct.  There are different variations of this, but the passive box +1 is the simplest and easiest for players of all skill levels to understand and implement effectively.

 

[psulion22 402]

Also, have you thought about attending an adult hockey camp?  I know of 3 that really focus on improving individual adult skills and teaching hockey concepts.  Plus, they are a blast.  We're not talking about Fantasy camps where you practice and get to play with some ex-NHLers.  These are 9-12 hours of on ice (mostly) drills, and 3 or 4 off-ice chalk-talk strategy and video sessions.  I've done 3 of them, and my game has definitely improved as a result, especially in the "thinking" part of it, which has greatly improved my effectiveness on the ice.  I'm likely doing a 4th this summer.

[2nhockey 21]

Thanks for the video - explains a lot. Strictly from the video, I was a little out of position, but, according to the video, where the defenseman wanted me was even more out.

So both times it happened the play was almost identical. Their wing took the puck up the board and was just in front of the goal line. My d-man was with him and they stopped just short of the line. I went into the slot to tie up their forward just on top of the crease. According to the video I should have been on the post and left their attacking forward for the other d. The D-man wanted me to be above the slot while my wings would've been on the blue line. Anyway, their wing tried to pass, my d-man intercepted the pass and we turned up ice, he was looking for a break-out pass. My d-man and I would have been about even with each other when he  looked up for the pass.

He must be running a different scheme in his mind. I'll try to ask him before our next skate.

I would like very much to go to an adult hockey camp but didn't know such a thing existed. Have a couple in mind? My daughter is going to start showcases this year, and it would be more fun for me if I had something to do while she's skating!

[chippa13 1844]

If you're defenseman wants the wings on the blueline for a breakout then you are basically never going to get the puck out. Wings should be no lower than the hashmarks and no higher than the tops of the circles for a breakout unless the opponent's defenseman on their side vacates the blueline early.

[chk hrd 164]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

If you're defenseman wants the wings on the blueline for a breakout then you are basically never going to get the puck out. Wings should be no lower than the hashmarks and no higher than the tops of the circles for a breakout unless the opponent's defenseman on their side vacates the blueline early.

I agree, you see this a lot in beer league. The wings are so high up that it's a 65 foot pass and there is usually a player from the other team in your passing zone. If the D is at the goal line or below the wing needs to be no lower than the hash marks. As the D moves up, so does the wing. The center needs to do their job and move up the slot so the wing has an outlet. If all goes well it goes D to Wing to Center with the week side Wing moving with everyone.

[psulion22 402]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

If you're defenseman wants the wings on the blueline for a breakout then you are basically never going to get the puck out. Wings should be no lower than the hashmarks and no higher than the tops of the circles for a breakout unless the opponent's defenseman on their side vacates the blueline early.

 

1 hour ago, 2nhockey said:

Thanks for the video - explains a lot. Strictly from the video, I was a little out of position, but, according to the video, where the defenseman wanted me was even more out.

So both times it happened the play was almost identical. Their wing took the puck up the board and was just in front of the goal line. My d-man was with him and they stopped just short of the line. I went into the slot to tie up their forward just on top of the crease. According to the video I should have been on the post and left their attacking forward for the other d. The D-man wanted me to be above the slot while my wings would've been on the blue line. Anyway, their wing tried to pass, my d-man intercepted the pass and we turned up ice, he was looking for a break-out pass. My d-man and I would have been about even with each other when he  looked up for the pass.

He must be running a different scheme in his mind. I'll try to ask him before our next skate.

I would like very much to go to an adult hockey camp but didn't know such a thing existed. Have a couple in mind? My daughter is going to start showcases this year, and it would be more fun for me if I had something to do while she's skating!

Chippa is correct.

