Narrowest blade holder geometry?

[LFGR 0]

I'm looking to remount the blade holders on my Supremes to combat some biomechanical issues, but there's not a lot of real estate left on the boot's outsole to move the stock Tuuk LS Edge holders. Do any other brand's holders have a narrower vertical part, thus making it easier to move the holder over and still get screws/rivets in? CCM? True?

[boo10 323]

I think the True Shift holder is the narrowest, (also symmetrical).

Edit: holder is symmetrical.

Edited July 28, 2022 by boo10

[LFGR 0]

Thanks! What do you mean by asymmetrical? Just that the stock holes don't line up with each other? Is it anything that would prevent me from mounting them on some Supremes?

[boo10 323]

12 minutes ago, LFGR said:

Thanks! What do you mean by asymmetrical? Just that the stock holes don't line up with each other? Is it anything that would prevent me from mounting them on some Supremes?

There is no left and right, just a single holder shape that fits either side.

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

It’s symmetrical then, no?

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

Depending on what you’re trying to accomplish, you could also compare the mounting holes on one size larger or smaller holder. 

[boo10 323]

2 hours ago, Buzz_LightBeer said:

It’s symmetrical then, no?

LOL, you are correct.  I did not even read my own post and missed my typo (twice).  With observation skills like that, I should put away my stick and put on the zebra sweater!

[krisdrum 233]

14 hours ago, LFGR said:

I'm looking to remount the blade holders on my Supremes to combat some biomechanical issues, but there's not a lot of real estate left on the boot's outsole to move the stock Tuuk LS Edge holders. Do any other brand's holders have a narrower vertical part, thus making it easier to move the holder over and still get screws/rivets in? CCM? True?

Can you shim the holders to get the desired effect?  Or is moving the holder the only viable option?  Just making sure you've thought through all your options before drilling new holes.

[caveman27 208]

You want the center line of the blade (shows as Fn below) to be shifted to the left or right? I don't know if that's what you want to do without testing it. Maybe orthotic sole/custom footbed might fix your problem.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by caveman27

[LFGR 0]

Thanks @krisdrum and @caveman27 for the helpful suggestions!

A little more background: I am knock kneed, I have poor forward ankle dorsiflexion, and I overpronate (i.e. I'm duckfooted). I played D2 ACHA and run pretty fast marathons, but there are some things I'd like to clean up about my skating (mostly the ability to more naturally use my outside edges). I have heavily modified my ski boots and bindings with lots of success. I also have dabbled with inline speedskating, where blade realignment is something almost everyone does. I have a 3D printer and am pretty handy with tools.

I have my old CCM RBZ skates that I'm using as test mules before I take the drill to my new Supremes. So far I have:

- Put in 6mm heel lift shims, and it has helped quite a bit to combat the poor dorsiflexion.

- Tried Currex high and medium insoles (used to be sold as CCM) but they seem to make the edging problem worse. 

- Tried a million different lacing patterns.

Soon I plan to try:

- Wedge shims to change the lateral angle of the blade.

- Realigning the blade by moving the front more under my big toe.

Both of these last two things helped a lot with the inline speed skates. When I went back to my stock hockey skates, I felt terrible in comparison. Sounds like some True holders will allow me to more easily try some of these things.

[krisdrum 233]

12 hours ago, LFGR said:

Thanks @krisdrum and @caveman27 for the helpful suggestions!

A little more background: I am knock kneed, I have poor forward ankle dorsiflexion, and I overpronate (i.e. I'm duckfooted). I played D2 ACHA and run pretty fast marathons, but there are some things I'd like to clean up about my skating (mostly the ability to more naturally use my outside edges). I have heavily modified my ski boots and bindings with lots of success. I also have dabbled with inline speedskating, where blade realignment is something almost everyone does. I have a 3D printer and am pretty handy with tools.

I have my old CCM RBZ skates that I'm using as test mules before I take the drill to my new Supremes. So far I have:

- Put in 6mm heel lift shims, and it has helped quite a bit to combat the poor dorsiflexion.

- Tried Currex high and medium insoles (used to be sold as CCM) but they seem to make the edging problem worse. 

- Tried a million different lacing patterns.

