Heel Punch

[krisdrum 233]

I'm currently in some Graf 535 and looking for something with a similar foot shape (narrow heel, medium/wide toe box) with a bit more of a modern approach.  Found a pair of Graf PK4400 that seemed like a good bet.  And I think they are... however, my heels are moving when laced up.  Not side to side, but up and down when I flex my ankle.  Not much, but enough I feel it and think it could become a problem.  I get no movement in my 535.  Looking at the boots side by side, my 535 have a pocket that hooks my heel from on top and holds it down.  The 4400 don't, they have a much flatter profile in the heel.  Would it be possible to punch/mold a similar pocket into the 4400 to help hold my heel down?  Or is it a lost cause and I should just return them?  I haven't baked them or done anything to them.  Just tried on straight out of the box.

I have narrow heels that also bump out from my achilles and rest of my foot.  So they don't provide a lot of surface area for a skate to hold onto.  And most skates don't have a pocket that overhangs the heel, so heel lock has been an issue in nearly all skates I've tried.

I did see some info about doing the VH "tissue" mold, but also know heels in most skates are the least moldable/most reinforced making a traditional punch or tissue approach tough. 

Thoughts?

[Giltis 116]

Try baking them first, I would try the tissue method (I don't think it could hurt to at least try). My old Tacks had a similar problem, and it worked much better with a bake for sure.

[krisdrum 233]

21 minutes ago, Giltis said:

Try baking them first, I would try the tissue method (I don't think it could hurt to at least try). My old Tacks had a similar problem, and it worked much better with a bake for sure.

Hesitant to bake and hope for the best as that would likely remove the opportunity to return them.  Was hoping for a bit more confidence before taking the plunge. 

[Giltis 116]

Unfortunately, without seeing you in person, it'd be pretty hard to be 100% confident. For a more aggressive approach, there's always this method as well using clamps.

 

[krisdrum 233]

Yeah, been there, done that, got the t shirt.  I don't think narrower is the answer here, as my heel doesn't move side to side.  Only up and down a few mm.  Think I may bring them to my local shop to get their opinion as well. 

[Vet88 674]

I've covered this in another thread, shaping and punching the heel is extremely difficult unless you have the right tools and even then it is a very hard job. I've punched them for heel bumps but never tried to shape an entire one for a heel. imho I think it will be beyond most LHS's unless they have some specialised gear.

How much volume do you have in the skate? If you have space try putting something under the tongue next time you lace up so the top laces help to push the heel into the pocket and keep it locked there. Maybe a thicker tongue will help. Downside to this approach is it may increase pressure on the top of the ankle leading to lace bite problems.

As to heel lock itself, I no longer think it is as necessary as everyone seems to think. If you asked me this 2 years ago I'd have said it was one of the most important things you need in a skate fit but 2 years of skating without laces has proved to me it really matters sweet fa.

[Larry54 243]

9 hours ago, Vet88 said:

I've covered this in another thread, shaping and punching the heel is extremely difficult unless you have the right tools and even then it is a very hard job. I've punched them for heel bumps but never tried to shape an entire one for a heel. imho I think it will be beyond most LHS's unless they have some specialised gear.

How much volume do you have in the skate? If you have space try putting something under the tongue next time you lace up so the top laces help to push the heel into the pocket and keep it locked there. Maybe a thicker tongue will help. Downside to this approach is it may increase pressure on the top of the ankle leading to lace bite problems.

As to heel lock itself, I no longer think it is as necessary as everyone seems to think. If you asked me this 2 years ago I'd have said it was one of the most important things you need in a skate fit but 2 years of skating without laces has proved to me it really matters sweet fa.

I've also noticed this recently after having followed your advice for a while. At one point, I wondered if your techniques contradicted the concept of requiring perfect heel lock. After several months with looser skates, I'm not even preoccupied with heel lock, and my skating just feels free and un-confined. On a side note, I've even been wondering if people could solve lace bite just by adopting your techniques.

[krisdrum 233]

Interesting, thanks guys.  The volume of the instep is fine and I probably could add something to the back of the tongue to see if that reduces the ability for me to lift my heel without significantly increasing lacebite. 

[krisdrum 233]

Experiment FAILED!  Just tried my 535s and the 4400s on back to back and there is no comparison on fit.  The 535 win hands down.  Granted, they are baked, but the way they grab my heel and back of my foot is far superior to the 4400s.  I don't think, even with a bake the 4400s will provide that level of fit and are going back to the seller.  The search continues.  Or maybe it doesn't.  I did a bit of messing with how I laced the 535s and snug bottom but pretty cranked on the top 3-4 eyelets to pull the sides in probably gives me what I thought I was going to gain with a more modern boot. 

[stick9 890]

I think you need to start with a good bake. My apologies if that's already been done. Sounds like it hasn't.

One thing you could try is changing the footbed to something with a thicker heel cup like Superfeet. That might help get rid of some of the negative space. Stable socks would be another option.

[Vet88 674]

On 3/30/2019 at 6:37 AM, krisdrum said:

I did a bit of messing with how I laced the 535s and snug bottom but pretty cranked on the top 3-4 eyelets to pull the sides in probably gives me what I thought I was going to gain with a more modern boot. 

You will only gain it with a modern boot if that boot follows the general shape of your foot. A narrow heel in a wide heel boot will forever slop around. If it is a high end boot with stiff quarters you can mitigate this by compressing the sides of the boot inwards but over time the boot always wants to return outwards to its original shape. If you do decide to try moving the sides inwards, there are 2 methods I have used.

1: Heat the boot then use clamps to squeeze the sides in under the ankles. There are a number of examples of this on youtube.

2: Heat one rear quarter, I always start with the inner side first, put the boot on and lace up then lie on your side on the floor with the heated side facing upward (use books etc to support the holder so the blade remains flat and level). Get someone to stand on the boot in their bare feet so the boot shapes around your ankle and heel area. Repeat 24 hours later on the outer side.

[krisdrum 233]

On 3/30/2019 at 7:53 AM, stick9 said:

I think you need to start with a good bake. My apologies if that's already been done. Sounds like it hasn't.

One thing you could try is changing the footbed to something with a thicker heel cup like Superfeet. That might help get rid of some of the negative space. Stable socks would be another option.

Thanks.  I use Superfeet and tried them on with them in.  Still too much room for my liking.  I'm just going to stick with what I have for the moment and re-evaluate down the road.