So what your teammate wants you to play is "old school" hockey.  Wings all the way up at the point, center high in the middle.  That's not how the game is played anymore.  It's all about percentages now.  If you were to go and look at shot/goal charts, you'd see that an overwhelming number of goals, like by a 4:1 ratio, are scored from inside what is often called the "house" or the "guts" - an area created if you drew a line from each post to the closest faceoff dot, extended that line up to the top of the faceoff circle parallel to the boards, and then connected the two lines with a perpendicular one, creating a home plate shaped area in the middle of the zone.  If a shot from the point is deflected in front, it counts as being from in the house.  Seeing as the zone is so big, it would make sense and be more effective to cover the most dangerous area and leave the lower risk areas alone.  To do that, you bring the wings down lower, and layer players - dmen, center, wings - between the puck and the danger areas.  You cover way more of the house this way.  The other thing to consider is that any shot travels in a line to the net.  To block that shot, a player needs to be anywhere along that line.  The proximity to the origin of the shot doesn't matter.  So you can still be doing the same thing as a wing by being in the shooting lane down in the circle as you can by being right up near the blue line.  But by being lower, you're accomplishing two things because you're still in position to block passes into the house (not to mention closer for a breakout pass).  If you're lower, you'll be more effective, cover more space, and be able to do that with less skating.  The goemetry is such that the closer you are to the end point, the shorter the distance you have to move to remain in the shooting lane when the origin point moves.  

I bet he wants you to line up with the far side wing along the boards for a defensive zone faceoff also.  That's also ineffective because that wing's responsibility is to the board side point man.  So on a faceoff loss to that player, the wing has to skate straight up the boards (typically with an opposing wing setting a pick) to the defenseman then shift laterally into the shooting lane.  If the dman walks to the middle, you'll never catch up.  Instead, the far side wing should line up on the inside hash mark, with the far side dman up near the other wing (who is his responsibility anyway).  This way, your wing will be traveling nearly along the shooting lane towards the point.  Much more effective.  Plus, by overloading that area, on a play where it's not a clean loss, that wing can get into the area behind the other team's center and pick up the puck for a pretty easy breakout, or even odd man rush, since there aren't any opponents in that area.  On the drop of the puck, the far side wing on the inside hash just attacks the puck wherever it goes on a loss.  Watch the NHL guys, they all line up in a mostly straight line across the circle now.  Just like the coverage above, you want to work smarter, not harder.

Yep, there are 3 I know of that are very good.  All run by highly distinguished coaches.  Two are run by former coaches from the third.  

https://weekendwarriorshockey.com/ Is the one I've done 3 times.  It's a little more basic and fundamentals heavy, both on and off ice.

https://hammerhockeydevelopment.com/ is what I'm going to do this summer.  The head coach used to be at WWHA and he's a little more advanced and position specific, particularly for defensemen (which I am).

http://nolimithockey.com/ is another run by the guy who used to be the goalie coach at WWHA.  For all of these, there is some overlap of coaches depending on scheduing.

[psulion22 402]

11 minutes ago, chk hrd said:

I agree, you see this a lot in beer league. The wings are so high up that it's a 65 foot pass and there is usually a player from the other team in your passing zone. If the D is at the goal line or below the wing needs to be no lower than the hash marks. As the D moves up, so does the wing. The center needs to do their job and move up the slot so the wing has an outlet. If all goes well it goes D to Wing to Center with the week side Wing moving with everyone.

Absolutely.  As a defenseman, i read the lowest player in the zone on the breakout when deciding on whether to leave the zone or try to keep the puck in.  If the wing is all the way up by me on the blueline, and the center is down deep, I know I have a very little chance of getting beat, so I will stay in the zone and try to break up the pass to the wing and hold the line.  If the wing gets low and the center is lateral, I won't have ability to compete for the first pass, so I have to back out and can't hold the line.

[2nhockey 21]

Thanks for the info and feedback - it makes a lot of sense the way you guys put it. 

I was really looking forward to my league game on Sunday to try some of this stuff out and discuss direction with the d-man. Unfortunately the game was postponed until March, presumably for the super bowl. However, I found a pickup style of game last night with a different group of guys - most my age or older and without a doubt these guys are good - much better than me or my league team. I learned I really suck at hockey. But, what a riot! Looking forward to doing that again!

