Is Shimming Necessary for A Pronated Skater and What Does It Do?

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

Can somebody inform me of shimming a skate for a pronated skater.  Does this improve balance or speed?  If this helps for when a skater pronates on the ice please let me know how to do it.

Thank you

Edited December 15, 2020 by Fiveholeonly3555148
Grammar and spelling

[VegasHockey 1280]

37 minutes ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

Can somebody inform me of shimming a skate for a pronated skater.  Does this improve balance or speed?  If this helps for when a skater pronates on the ice please let me know how to do it.

Thank you

Depends on how excessive the pronation is.

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

I would say over pronation and the fact that it’s a bone structure issue that’s not fixable through strengthening the foot.

[krisdrum 233]

Shimming helps with balance.  If you pronate, your foot collapses towards the inside edge.  That makes it much harder to get on the flat of the blade or outside edge because your weight naturally falls towards the center line of your body.  By putting a shim between the boot and holder you create a different angle between the boot and holder, which allows your foot to still pronate inward, but keep the blade neutral to the ice. 

Usually, you shim the opposite side of the problem.  Since you pronate inwards, you'll shim the outside half of the boot.  Usually just the heel post in my experience.  Once the shim is in place, if you look at it from the back and put the blade perpendicular to a flat surface, you'll see the boot is now tilted towards the inside edge while the holder and blade are straight up and down. 

You can shim inside the boot as well, but that can effect the fit of your boot and you'll also need a wedge of material, already cut to a specific angle to do so properly.  To shim the outside of the boot, it is much easier to fit proper materials, as it does not need to have an angle present.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JsxdiJGZyEfRUThT9

Edited December 15, 2020 by krisdrum

[BenBreeg 493]

As someone who has pronation, realize that shimming is addressing the problem at the symptom, not necessarily the source.  You can end up pronating on a skate as a result of things as far up as the hip or it could be knee valgus.  The biggest improvement I saw for pronation came from making sure I had the proper arch support (this won't fix the core problem but you don't want space under your arch to encourage rolling), unilateral leg exercises, and the biggest contributor was no/low laced skating during public skating.  It is eye-opening how much you learn and the feedback you get when the boot is not clamped onto your foot.

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

So shim both internally and externally.  Use a wedge and foot bed.  Correct?  I know Vet 88 had said what you told me Ben but I don’t think I have enough ice time every day to drop eyelets.  Also do you know where I can get this done.  I know figure skaters do blade alignment (which you can no longer do with hockey skates) so do they also know how to shim?  Midwest area here so Minnesota to Michigan kinda range any where in between there.

[krisdrum 233]

52 minutes ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

So shim both internally and externally.  Use a wedge and foot bed.  Correct?  I know Vet 88 had said what you told me Ben but I don’t think I have enough ice time every day to drop eyelets.  Also do you know where I can get this done.  I know figure skaters do blade alignment (which you can no longer do with hockey skates) so do they also know how to shim?  Midwest area here so Minnesota to Michigan kinda range any where in between there.

I would start external only.  Again, internal shims will change the fit of your boot, which for most people isn't ideal, assuming your boots fit you well. Wedge would be internal.  Footbeds to provide proper arch support would be internal and I agree, are a critical component as well to evaluate.  

I would think based on your location whoever the best independent hockey shops are in the area (I probably wouldn't go to the box stores) should be able to help evaluate the need and do the work.

For the shims I posted a pic of, that final setting was after 2 or 3 times back and forth to the shop and the rink.  Some adjustments based on just watching me walk in the shop, some based on how they felt while walking and some based on how the skates felt and performed on the ice.  There isn't an exact science to it, so it takes a bit of trial and error. 

If you are lucky enough to have holders that attach to the boot with t-nuts (like most Grafs) instead of rivets, then you can try doing the shims yourself.  I have another pair I recently shimmed myself.  But not many brands use t-nuts, so you'll likely have to take them to a shop to get them shimmed, unless you have a rivet press available to you.  

[BenBreeg 493]

2 hours ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

So shim both internally and externally.  Use a wedge and foot bed.  Correct?  I know Vet 88 had said what you told me Ben but I don’t think I have enough ice time every day to drop eyelets.  Also do you know where I can get this done.  I know figure skaters do blade alignment (which you can no longer do with hockey skates) so do they also know how to shim?  Midwest area here so Minnesota to Michigan kinda range any where in between there.

