Side effects of pitching

[hockeydad3 51]

How does changing the pitch alter the skatingcharacteristics of a skate? For example going from a neutral pitch to a +2 forward pitch, can this alter the turning abilities of the profile or the sharpness of the hollow?

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 9/26/2019 at 12:51 PM, hockeydad3 said:

How does changing the pitch alter the skatingcharacteristics of a skate? For example going from a neutral pitch to a +2 forward pitch, can this alter the turning abilities of the profile or the sharpness of the hollow?

Sharpness, typically no.

Turning, yes. 

Usually pitch adjustments are done at the same time as profiling the steel. Are you keeping the same profile but just adding a forward pitch? How did you determine you wanted a +2 pitch as that is quite aggressive?

Edited September 28, 2019 by SkateWorksPNW

[hockeydad3 51]

13 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Sharpness, typically no.

Turning, yes. 

Usually pitch adjustments are done at the same time as profiling the steel. Are you keeping the same profile but just adding a forward pitch? How did you determine you wanted a +2 pitch as that is quite aggressive?

I changed from a N2900 with a SuperFeet insole and a neutral pitch, 13' radius and a 92/50FBV to a Supreme 180 with a very thin insole and the same runner. The profile didn't feel good anymore and I was feeling my weight too much towards my heels.  So I was trying a 11' radius +1 forward pitch with a 92/75FBV(which was OK for me with a stock 10' profile before). The pitch was feeling good but I couldn't turn or stop anymore because the edges were way too sharp. 

This was the point where I was opening this thread. Meanwhile I went via a 95/50FBV(too shallow) to a 90/75FBV which seems to be a good starting point to get used to the new setup. Didn't think That a change between a 92/75FBV and a 90/75FBV could make such a big difference. 

But I'm still interested in the pros and cons of pitching beside of moving the balance point. 

[stick9 890]

6 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

I changed from a N2900 with a SuperFeet insole and a neutral pitch, 13' radius and a 92/50FBV to a Supreme 180 with a very thin insole and the same runner. The profile didn't feel good anymore and I was feeling my weight too much towards my heels.  So I was trying a 11' radius +1 forward pitch with a 92/75FBV(which was OK for me with a stock 10' profile before). The pitch was feeling good but I couldn't turn or stop anymore because the edges were way too sharp. 

This was the point where I was opening this thread. Meanwhile I went via a 95/50FBV(too shallow) to a 90/75FBV which seems to be a good starting point to get used to the new setup. Didn't think That a change between a 92/75FBV and a 90/75FBV could make such a big difference. 

But I'm still interested in the pros and cons of pitching beside of moving the balance point. 

The difference between those two is fairly significant. Blackstone lists the 92/75 as a 9/16 while the 90/75 a 3/4.

I'd suggest tweaking only one thing at a time. The more variables you have in play the harder it is to track.

Your issue is due to the footbeds. Superfeet have a decent amount of heel left to them. Stock beds not have next to nothing.

[hockeydad3 51]

Going to 11`+1 forward feels good with the new skate, more stability and agility. I just had to adjust the FBV.

But why is the forward pitch leading to more stability for me? Anybody around here who knows about the theory of pitching?

[VegasHockey 1280]

36 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Going to 11`+1 forward feels good with the new skate, more stability and agility. I just had to adjust the FBV.

But why is the forward pitch leading to more stability for me? Anybody around here who knows about the theory of pitching?

There are way too many variables here. For example, you are changing skate models and insoles. You also haven't stated if the steel on both is new and unaltered. There is no control set for any of these inconsistencies so it's difficult for anyone to provide a scientific explanation that would be justifiable. This is why when you make changes you should only alter one item at a time and always maintain a control set. 

[hockeydad3 51]

1 hour ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

There are way too many variables here. For example, you are changing skate models and insoles. You also haven't stated if the steel on both is new and unaltered. There is no control set for any of these inconsistencies so it's difficult for anyone to provide a scientific explanation that would be justifiable. This is why when you make changes you should only alter one item at a time and always maintain a control set. 