[psulion22 402]

18 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

Thanks for the info and feedback - it makes a lot of sense the way you guys put it. 

I was really looking forward to my league game on Sunday to try some of this stuff out and discuss direction with the d-man. Unfortunately the game was postponed until March, presumably for the super bowl. However, I found a pickup style of game last night with a different group of guys - most my age or older and without a doubt these guys are good - much better than me or my league team. I learned I really suck at hockey. But, what a riot! Looking forward to doing that again!

I would not expect that discussion to go well.  Those who want to play the way he does have been taught that is the correct way a long time ago, and are resistant to change.  They could have Joel Quenville telling them it's wrong and they won't listen.

[2nhockey 21]

Maybe, but I meant more as for he and I to be on the same page more than me trying to change his mind on how to play the game. So no, not going to be confrontational at all - especially since I am the newest member of the team. Probably no better or faster way to alienate myself than to be the new guy and then go in the locker room and question everything.

[psulion22 402]

So then ignore everything we’ve just told you and play the wrong way. Note, it will lead to a lot of goals against as you’ll be in a bad position to cover the middle. There will also be a lot of problems leaving your zone and turnovers at the blue line.  That will then likely lead to a lot of guys saying you have to “get down low” or “pick up the guy in front” or “stay back”, counteracting what he told you he wanted in the first place. 

Thats the point I’m trying to make. There’s no being on the same page. Either you do what he wants or you stay low in front and let him figure it out. No need for discussion either way. Just do one or the other.

But, from the coaches at those hockey camps teaching it the new way - don’t compound the problem by having more guys out of position. Do your job and what you know is the best way, and let him do what he wants. At least you’ll be there to cover for him when things go wrong. If they question you, you can explain things and show videos. 

I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’ve played a lot of hockey with guys like him and trying to discuss things with them doesn’t get you anywhere. You just have to do what you think will make you the most effective and deal with the consequences. Either way, you’re going to get grief about your positioning. I will say that playing the modern way will likely have you in better position to make plays, and you’ll get the reputation as a good “defensive” center, and maybe they’ll stop telling you where to be or even listen to some of your suggestions on how to improve. 

[chk hrd 164]

When I coached or play with new guys I tell them to watch as much high level hockey they can to see what they are doing. It boggles my mind the way most beer leaguers take a defensive zone face off, especially when a lot of them have been playing for years. I couldn't count how many times I've played wing and lined up on the inside of the circle to have the other wing line up on the opposite side against the boards when he should be behind me because he plays the opposite wing. You would think guys who have supposedly played for a long time (especially the younger ones) would know but you still see them at the blue line when your trying to break out.

[psulion22 402]

The guys that play that way do it because they've been playing that way for a while (typically without being coached since these philosophies have changed).  It's how they were taught and had drilled into their heads.  And even young guys are coached this way if their coaches still go with what they were taught.  I know of 2 teammates that coach travel teams who do it the old way, and will argue with you until the day they die about it.  You can show them all the videos and explanations in the world and they won't budge.  They typical answer is "we're not in the NHL."

I was once threatened by the captain of a beer league team because I kept lining up on the inside instead of the boards on defensive zone draws.  Nevermind that every time we did it, I got the puck and beat their defense.  4 d-zone faceoffs and we ended up with a goal, 2 2-on-1's, and a penalty for tripping a guy on a breakaway.  Me and the other wing knew what to do, and none of their guys did.  But on the bench after drawing the penalty he told me if I lined up like that again, I wouldn't play.  The reason - he was a righty and would win almost every one of those faceoffs straight across the circle to the left to me on the boards by just slapping the drop on his forehand.  He said when I wasn't there, he didn't know what to do and was losing draws (although I was getting to all of them, so technically he was winning them in the stats) and we "couldn't keep losing draws in our end".  He was more upset that his little trick wasn't working anymore than he was positive because the other team had no answer.

[marka 526]

Howdy,
 

I've been playing beer league for a couple years and this is the first time I've seen an explanation for "other than the typical wings on either side of the circle" faceoff.  And that's good to see and it does make sense (and I'm going to try and introduce it to a couple teams I'm on).