Honestly, I don't free skate much either, just if I take my son, but literally within one lap the first time I was finding out a whole bunch of things.  Even occasionally done I think it helps immensely, the feedback seems magnified.

[YesLanges 127]

I'd suggest that it depends on whether your pronation is a function of being a novice skater or a function of anatomy in a more advanced/competent skater. If it's the former, a shim won't help; if it's the latter, it might.

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

I’m am an experienced skater and am not new.  So just to touch up this helps with balance?  Anything else?  I though it changes the angle at which it contacts the ice so that creates more efficiency compared to you when pronating.  I should get this since I pronate because it’s gonna help me skate and balance better correct?  Lastly, it is trial and error for the shim and that goes on the outside on the back only opposite of the problem right?   My biggest thing is, is this essential for over pronated skaters?

Edited December 16, 2020 by Fiveholeonly3555148

[krisdrum 233]

48 minutes ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

I’m am an experienced skater and am not new.  So just to touch up this helps with balance?  Anything else?  I though it changes the angle at which it contacts the ice so that creates more efficiency compared to you when pronating.  I should get this since I pronate because it’s gonna help me skate and balance better correct?  Lastly, it is trial and error for the shim and that goes on the outside on the back only opposite of the problem right?   My biggest thing is, is this essential for over pronated skaters?

Ok, so if experienced, have you always pronated?  Or is this a new thing?  Do you have trouble with certain edge work?  What made you investigate this issue now?

My understanding of why you want to shim for pronation is because it helps you properly balance on the blade by shifting your natural balance point to be more neutral.  By pronating, your natural balance point moves towards the center line of your body.  That makes you fall onto your inside edge more easily, which can be an issue if you can't control.  Besides shims, I've also seen people recommend re-aligning your holders to fix this problem.  This is possible on hockey skates by elongating the rivet mounting holes in the holder and moving the holder on the boot in the direction needed.  For pronation, you would move the holder towards your inside edge.  I did not choose this method as I did not want to effect the integrity of my holder.  But it is an option.   

Not sure what you mean by "more efficiency".  If you mean your body has to work harder to balance flat/neutral on your blades when you pronate, then yes, I think adding a shim will make you more efficient.

Just speaking from my own experience with adding shims - yes, it was trial and error.  The shim I pictured ended up at that thickness and positioning after a few trips back and forth to the shop. 

I believe there are several common approaches to how to shim, but yes, from my research and experience, the shim goes under your heel only and is placed on the side opposite to the direction your foot is naturally falling.  The shim in the picture is on the outside edge side of my holder because I fall towards my inside edge. 

For me, shims have made a big difference.  I have them on all my skates.  I just converted a boot to inline and added shims. 

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

I feel like I get more tired easily because when you stride your pushing from the (pronated) inside of the foot making you expend more energy.  So I would be tired and get knocked off balance easily because of the weight over the center.  I have played many sports and am very athletic although not like buff but fast.  So I just wanted to clean this problem up as I think it is hampering my game.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Fiveholeonly3555148

[krisdrum 233]

1 hour ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

I felt kinda that my success and improvement was getting more little and little.  I’ve made A teams my whole life and played tournaments with other teams.  The only team I haven’t made is a triple A team.  I am not the best but on my teams I would say I’m always on the upper end or middle of the pack.  I feel like I get more tired easily because when you stride your pushing from the (pronated) inside of the foot making you expend more energy.  So I would be tired and get knocked off balance easily because of the weight over the center.  I have played many sports and am very athletic although not like buff but fast.  So I just wanted to clean this problem up as I think it is hampering my game.

And who identified pronation as a problem for you?  If you haven't already, sounds like you need to go talk to a reputable "skills" coach and get your skating evaluated.  What you just described does not sound like a pronation issue to me.  Sounds like a technique and maybe a conditioning issue. 

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

No it’s over pronation and is anatomical not my stride technique.  Also I have gone to the doctor or whatever it is for feet and they said I had flat feet/over pronation and that is why I have an orthodic in real life.  Also I can physically see my foot over pronates.  On the other hand I condition for sports so I’m sorry I got that in there because it may have confused you I just want to get shims if they are necessary and based on what I have researched they are.