Soon I plan to try:

- Wedge shims to change the lateral angle of the blade.

- Realigning the blade by moving the front more under my big toe.

Both of these last two things helped a lot with the inline speed skates. When I went back to my stock hockey skates, I felt terrible in comparison. Sounds like some True holders will allow me to more easily try some of these things.

I had good success some years back with what you are calling "wedge shims".  I was in a softer boot and my feet naturally pronate (arches fall, internal rotation of the foot, wear the inner heel of my shoes more quickly).  The combination of soft boot and biomechanics made it less natural to get on my outside edges.  My LHS shimmed the back post of my holders on both skates.  The shim took up only the external half of the mounting area (from centerline to outside of heel) and was placed between my boot and holder, held in place by the rivets.  With a bit of experimentation, we got to a place where I was much more neutral on my blades.  I've also at times experimented with heel shims inside my boots.  These are common in the sport of cycling to correct biomechanics against a fixed pedal surface.  There are a lot of similarities from that perspective.  Both approaches had similar result to re-mounting the blades further to the inside of each foot, but no extra holes needed to be drilled.  I've found for the most part, people typically do not move the holder position in hockey (like they do in speed or figure), but instead shim to adjust the natural balance point.

I've found a stiffer form fitting boot (True TF9) reduces my pronation and need to shim.  That could just be correlational, since I am now skating way more than I was back when I had shims and have built up a lot more strength in all those little muscles, but there could be something to it. 

[LFGR 0]

Thanks @krisdrum for the thoughtful response. Sounds like we have similar issues. I grew up in Jersey, but now I live 2+ hours from any hockey shops, so the DIY help is much appreciated.

I'm surprised to hear that they shimmed the rear post of your skates only. I'd think that would put weird torsional stress on the holder, twisting it and eventually making the blade loose. Do you know why they didn't do the front too? Did this cause any structural issues?

I use the in-boot shims like you describe in my cycling shoes (and my ski boots) to great success, where like you said, the foot is pushing against a fixed flat surface; it brings my joints into alignment. But in my skates -- where the blade can pivot freely on the ground -- it feels like building up the medial side just rotates that outside edge further from the ice surface. Hence, the reason to shim the holder on the lateral (outside) half.

Regarding remounting blades vs shimming, maybe I need a better understanding. It seems like they combat two different parts of the problem. Shimming seems like it helps bring the blade more perpendicular to the ice, so you have equal ease of using either edge. Remounting seems like it would be the better way to truly locate the blade under the natural balance point. (As for why this isn't done as much in hockey, I assume it's because hockey players are curmudgeons who won't buy anything non-traditional, and skates that easily allow this won't sell; it's not a matter of it being ineffective.)

[krisdrum 233]

54 minutes ago, LFGR said:

Thanks @krisdrum for the thoughtful response. Sounds like we have similar issues. I grew up in Jersey, but now I live 2+ hours from any hockey shops, so the DIY help is much appreciated.

I'm surprised to hear that they shimmed the rear post of your skates only. I'd think that would put weird torsional stress on the holder, twisting it and eventually making the blade loose. Do you know why they didn't do the front too? Did this cause any structural issues?

I use the in-boot shims like you describe in my cycling shoes (and my ski boots) to great success, where like you said, the foot is pushing against a fixed flat surface; it brings my joints into alignment. But in my skates -- where the blade can pivot freely on the ground -- it feels like building up the medial side just rotates that outside edge further from the ice surface. Hence, the reason to shim the holder on the lateral (outside) half.

Regarding remounting blades vs shimming, maybe I need a better understanding. It seems like they combat two different parts of the problem. Shimming seems like it helps bring the blade more perpendicular to the ice, so you have equal ease of using either edge. Remounting seems like it would be the better way to truly locate the blade under the natural balance point. (As for why this isn't done as much in hockey, I assume it's because hockey players are curmudgeons who won't buy anything non-traditional, and skates that easily allow this won't sell; it's not a matter of it being ineffective.)

My understanding for the rear post only, is the pronation is coming from the heel/ankle area.  Canting that area will cause the rest of the foot to follow.  It does slightly twist the holder, but nothing that would cause damage.  We are literally talking about maybe 2-3mm. 