That said, I think playing as a team is more important than "being right".  That's even more true if you're a sub / new to the team.  YMMV.

Mark

[psulion22 402]

21 minutes ago, marka said:

Howdy,
 

I've been playing beer league for a couple years and this is the first time I've seen an explanation for "other than the typical wings on either side of the circle" faceoff.  And that's good to see and it does make sense (and I'm going to try and introduce it to a couple teams I'm on).

That said, I think playing as a team is more important than "being right".  That's even more true if you're a sub / new to the team.  YMMV.

Mark

Here's Weisstech's video about defensive faceoff strategies.  If your team is receptive, you can show them this to help explain and support your idea.

I do agree that getting along may be better than being right, especially if you're new or infrequent.  That's why I suggested just doing what the defenseman wanted without any discussion about it.  But it will cause issues during the game, which cause issues on the bench.  So I was just preparing the OP for that.  Maybe there are other ways of going about it.  Talking to the captain about this new way you saw that might work better and seeing what the response is like is a good one.  However, talking to the defenseman directly is never going to yield a good result.  That's all I was saying.

[psulion22 402]

Tacky double post - but I wanted to make sure you saw it instead of just editing, @marka.  In this video, he has the defensemen on the wrong sides and you may wonder why.  The modern way of thinking is to put defensemen on their strong side of the ice - RH on RD and LH on LD.  This is to put retrievals on the boards and quick outlets up the same side are on the forehand, making them easier.  Plus in a defensive posture, you are covering more of the middle of the ice with your stick when it's in one hand.  Obviously, it's not a hard and fast rule.  But it really does help.  So on these faceoffs, you switch the D sides so that on a win, the wrap play in on the defender's forehand when he turns around.  You really want to be breaking the puck out, especially on d zone faceoffs, by going behind the net to the other side because it's away from all the traffic.  It makes no sense to go up the same side boards as the faceoff when the entire other team is in that small area on that side.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

6 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

Tacky double post - but I wanted to make sure you saw it instead of just editing, @marka.  In this video, he has the defensemen on the wrong sides and you may wonder why.  The modern way of thinking is to put defensemen on their strong side of the ice - RH on RD and LH on LD.  This is to put retrievals on the boards and quick outlets up the same side are on the forehand, making them easier.  Plus in a defensive posture, you are covering more of the middle of the ice with your stick when it's in one hand.  Obviously, it's not a hard and fast rule.  But it really does help.  So on these faceoffs, you switch the D sides so that on a win, the wrap play in on the defender's forehand when he turns around.  You really want to be breaking the puck out, especially on d zone faceoffs, by going behind the net to the other side because it's away from all the traffic.  It makes no sense to go up the same side boards as the faceoff when the entire other team is in that small area on that side.

Interesting.  Thanks!

I actually watched that video the other day, but missed that he'd swapped the D sides for the faceoff.

Mark

[chk hrd 164]

Simple explanation for the face off. Right wing (You) is responsible for Left D who is around the blue line on the boards. If right wing is on board side of face off dot the and the puck is won to Left D the Left W on the other team ties you up and the Left D gets the puck and is free to shoot or pass. If the Right W (you) lines up on the slot side and the face off goes to the Left D you are usually free to go straight at him. Even if the D gets the puck you are in the shooting lane and also can move if he goes sideways. If D man gets the puck and his options are taken away they usually play it safe and dump it into the corner. I don't know how many breakaways I've gotten because the D takes a shot and bounces it off my shin pads. If the face off doesn't make it out of the circle you are already moving that way to scoop it up. If it's tied up between the guys taking the faceoff you are there for support. Most of the time your Right D should line up on the hash marks against the Left W, since it's beer league, if I'm playing D I usually line up at about 5:00 on the circle. I'm not as concerned about the face off being won on the board side, even if the Left W does get it his options are limited, but if the draw is won back to the corner it gives me a little more time to get to it and do something with it. There are so many reason to take the face off this way. 

