Physical Play in C League

[jpeaslee 30]

I grew up playing roller in South GA (not exactly Hockeytown USA) but recently moved up to Huntsville, AL where there's actually ice.  I finally am playing ice and loving it.  I've always been a more physical player (6'2" 250lbs) but not dirty.  I keep catching flak for playing too rough or "checking" (always from players, never from refs).  

How much leeway do I have moving bodies out from in front of the net on defense? Can I come up from behind someone and walk them out from in front of the net (pushing my body forward with my legs, not cross checking them out of the way).  When getting double teamed on the boards, is it somehow dirty to skate through these guys?  I definitely have a stronger legs/stability than most of these guys and I'm bigger too.  Am I just a magnet because of my size and being better on my feet as well as low level players tend to whine about stuff?  

I'm not being any more physical than I was when playing roller, but I knew those guys and it's just how we played.  

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

I find guys who are more aggressive and skate through other players often get that rap.  It shard to define what is too rough and what is not but like they say: "I may not be able to define porn but I know it when I see it!"

[jpeaslee 30]

6 minutes ago, dkmiller3356 said:

I find guys who are more aggressive and skate through other players often get that rap.  It shard to define what is too rough and what is not but like they say: "I may not be able to define porn but I know it when I see it!"

I definitely get that.  I'm not reckless or uncontrolled.  I don't ever knock anyone around, but I'm definitely an aggressive player.  Often guys will try an do similar things to me, and end up on their ass.  Last night I had a guy push me from behind in front of the net, he fell on his ass, and then was screaming at me.  I literally did nothing.  Didn't push, didn't use my arms, I just didn't give.  I think I'm going to move up to d2 next session and hopefully that will fix some of that.  A vast majority of guys in our league learned hockey at a later age, so this is not only the highest level of hockey they've ever played, but also they're coming from football, basketball, etc.  

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

6 hours ago, jpeaslee said:

I grew up playing roller in South GA (not exactly Hockeytown USA) but recently moved up to Huntsville, AL where there's actually ice.  I finally am playing ice and loving it.  I've always been a more physical player (6'2" 250lbs) but not dirty.  I keep catching flak for playing too rough or "checking" (always from players, never from refs).  

How much leeway do I have moving bodies out from in front of the net on defense? Can I come up from behind someone and walk them out from in front of the net (pushing my body forward with my legs, not cross checking them out of the way).  When getting double teamed on the boards, is it somehow dirty to skate through these guys?  I definitely have a stronger legs/stability than most of these guys and I'm bigger too.  Am I just a magnet because of my size and being better on my feet as well as low level players tend to whine about stuff?  

I'm not being any more physical than I was when playing roller, but I knew those guys and it's just how we played.  

This topic needs to come up more often because I see this way too often (both as a player and a referee). One should have the ability to adjust their physicality if they don't want people complaining. It's men's league. People have to wake up the next morning for work ha. When I ref, I look to see if the physicality is going both ways and the intent of the physicality. Unless we are there, no way we can truly assess your "issue." What I can say is that most times, physical play ISN'T needed. Doesn't stop people from trying to earn a contract...

[puckpilot 312]

If you're way bigger than most guys, you're going catch flak for any sort of bump that results in anything that looks or sounds dramatic, even if you didn't do much of anything.

For me, if I'm in front of the net and you shove or body me out, with one hand or two, without crosscheking me, I'm find with it. To me, that's fair game. 

When along the boards, it kind of depends on what you mean by skate through. I mean if you're battling on the boards and get the puck and just skate out with it steady as the other two players are clinging to you like toilet paper on your shoe, I don't see anything wrong with it. But if you're throwing shoulders into their chins to get them out of the way, well, maybe that's not so cool.

I'm a small guy, 5'5 and when I play against guys your size, the ones I respect most are the ones who know how to use their size to simply body me out of the way while being in control.  For me, I can't bitch about that, even if I end up on my ass. Like I said fair game. 

The ones I hate are the ones who are out of control, and are either too stupid to realize or don't care. They're the ones who accidentally elbow you in the chops while skating by even though the play is waaaay up ice. Stupid stuff like that drives me bonkers. 

Any way my 2 cents

[jpeaslee 30]

1 hour ago, 215BroadStBullies610 said:

This topic needs to come up more often because I see this way too often (both as a player and a referee). One should have the ability to adjust their physicality if they don't want people complaining. It's men's league. People have to wake up the next morning for work ha. When I ref, I look to see if the physicality is going both ways and the intent of the physicality. Unless we are there, no way we can truly asses your "issue." What I can say is that most times, physical play ISN'T needed. Doesn't stop people from trying to earn a contract...