Ok, so you've tried in-boot shims in your ice skates?  Obviously you've done it with other footwear with success.  Odd that canting the medial side makes you feel like the outside edge is further away from the ice, as it should compensate for the "fall" in your heel and shift your weight more to the outside.  If shimming the outside of the boot (between boot and holder) you shim the lateral side. 

My understanding is shimming and remounting effectively do the same thing - shift your balance point so it is more centered over the blade. 

The MLX skates had move-able holders laterally, similar to figure skates, but believe they were bought by Easton and became the prototype for the Mako skates, but that design feature was discontinued. 

[Vet88 674]

On 7/30/2022 at 1:49 AM, LFGR said:

Regarding remounting blades vs shimming, maybe I need a better understanding. It seems like they combat two different parts of the problem. Shimming seems like it helps bring the blade more perpendicular to the ice, so you have equal ease of using either edge. Remounting seems like it would be the better way to truly locate the blade under the natural balance point. (As for why this isn't done as much in hockey, I assume it's because hockey players are curmudgeons who won't buy anything non-traditional, and skates that easily allow this won't sell; it's not a matter of it being ineffective.)

Shimming is more common for hockey because of the boot and holder design, there isn't the space on the sole to move the holder significantly. Shimming moves the holder under the foot by creating an offset, the blade leans inwards so that the contact point with the ice is moved inwards from the center line of the foot. The part I don't like about shimiing is it offsets the blade onto a slant and this forever screws with your edges. Moving the holder achieves the same result without putting the blade on an incline. However I personally disagree with either. They do work but, and it's a HUGE but.... Shimming and or holder movement will help to correct your pronation but only for a straight line glide. As soon as you get deep onto an edge or exert forces onto the edge, your pronation WILL happen, it happens because you have done nothing about your bio mechanical issues, they are still there just waiting to happen. Unless you take specific steps to address your pronation, the only thing that really helps for skaters is to buy the stiffest best fitting skate you can possibly afford and lace it up as tight as you can. The boot now helps to hold the ankle straight (it's actually the heel bone you are trying to hold straight) but what you have to realise is your foot is still trying to pronate in the boot. This causes the foot to constantly lever against the inside rear quarter of the skate and this leads to a rapid breakdown of the boot. If you understand this and are prepared to buy new boots on a very regular basis then this is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with pronation (eg PK Suban goes thru skates every 6 weeks or so).

Or you fix your pronation with on and off ice exercises and muscle training, here is my post on this - 

 

[LFGR 0]

9 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Shimming is more common for hockey because of the boot and holder design, there isn't the space on the sole to move the holder significantly. Shimming moves the holder under the foot by creating an offset, the blade leans inwards so that the contact point with the ice is moved inwards from the center line of the foot. The part I don't like about shimiing is it offsets the blade onto a slant and this forever screws with your edges. Moving the holder achieves the same result without putting the blade on an incline. However I personally disagree with either. They do work but, and it's a HUGE but.... Shimming and or holder movement will help to correct your pronation but only for a straight line glide. As soon as you get deep onto an edge or exert forces onto the edge, your pronation WILL happen, it happens because you have done nothing about your bio mechanical issues, they are still there just waiting to happen. Unless you take specific steps to address your pronation, the only thing that really helps for skaters is to buy the stiffest best fitting skate you can possibly afford and lace it up as tight as you can. The boot now helps to hold the ankle straight (it's actually the heel bone you are trying to hold straight) but what you have to realise is your foot is still trying to pronate in the boot. This causes the foot to constantly lever against the inside rear quarter of the skate and this leads to a rapid breakdown of the boot. If you understand this and are prepared to buy new boots on a very regular basis then this is a perfectly acceptable way of dealing with pronation (eg PK Suban goes thru skates every 6 weeks or so).

Or you fix your pronation with on and off ice exercises and muscle training, here is my post on this - 

 

Wow @Vet88 that is the thread I've been looking for my whole life, haha. Thank you for sharing it, and for your comments here.