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

http://www.ellismethod.net/ankle-pronation-effects-in-skating.html

This is why it thought pronation effected your stride maybe I’m wrong.  Besides you have it on all your skates.  If it helps balance only I would still be willing and wanting to get shims.

[krisdrum 233]

16 minutes ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

http://www.ellismethod.net/ankle-pronation-effects-in-skating.html

This is why it thought pronation effected your stride maybe I’m wrong.  Besides you have it on all your skates.  If it helps balance only I would still be willing and wanting to get shims.

So have you tried the method she recommends?  Flip-flop foam arch support?  If you want to try shims, try them.  They aren't permanent and if you don't see a benefit, they are easily removed and your holders re-riveted. 

And yes, it has helped me.  I hope they or some other solution helps you. 

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

I use a footbed with an arch but it seems like we’re getting off topic and I just wanted to clarify on getting shims and then how to do them I’m pretty sure I need them and like you said if I don’t like them I can take them out.  Sorry to bug you on all these messages so if you could just kinda say the process and steps.  Also it helps your balance and your balance only?  Outside from me being tired that was not meant to be the problem with me falling off balance.  Thank you for your time this conversation may go on longer but thanks for what you have done so far.

[krisdrum 233]

1 hour ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

I use a footbed with an arch but it seems like we’re getting off topic and I just wanted to clarify on getting shims and then how to do them I’m pretty sure I need them and like you said if I don’t like them I can take them out.  Sorry to bug you on all these messages so if you could just kinda say the process and steps.  Also it helps your balance and your balance only?  Outside from me being tired that was not meant to be the problem with me falling off balance.  Thank you for your time this conversation may go on longer but thanks for what you have done so far.

Process - go to a local skate shop you trust and talk to them about what you think you need and whether they can help you.  If they are a shop with good, knowledgeable staff, they should be able to get you set up with shims. 

[Vet88 674]

5 hours ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

http://www.ellismethod.net/ankle-pronation-effects-in-skating.html

This is why it thought pronation effected your stride maybe I’m wrong.  Besides you have it on all your skates.  If it helps balance only I would still be willing and wanting to get shims.

Pronation effects your stride, balance, power you get into the ice, technique etc. In fact everything you do on the ice is impacted by pronation. If you are not aligned correctly over the top of the skate blade you will never EVER skate to your full potential. I don't care how much you train, your fundamental technique will always be flawed.

There are lots of articles you will find on the web re pronation in skates, this is a good one

http://bladesbytodd.com/2015/08/09/mounts/

or this for what a trained person can do to correct foot issues and pronation

https://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

 

If you can't put the time in to train laces untied (which I find surprising if you are playing AA?, I am sure I read this in one of your posts) then you are left with a physical process (shims etc).

imho a LHS is the last place you want to go to see someone about pronation (no disrespect intended for those knowledgeable owners on this forum) because it's a crap shoot, 99.9% will not have a clue about what you want. If you want to work with a skate related person I think you are better off finding a very good figure skate coach or figure skate fitter, they have dealt with this all the time whereas hockey just pretends it doesn't exist.

Or go and see a professional, I'd suggest you find one of these people in your area and go and see them - http://www.aapsm.org/members-midwest.html#mn

At least you recognise pronation has an impact on your skating and you want to do something about it. Training more, without fixing the problem, ISN'T the solution.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Vet88

[VegasHockey 1280]

If you dont have time for laces untied practicing I would recommend trying to drop the top 3 or 4 eyelets when you practice. It will be a struggle at first but over time you'll build up your balance and muscle and pretty soon won't even care about lacing your skates super tight. 

[Venom1 1]

Interested in this topic as well. 

 

I have an 11 year old that we just realized has the same issue. We had the HS Athletic trainer look at his feet and recommend stiff arch support (superfeet).

The Trainer ended up modifying his speed plate footbed with those orthotic wedges under the inside of his heel and just behind the ball of his front foot. 

He also has exercises that he does to try and strengthen the interior muscles, and stretch out his achilles. We were told that at his age there's a chance to correct the issue and we're hoping to accomplish that, but we know it won't be a quick fix. 