I hear what you're saying. I feel like I know exactly the type of player you're talking about, and I don't feel like it's me.  There are a couple guys in our league that are always throwing those hooks, slashes, and elbows in the there, and they seem to be the biggest complainers in general. 

I guess I was hoping for a fairly objective answer for what is appropriate in front of the net and in the grinds in the corners. The guys in my team say I'm fine, I just like to know where I stand and where the boundaries are. Most of the guys I play against enjoy playing with me and will chat it up after the game. 

I appreciate the feedback boys. 

[jpeaslee 30]

3 minutes ago, puckpilot said:

If you're way bigger than most guys, you're going catch flak for any sort of bump that results in anything that looks or sounds dramatic, even if you didn't do much of anything.

For me, if I'm in front of the net and you shove or body me out, with one hand or two, without crosscheking me, I'm find with it. To me, that's fair game. 

When along the boards, it kind of depends on what you mean by skate through. I mean if you're battling on the boards and get the puck and just skate out with it steady as the other two players are clinging to you like toilet paper on your shoe, I don't see anything wrong with it. But if you're throwing shoulders into their chins to get them out of the way, well, maybe that's not so cool.

I'm a small guy, 5'5 and when I play against guys your size, the ones I respect most are the ones who know how to use their size to simply body me out of the way while being in control.  For me, I can't bitch about that, even if I end up on my ass. Like I said fair game. 

The ones I hate are the ones who are out of control, and are either too stupid to realize ore don't care. 

Any way my 2 cents

That's exactly how I feel like I'm playing. I keep my elbows and shoulders out of the mix, but I'm not just going to roll over when getting pinned against the boats. The guys that do that and then throw a an elbow or hook as I'm leaving just piss me off a little.  I need to just get over that.  I know as well as anyone that we all have to go to work the next day (i got 3 weeks of PT over the Christmas break due to a dirty trip and head first slide into the boards) and I never want to be on the other end of that. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

3 hours ago, jpeaslee said:

That's exactly how I feel like I'm playing. I keep my elbows and shoulders out of the mix, but I'm not just going to roll over when getting pinned against the boats. The guys that do that and then throw a an elbow or hook as I'm leaving just piss me off a little.  I need to just get over that.  I know as well as anyone that we all have to go to work the next day (i got 3 weeks of PT over the Christmas break due to a dirty trip and head first slide into the boards) and I never want to be on the other end of that. 

Ask yourself this...  will you avoid contact when you can?  Or do you choose to shake into and through people?  Do you make an attempt to avoid physical play?  Do you lower that shoulder when skating into traffic.  Lots of stuff goes into the but like @215BroadStBullies610 said, if we are not there we can't tell.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

Is C league there the beginner league?  Around here, C league is frequently "played High School / lower Junior / club college" folks.  The beginner leagues are E or D.

I only started a couple years ago, but I've found more tolerance for physical (but still non-checking) play as the level increases.  There's also differences between groups at different rinks / leagues.

My general rule of thumb on it is that if folks are bitching about you, consider toning it down, particularly in a beginner group.  That's especially true if you're one of the better people in your league.  Also, around here guys that come from roller or deck playing in the beginner leagues are usually WAY different from 'true beginners' as mostly its just their skating that needs work, not _everything_.  :-)

Seeing is believing though.

Mark

[Haggerty 144]

7 hours ago, marka said:

Howdy,

Is C league there the beginner league?  Around here, C league is frequently "played High School / lower Junior / club college" folks.  The beginner leagues are E or D.

I only started a couple years ago, but I've found more tolerance for physical (but still non-checking) play as the level increases.  There's also differences between groups at different rinks / leagues.

My general rule of thumb on it is that if folks are bitching about you, consider toning it down, particularly in a beginner group.  That's especially true if you're one of the better people in your league.  Also, around here guys that come from roller or deck playing in the beginner leagues are usually WAY different from 'true beginners' as mostly its just their skating that needs work, not _everything_.  :-)

Seeing is believing though.

Mark

I see the opposite here; the higher the level of the league the less amount of hack jobs there are.  Most guys that have played for a long time know they aren't playing for the stanley cup.  C league on the other hand people think every game is the stanley cup and they have to balls to the wall.  Another note that if you do that in a top league you better know how to drop the mitts because another will and has done it for a living somewhere and isn't afraid to make an example out of you.  My 2 cents.

[jpeaslee 30]

1 hour ago, Haggerty said:

I see the opposite here; the higher the level of the league the less amount of hack jobs there are.  Most guys that have played for a long time know they aren't playing for the stanley cup.  C league on the other hand people think every game is the stanley cup and they have to balls to the wall.  Another note that if you do that in a top league you better know how to drop the mitts because another will and has done it for a living somewhere and isn't afraid to make an example out of you.  My 2 cents.