Well. I´m reading a lot here in the forums. The LHS´s here around couldn´t help me with my pain in skates and insoles, only wanting to sell new skates especially true´s customs. My problem seems to be probably rarely. So i have to go the "try and error way". Changing skates and insoles did help me with my pain. But my old profile was a nogo on the new skates/insoles. I´m lucky that my modifikation seems to be better than the situation before. I just want to understand what happens and want to know if there could be negative sideeffects I have to pay attention for.

[VegasHockey 1280]

45 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Well. I´m reading a lot here in the forums. The LHS´s here around couldn´t help me with my pain in skates and insoles, only wanting to sell new skates especially true´s customs. My problem seems to be probably rarely. So i have to go the "try and error way". Changing skates and insoles did help me with my pain. But my old profile was a nogo on the new skates/insoles. I´m lucky that my modifikation seems to be better than the situation before. I just want to understand what happens and want to know if there could be negative sideeffects I have to pay attention for.

Let's start with what are your problems with your skates. What is causing you pain? 

[flip12 714]

2 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

There are way too many variables here. For example, you are changing skate models and insoles. You also haven't stated if the steel on both is new and unaltered. There is no control set for any of these inconsistencies so it's difficult for anyone to provide a scientific explanation that would be justifiable. This is why when you make changes you should only alter one item at a time and always maintain a control set. 

In his second post he mentioned the profile:

On 9/28/2019 at 6:59 PM, hockeydad3 said:

I changed from a N2900 with a SuperFeet insole and a neutral pitch, 13' radius and a 92/50FBV to a Supreme 180 with a very thin insole and the same runner. The profile didn't feel good anymore and I was feeling my weight too much towards my heels.  So I was trying a 11' radius +1 forward pitch with a 92/75FBV(which was OK for me with a stock 10' profile before). The pitch was feeling good but I couldn't turn or stop anymore because the edges were way too sharp. 

This was the point where I was opening this thread. Meanwhile I went via a 95/50FBV(too shallow) to a 90/75FBV which seems to be a good starting point to get used to the new setup. Didn't think That a change between a 92/75FBV and a 90/75FBV could make such a big difference. 

But I'm still interested in the pros and cons of pitching beside of moving the balance point. 

I thought he meant it was profiled to 13' when he still had N2900s and then swapped that runner into the holder on his Supreme 180s.

It sounds like @stick9 has nailed a significant factor: pitching +1 on Supremes with stock insoles bringing you closer to the effective pitch of the N2900s, which it sounded like you were happy with. So you lost some pitch going to Supremes without SuperFeet and pitching it +1 got you back towards what you were previously on.

19 hours ago, stick9 said:

The difference between those two is fairly significant. Blackstone lists the 92/75 as a 9/16 while the 90/75 a 3/4.

I'd suggest tweaking only one thing at a time. The more variables you have in play the harder it is to track.

Your issue is due to the footbeds. Superfeet have a decent amount of heel left to them. Stock beds not have next to nothing.

 

[hockeydad3 51]

23 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Let's start with what are your problems with your skates. What is causing you pain? 

Beeing on the ice and skating or standing during practice for more than about 10-15 min. gives me a very strong and burning pain on my whole footsole. Standing on skates and walking around at home on the carpet is ok. Playing hockey with two rows and shifting every two minutes is ok. Tying the skate loose in the midfoot area is helping but I´m missing the support of the skate. Using an insole without any archsupport helps. This was leading me to a tightfitting stiff boot and a very thin insole, best situation I ever had.

Edited September 29, 2019 by hockeydad3

[hockeydad3 51]

9 minutes ago, flip12 said:

I thought he meant it was profiled to 13' when he still had N2900s and then swapped that runner into the holder on his Supreme 180s.

That´s what i wanted to say.

 

9 minutes ago, flip12 said:

It sounds like @stick9 has nailed a significant factor: pitching +1 on Supremes with stock insoles bringing you closer to the effective pitch of the N2900s, which it sounded like you were happy with. So you lost some pitch going to Supremes without SuperFeet and pitching it +1 got you back towards what you were previously on.

The new profile on the S180 is even feeling better and more stable than before with the old one on the N2900. But I don´t know if my skatingstance is better or a bad habbit is better supported by the profile. Have to get used to the new setup and build some "muscle memmory".

[flip12 714]

1 hour ago, hockeydad3 said:

That´s what i wanted to say.