 

I just wanted to offer my support because I know how frustrated you must be. You can be the strongest and most well-conditioned athlete on the team, but if your legs are fried after three shifts because you're constantly riding both inside edges, the rest of the game can feel like you're skating through mud. 

 

 

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

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Edited December 20, 2020 by Fiveholeonly3555148

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

On 12/16/2020 at 7:54 PM, Vet88 said:

Pronation effects your stride, balance, power you get into the ice, technique etc. In fact everything you do on the ice is impacted by pronation. If you are not aligned correctly over the top of the skate blade you will never EVER skate to your full potential. I don't care how much you train, your fundamental technique will always be flawed.

There are lots of articles you will find on the web re pronation in skates, this is a good one

http://bladesbytodd.com/2015/08/09/mounts/

or this for what a trained person can do to correct foot issues and pronation

https://www.aapsm.org/pdf/humble-skatinga.pdf

 

If you can't put the time in to train laces untied (which I find surprising if you are playing AA?, I am sure I read this in one of your posts) then you are left with a physical process (shims etc).

imho a LHS is the last place you want to go to see someone about pronation (no disrespect intended for those knowledgeable owners on this forum) because it's a crap shoot, 99.9% will not have a clue about what you want. If you want to work with a skate related person I think you are better off finding a very good figure skate coach or figure skate fitter, they have dealt with this all the time whereas hockey just pretends it doesn't exist.

Or go and see a professional, I'd suggest you find one of these people in your area and go and see them - http://www.aapsm.org/members-midwest.html#mn

At least you recognise pronation has an impact on your skating and you want to do something about it. Training more, without fixing the problem, ISN'T the solution.

Vet 88 when you talk about contacting a professional that specializes in feet do they know how to shim?  I thought those people were from aapsm which talk in that article about how to shim or resolve pronation?  Also when I clicked on the link it sent me to a guy in Minnesota.  Would that be the person best to call first who knows the most information.  I would like to shoot them a call or anyone for my matter to advance further in solving this problem.

[Vet88 674]

55 minutes ago, Fiveholeonly3555148 said:

do they know how to shim?  

There is no guarantee that anyone you speak to has a lot of experience in shimming. What you need to do is ask them if they have any experience in dealing with hockey players and if the skate needs adjustment, who would they use. However a professional that deals with feet should be aware of the basics and be able to apply this to ice skates but I'd still be trying to find someone who has that experience.

As to the link (and re my comment above) I suspect the page lands there because that particular person is paying for the privilege. As I said above, I'd start at the top of the list and ring every single one. Tell them you are a hockey player who is looking for help and what experience do they have in dealing with feet in skates. If they don't have any experience they might refer you to someone they know who does.

[Fiveholeonly3555148 0]

I have been calling people and people either seem to not know or be mixed up about solving the problem for pronation.  I spoke with the guy who wrote the article for aapsm skating alignment and he said if it’s minor pronation you move the blade and get a custom orthotic.  When my dad and I were talking to him he mentioned minor but, believe me I have taken pictures and it seems more moderate or severe.  Probably not severe or I wouldn’t be at the level I am considering it’s harder to skate with pronation.  So I don’t know why but it just irritates the _ out of me for why he thinks that my problem is only minor and a orthotic will fix it on its which I already have had done and does not make a huge difference.  So to get him to configure getting something done ASAP because it is always seemed to be denied and held off saying I need to move my feet and drop my butt, is shimming the best option plus internally an orthotic to also help it from the inside as you cannot move the blade.  Also I do move my feet my coach last year would yell at us for everything so I was forced to skate 110% full speed.  To be honest I almost hung up the skates but that was a short thought as I knew something was wrong and besides that I wanted to keep on working harder.  I will keep reaching out but should I shim like it’s the bigger priority that will make a huge difference in alignment over the blade.  I have found a place in Windsor, Canada that says they shim but we already bought skates at the beginning of the year (hockey season) and right now Canada is on lockdown from movement across its borders from other countries.  It just makes me mad because I work so hard (still am and will be) and I know that this will help me (a lot at least from what I researched because my dad says it won’t do me a miracle.  I know it won’t but I am sufficient in every part of make game besides the parts where pronation effects it) so I really want to get this done with out him rambling making excuses while I have been trying to solve this problem for so long.