I feel like we're possibly talking about two different types of things here.  To me there's a big difference between hack jobs (hooks, slashes, elbows, etc.) and physical but non-checking play.  Maybe there isn't a difference, and that's my problem, but I'm not talking about using a stick or really appendages in any of the instances I'm taking about,  at anyone's feet tripping them up or holding them, not talking about skating into people.  Talking to most of the guys we play against after the game they comment on how fun it was blah blah, but there's one or two guys on every team that are constantly complaining about everything during the game, throwing threats (not chirps) etc.  Most games there are 2-3 penalties, I haven't been one of them (can I take that as a sign that I'm ok, or just crappy refs?)

C league here isn't the lowest level, it's a step up from a beginner league, a lot of guys that played in high school, took some time off and got back at it, or guys that are stepping up from our real beginner league.  

I really hope I'm not sounding argumentative here, as my goal in hockey is to have fun and get some exercise, and my goal in this is to help clarify what's appropriate and what's not.  I'm not really a competitive person, but also if I just wanted to skate laps with a puck, I'd be at stick and puck instead of forking out for league fees.  I get invited to some of the regular pickup games when they're short players, and I've definitely built up some contacts in the league outside of my team, so I don't feel like I'm a terrible guy to play with (though maybe against?)

So if someone is posted up in front of your goalie, how is an appropriate way to move them?

 

[puckpilot 312]

For me, you have to also look at who's doing the complaining. Some guys will whack you in the head and blame you for skating into there stick. They'll whine about someone just taking the puck away from them. 

 

As for guys guys posting up, imho, as long as your not cross checking me to kingdom come, I'm fine getting shoved out. 

[Haggerty 144]

Don't have to deal with people posting up normally most guys in higher levels find open areas to be not sitting in front of the net.  All depends on the talent level on the ice really, obviously if you are a weaker skater posting up in front of the net is a good idea to get goals, dino ciccarelli and phil Esposito made a hall of fame game out of it.  Most guys that have played at a higher level don't feel it necessary to grind away in front of the net on something you are doing for fun. 

If someone is sitting in front most people just tie up the stick, if you really want to move the guy where ever his torso goes he goes so just think of that.

[psulion22 402]

Typically, when someone posts something like this, they're wrong.  It's just the way it is.  It's always the same also - "I'm not using my hands/elbows/stick", "My teammates say it's ok", "I'm not getting penalties", "it's just a few guys that seem to complain about everything".  You don't want constructive advice on what's ok, you want someone to tell you it's ok to do what you're doing.  You've had more than one tell you it's probably overly aggressive, but you keep trying to justify it and say you're still looking for advice.  If people are telling you that you're playing too physical, you're playing too physical.  According to the USA Hockey rulebook, it's your job to refrain from all avoidable or deliberate physical contact.  Would you say that you are doing that?  Is the body contact you are making unavoidable?  It doesn't sound like it to me.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

21 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

Typically, when someone posts something like this, they're wrong.  It's just the way it is.  It's always the same also - "I'm not using my hands/elbows/stick", "My teammates say it's ok", "I'm not getting penalties", "it's just a few guys that seem to complain about everything".  You don't want constructive advice on what's ok, you want someone to tell you it's ok to do what you're doing.  You've had more than one tell you it's probably overly aggressive, but you keep trying to justify it and say you're still looking for advice.  If people are telling you that you're playing too physical, you're playing too physical.  According to the USA Hockey rulebook, it's your job to refrain from all avoidable or deliberate physical contact.  Would you say that you are doing that?  Is the body contact you are making unavoidable?  It doesn't sound like it to me.

Agree with every word you said. This thread reminds me so much of the other one we had a few months ago with the former football player that wanted to be "an energy guy" in beer league. 

[jpeaslee 30]

31 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

Typically, when someone posts something like this, they're wrong.  It's just the way it is.  It's always the same also - "I'm not using my hands/elbows/stick", "My teammates say it's ok", "I'm not getting penalties", "it's just a few guys that seem to complain about everything".  You don't want constructive advice on what's ok, you want someone to tell you it's ok to do what you're doing.  You've had more than one tell you it's probably overly aggressive, but you keep trying to justify it and say you're still looking for advice.  If people are telling you that you're playing too physical, you're playing too physical.  According to the USA Hockey rulebook, it's your job to refrain from all avoidable or deliberate physical contact.  Would you say that you are doing that?  Is the body contact you are making unavoidable?  It doesn't sound like it to me.