 

The new profile on the S180 is even feeling better and more stable than before with the old one on the N2900. But I don´t know if my skatingstance is better or a bad habbit is better supported by the profile. Have to get used to the new setup and build some "muscle memmory".

Here's where what @SkateWorksPNW and @stick9 has to be addressed, as there really are a lot of variables you've mentioned.

If your feet feel better in the Supremes than they did in the Nexus, you could be benefitting from that, unrelated to the pitch change.

When you had SuperFeet in your Nexus, did it feel better than the original insoles the skates came with but still not good enough, hence the switch to Supreme?

What kind of pain has gone away in the Supremes compared to your previous Nexus skates?

Supreme and Nexus are supposed to have a bit of a different approach to fit and feel. It could be you're benefitting from the skate family change. Maybe the material make-up of the S180 suits you better than the N2900. The S180 is the higher end skate of the two, right?

If you provide more details about the good and bad in the comparisons you're making, it'll be easier for the other active members in this thread, who are more knowledgeable than I am on these questions, to give you detailed answers.

[hockeydad3 51]

 

1 hour ago, flip12 said:

If you provide more details about the good and bad in the comparisons you're making, it'll be easier for the other active members in this thread, who are more knowledgeable than I am on these questions, to give you detailed answers.

The pain in the footsole is noticeable better. The fit and support of the Supremes is better, but there is no room for a thicker insole or a heellift because they have less volume than the Nexus. With the old profile I was feeling my weight being on my heels. The forwardpitch is better than the heellift. With the new one I´m feeling balanced, more agile and I have a better longitudenal stability even off-ice.

I was starting this thread because I couldn´t skate after getting the new profile, but this was due to the initial FBV beeing way too sharp.

But I just want to know more about the theory of pitching. Why is my weight on the heels? Do I have a bad skatingposition or is the standardbalancepoint not ideal for my physiognomy? Who needs a hegative or positive pitch, and why? Are there only positive effects, or could there be negative sideeffects?

Edited September 29, 2019 by hockeydad3

[Vet88 674]

39 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Why is my weight on the heels? Do I have a bad skatingposition or is the standardbalancepoint not ideal for my physiognomy? 

How is anyone going to be able to comment on this without seeing you skate?

You say they didn't hurt when you walked in them at home but did when you skate (in specific circumstances). These are 2 completely different scenarios, at home and standing still most people will supinate in the skate, they pull it more under their hip for balance and the foot muscles are doing very little work. However when skating this can turn into a pronation and the foot muscles are working overtime during the stride. How your general bio mechanics work are specific to you, it's something you could work out yourself but you have said in another thread you want something fast to get on the ice as opposed to working on it by dropping eyelets. I think your best solution is to find someone like a reputable figure skating coach who understands skating bio mechanics to look at you whilst you skate and figure out what may be wrong. Then you can go from there and address each point they raise to see if it makes things better for you.

[stick9 890]

Start with a skate that fits good. Then move to a footbed that enhances that fit. Once you nail that, you can dial in your profile and pitch if needed. The last thing I would tweak would be the hollow.

All of this is pretty much irrelevant if the boot doesn't fit properly. My gut tell me you aren't in a boot that fits your foot all that well.

Edited September 30, 2019 by stick9

[hockeydad3 51]

2 hours ago, stick9 said:

Start with a skate that fits good. Then move to a footbed that enhances that fit. Once you nail that, you can dial in your profile and pitch if needed. The last thing I would tweak would be the hollow.

All of this is pretty much irrelevant if the boot doesn't fit properly. My gut tell me you aren't in a boot that fits your foot all that well.

For me it´s the opposite. The Supreme 180 is the best fitting skate I ever had, after several bakings almost zero negative space and a good support. The insole is ok, with room for development. The +1 forward pitch is giving me the best longitudenal balance I ever had in skates.

For my physiognomy the optimal hollow seems to correlate with the profile radius: 10` = 92/75FBV(9/16ROH), 11` = 90/75FBV(3/4ROH) and 13`= 92/50FBV(~15/16ROH). It is now a good base to accomodate for some weeks to the new setup.

I only want to find out if I´m on the right way and understand what happened.