[Playmakersedge 58]

I don't know if this helps at all . I played center and I did in a bit of a out othe box way .   I played a lot of ice and never moved from a stand still  . I wouldn't want my wings  to go any further  then the top of the circle and no further toward the corner then just at the hash  that side d would take  the corner if the play was going there.  By this time I'm roving  and looping  ,watching the set ups  .The other wing is at the distance of the far post but no further out then top of the circle.  One d is covering the man at the net  . As I'm looping and roving I can see the action  and available for a pas on a break  out  or steal a pass that the opposition is trying to get to open man. Many times I would set this allusion of the strong side sht the opposition would was to that man and I would  loop threw and  grab it .then depending on how I was covered,  Would usually kill time till  both whinings  and  d  run a weave up ice ..... or if the play was less controlled  I would    go to the struggle and the wing or d would  pull out and give me passing options  . . The entire time being mindul of the goalkeepers  sight line to the play  . Lots of signal and communication.   ... on a face off in our end depending on strength on the opposite team I would not be as concerned about winning the face off by drawing the puck back and over ; I would  drive forward taking the other center and his stick  . This giving another of my players time to get the puck from behind me .  Expect it to be the d . Then I expect him to go around the back of the net . Expect that side wing to skate up ice but diagonal toward those  boards and get a bank pass from the d . The other wing going straight up ice . Im skating now diagonal so i am also available for a pass  . If this goes down perfect you end up catching the opposing D a little flat footed and or passed around them threw the gaps .text book  play at all  but worked.        Hope this gives you some ideas

[psulion22 402]

This is a similar system to what would be called a “sagging zone” or “active/aggressive box+1” (see videos from the guy above). And it’s pretty similar to what some NHL teams use (like the Rangers, though they do I very poorly). The idea is to put pressure on the puck to create turnovers (“outnumber the puck”). It can work very well when it’s done correctly because the idea on defense is to take away time and space. But as you said, it requires a lot of communication and coordination. If done incorrectly, it leads to a lot of guys out of position and opponents left open in the middle (see: NY Rangers). For a typical beer league team (especially one where at least one defenseman wants the wings high) it probably isn’t going to work well. But nice job adding another way of thinking about it. 

[chk hrd 164]

I think one of the things that confuses new players is when they are told to cover the D. It doesn't mean you need to be tight on them all the time. it means they are your responsibility. You need to know where they are and take away the lanes. That doesn't mean letting them roam free and playing below the hash marks in the D zone. If they do get the puck you, generally should be the first one to them. If they start moving, like down the slot, you should be on them. I don't think beer league players communicate enough, probably because team mates sometimes get mad because they think they are being told what to do. You need to let each other know what you're doing. If the D moves low and the wing moves high you have to communicate who has who.  

[marka 526]

Howdy,

On 2/8/2018 at 2:59 PM, psulion22 said:

Here's Weisstech's video about defensive faceoff st

 

Gave this a go a couple times tonight playing wing.  Helped that their offensive board-side winger didn't line up on the hash marks.

Both times I ended up skating through behind the centers on the way to the point, intercepted a weak win backwards by the opposing team, and skated through to a breakout!  :-)  Fun times.  :-)

Mark

[psulion22 402]

11 hours ago, marka said:

Howdy,

 

Gave this a go a couple times tonight playing wing.  Helped that their offensive board-side winger didn't line up on the hash marks.

Both times I ended up skating through behind the centers on the way to the point, intercepted a weak win backwards by the opposing team, and skated through to a breakout!  :-)  Fun times.  :-)

Mark

It's incredible how well this works against beer league teams who don't know what to do in all faceoff situations.  They just want to win the draw straight back to the point and don't get wing support when that doesn't happen.  You can just swoop in unmarked, pick up the weak win with a lot of space, and get the puck out past two defensemen who are standing still at the blue line.

[chk hrd 164]

The sad thing is that no matter how many times you explain it and how many times they see it work for blocking shots, picking up loose pucks or getting breakaways out of it players still refuse to try it and go back to the wing on the board face off.