I hear where you're coming from, and I appreciate that.  I definitely have taken some comments into consideration (whether my responses show that or not), and I do appreciate the feedback from the forum.  I guess most of what I was looking for was an objective answer on a subject that seems fairly subjective, which you did give the most objective answer so far, despite the rest of your response.  I thought about not posting the thread for fear it might turn into one of those threads you mentioned awhile back, but thought there might be some good info that came out of it.  Thanks again for the feedback boys.

[psulion22 402]

3 minutes ago, jpeaslee said:

I hear where you're coming from, and I appreciate that.  I definitely have taken some comments into consideration (whether my responses show that or not), and I do appreciate the feedback from the forum.  I guess most of what I was looking for was an objective answer on a subject that seems fairly subjective, which you did give the most objective answer so far, despite the rest of your response.  I thought about not posting the thread for fear it might turn into one of those threads you mentioned awhile back, but thought there might be some good info that came out of it.  Thanks again for the feedback boys.

I did not mean to be insulting, so please don't take it that way.  We've seen a lot of these types of threads (and I've seen them in other hockey related groups) and the best response is a harsh one that leaves no ambiguity.  I play a little physical myself, particularly when an opponent is trying to gain the blue line.  I will step up and try to get the pass or force the play off side and that does cause some contact.  Or I will turn and angle the guy towards the boards, then squeeze the play off and take the puck when he runs out of space.  It appears to be physical, but I'm not actually doing anything.  They skate into the boards on their own.  In either case, I'm not making any deliberate contact, and the other guy is more skating into me.  I'm not going out of my way to make contact with anyone, but I am entitled to my space on the ice and I'm not getting out of their way either (within reason of course).  If you're playing on the boards and in front, and you're going outside of your entitled space to make contact in their entitled space, you're probably playing too physically.

[jpeaslee 30]

2 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

I did not mean to be insulting, so please don't take it that way.  We've seen a lot of these types of threads (and I've seen them in other hockey related groups) and the best response is a harsh one that leaves no ambiguity.  I play a little physical myself, particularly when an opponent is trying to gain the blue line.  I will step up and try to get the pass or force the play off side and that does cause some contact.  Or I will turn and angle the guy towards the boards, then squeeze the play off and take the puck when he runs out of space.  It appears to be physical, but I'm not actually doing anything.  They skate into the boards on their own.  In either case, I'm not making any deliberate contact, and the other guy is more skating into me.  I'm not going out of my way to make contact with anyone, but I am entitled to my space on the ice and I'm not getting out of their way either (within reason of course).  If you're playing on the boards and in front, and you're going outside of your entitled space to make contact in their entitled space, you're probably playing too physically.

No worries man, I probably did take it the wrong way.  Open ice I'm the same way skating around players is easier than through them, I keep control of the play/puck better and maintain my speed.  On D, I will progressively step forward a little bit, but mostly just force them to skate to the outside (not physically, unless they decide to skate through me).  I might not have given that idea on my previous posts.  

If I go to a puck at the boards first and there's a guy or two that come in behind me is where I was coming from on that front.  I don't know how I can avoid that contact, but if they're pinning me against the boards, am I wrong for skating away if I can (as long as I'm not throwing an elbow or dropping a shoulder?).  This is a scenario that guys tend to get pissed at and usually throw a hook or slash as I'm leaving.
 

I've been playing wing or center, but none of our other forwards back check much, so I do end up playing 3rd D a lot on defense, which on our team often leaves me covering the guy in the slot (I know this isn't great hockey, but it's our teams first season and we're definitely lacking in a lot of fundamentals.)  I hear "get the guy out of the slot" a lot.  Should I just be covering him, or moving him out of the slot?  If so, how?

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

IN front of the net it is fine to push and body him out, as long as you are not cross checking or skating at the gut delivering a bow with speed.

[psulion22 402]

I really don't know how to make it more clear.  Are you going outside of your entitled space on the ice into theirs to make contact?  If you're pushing someone in front of the net, then I'd say yes.  If you're on the boards and have the puck, and are stepping towards a player to make space, then I'd say yes too (Forsberg loved to do this).  Again, you don't have to get out of the way, but you can't go into another player's space to initiate contact.  Initiate is the key.  In what you're describing, from both a playing and officiating perspective, I'd say you're playing too physically because you're the one starting the contact.  You can tie up and box out in front of the net, but once you start pushing (using your hands or not) it's probably going too far.