You're absolutely right about the best solution being to fix the body's alignment issues. As a competitive runner, I've been trying to address them for a while anyway, though I've never done the particular exercise from that video. I'll give it a shot. Like you said, the towel scrunching exercise didn't change anything for me. And insoles only seem to make things worse.

All that said, I'm still going to try moving my blades. If for nothing else, to experience the sensation of being over the blades instead of being to the medial side of them. I agree with your point about how shimming adds an unwanted angle to the blade that moving the holder does not. I still might try shimming my right blade, because I'm extra knock-kneed on that side. I've never been able to do an outside-edge one-legged stop on the right foot. I'm curious if "cheating" the blade a little further over on edge would help.

Thanks again for chiming in. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.

[LFGR 0]

@Vet88 There's one thing you said in the other thread that's been running thru my head for years: "We want the ankle to be able to flex forward and back, just not side to side in uncontrolled motions." This absolute truth makes me dumbfounded at modern hockey skate design.

It seems like the only way to achieve this forward/back motion with modern hockey skates is to leave the top of the boot looser (or skip lace eyelets altogether). This works decently enough for a while with high-end stiffer skates -- which will still provide a degree of lateral stiffness (until they break down) -- but it's not really an option for softer skates that need to be laced up tightly if you want any lateral stiffness. 

The same need exists with ski boots, and so they (sensibly!) have a separate lower and cuff, held together by a big burly rivet. Both parts can be tightened snugly, while still allowing that necessary fore/aft flexion. I know that Lange and Bauer Turbos have tried this but it never caught on. Bauer's new goalie skates do this. I've been told that the skate companies know that this would be superior for player skates too, but that the marketing teams say no way, that hockey consumers are too traditionalist. Do you think we'll ever see someone buck the trend and make a high-end player skate with a pivoting cuff?

[Vet88 674]

20 hours ago, LFGR said:

I've never been able to do an outside-edge one-legged stop on the right foot. I'm curious if "cheating" the blade a little further over on edge would help.

Thanks again for chiming in. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.

Over the last 5 years or so I've tried everything known to deal with pronation and historical injuries / surgery (achilles tendon) of the right ankle that caused hyper mobility. This is what I have tried - external shimming, internal posting, internal wedging, holder movement (grafs which secured the NT3000 / 5000 holders with screws were really good for this), custom orthotics (what a waste of money), lateral modification of the boot (clamp the inner quarter inwards to force the heel to the outside of the center line), pronation specific exercises, 4 years of laces undone skating and since last year the ankle straighten drill. Nothing even comes close to the impact the ankle straighten drill has made, it has fixed my pronation on ice and almost totally eliminated the hyper mobility I have in the right ankle. 

Your mileage may vary for the results of holder movement but I repeat my earlier experience doing this, it helps for a straight line glide but as soon as you try to get on an edge your problems come back. So imho you will get some limited success to improve your stopping on an outside edge but not by much.

[Vet88 674]

20 hours ago, LFGR said:

Do you think we'll ever see someone buck the trend and make a high-end player skate with a pivoting cuff?

We have seen some limited attempts to do this with advanced materials, Graf and Reebok have embedded forward flexing zones into the boot. I hope we see more research and advancement into this especially when the manufacturers finally to move to fully 3D printed boots.

[LFGR 0]

This has all been super helpful. Thanks so much.

After some more research, I got a pair of Easton Mako II's. Walking around they feel great. I also got some True Shift holders/runners with the hope of mounting them further to the medial side than stock. But I also notice that they are ~6mm taller than the stock Mako holders. So, question:

What effect does the taller holder have on skating when you're an over-pronator? @Vet88 thoughts?

Adding a 6mm heel lift to my CCM skates helped a lot, and I plan to do that to the new skates. But yikes, if I'm already gonna be 6mm higher anyway... Maybe I should try to make the stock Easton holders work.

Edited August 6, 2022 by LFGR

[Vet88 674]

3 hours ago, LFGR said:

What effect does the taller holder have on skating when you're an over-pronator? @Vet88 thoughts?

It can only make the pronation worse. The extra leverage of the taller holder and or taller steel exerts additional forces on the bottom of the boot. I suffered this a few years ago, changed out some well worn blacksteel for new blacksteel and it screwed me over for months.