[jpeaslee 30]

13 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

I really don't know how to make it more clear.  Are you going outside of your entitled space on the ice into theirs to make contact?  If you're pushing someone in front of the net, then I'd say yes.  If you're on the boards and have the puck, and are stepping towards a player to make space, then I'd say yes too (Forsberg loved to do this).  Again, you don't have to get out of the way, but you can't go into another player's space to initiate contact.  Initiate is the key.  In what you're describing, from both a playing and officiating perspective, I'd say you're playing too physically because you're the one starting the contact.  You can tie up and box out in front of the net, but once you start pushing (using your hands or not) it's probably going to far.

Well, that is more clear, haha.  So if I'm first on the puck and they come in and I get pinned against the boards, I'm stuck?  In my mind in that scenario, I'm not making first contact, but that seems like it's not the case.  If that's how it's supposed to be, that's fine, just not how I've been playing or seeing it often played.  

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like you and DKMiller are saying different things on what's kosher in front of the net? 

 

[marka 526]

Howdy,

18 minutes ago, jpeaslee said:

Well, that is more clear, haha.  So if I'm first on the puck and they come in and I get pinned against the boards, I'm stuck?  In my mind in that scenario, I'm not making first contact, but that seems like it's not the case.  If that's how it's supposed to be, that's fine, just not how I've been playing or seeing it often played.  

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like you and DKMiller are saying different things on what's kosher in front of the net? 

 

It's not just you.  I'm reading what they're saying is ok in front of the net differently as well.  FWIW that maps pretty well to my version of real life... Different players accept / perform different amounts of "ok contact".  As a for instance, @psulion22's description of angling someone off on the boards so they run out of room would anger some people I play with more than a minor shove in front of the net.

As to "I won the race to the puck on the boards, then I get tied up by the opposing player"... If you're taking about physically tied up... I.e. he initiates (reasonable/light) contact and is holding pressure on you to keep you on the boards / in one spot... I'd say you're for sure good to push back / skate through that.  You're not good to throw an elbow, spear, crosscheck, etc.  To me (keeping in mind I'm pretty inexperienced), both the "tying you up" and "skate through / push back" are just normal non-checking hockey.

As someone still pretty new, I tend to like these discussions btw.  It helps me establish my own thoughts as to what's ok and what's not.  Certainly when I first started I thought "Non-Checking" meant "Non-Contact" and that was just not accurate for how hockey has been played in the leagues I play in.

Mark

[psulion22 402]

No one ever accused someone of playing too physical because they got pinned on the boards.  You're doing more than just getting yourself free, or just pushing in front of the net and you know it.  Period.  End of story.  You're looking for someone to tell you that what you're doing is ok like the other johnny try hards that have posted the same questions.  You know what you're doing wrong, it's up to you to decide whether to accept it or not.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

If you're questioning what's okay, then you already know the answer. That goes for most things in life. 

[psulion22 402]

29 minutes ago, marka said:

Howdy,

It's not just you.  I'm reading what they're saying is ok in front of the net differently as well.  FWIW that maps pretty well to my version of real life... Different players accept / perform different amounts of "ok contact".  As a for instance, @psulion22's description of angling someone off on the boards so they run out of room would anger some people I play with more than a minor shove in front of the net.

As to "I won the race to the puck on the boards, then I get tied up by the opposing player"... If you're taking about physically tied up... I.e. he initiates (reasonable/light) contact and is holding pressure on you to keep you on the boards / in one spot... I'd say you're for sure good to push back / skate through that.  You're not good to throw an elbow, spear, crosscheck, etc.  To me (keeping in mind I'm pretty inexperienced), both the "tying you up" and "skate through / push back" are just normal non-checking hockey.

As someone still pretty new, I tend to like these discussions btw.  It helps me establish my own thoughts as to what's ok and what's not.  Certainly when I first started I thought "Non-Checking" meant "Non-Contact" and that was just not accurate for how hockey has been played in the leagues I play in.

Mark

We're saying the same thing.  It's ok to lean on a guy or use a hand to guide ("push") him.  You're staying in your space.  Once you start pushing or using your body (especially elbows, shoulders, or stick) hard enough to knock someone down, especially by taking a stride towards them, it's not.

I used to get called for angling all the time, and couldn't figure out why.  I was entitled to that space, and never even changed my skating lane, and rulebook specifically says it's ok even in non-checking classifications.  Eventually a teammate told me to just "guide" the player towards the boards "gently" and always make sure you get control of the puck at the end.  (He actually said make love, dont F@%$ him)  I rarely get called for it now because I just skate parallel to him and the boards and step in front when he's out of room, lift his stick, and take the puck.  He can stop if he wants, but if wants to skate into the boards, that's on him.  It not always about what you do, but rather how you do it.