Profile: Quad 2, too much pitch, how much to remove?

[Radien55 5]

I have been skating on Quad 2 (280mm runners) for the last month, and while I like the profile, it has a lot of forward pitch, much more than Zuperior M, which I find has a good amount of pitch. The Quad 2 feels a bit extreme due to this. It is immediately noticeable as soon as you take off your skate guards, you feel like you are standing on a hill. I do like being forward pitched, but this is just a little too much.

Q1: Does anyone know how much mm/degrees of pitch you should remove to make them feel more like Zuperior?

Q2: Would a Quad 1 be less pitched forward on 280mm runners or about the same?

[puckpilot 312]

Pitch and profile are two different things. Unless specified, I'd imagine the shop gave you a neutral pitch, well, unless they pitched the profile without you knowing. Assuming, you're on a neutral pitch, you may naturally balance yourself forward on you toes more than you're supposed to. The super smaller radii on the forward section of the profile makes it super easy to rock forward and get up on your toes, which is by design.

Because I have super small feet, I used to have issues with getting onto my toes too much. I went to a 13/26 profile with a negative 1 pitch. After a bunch of years on that and lots of practise, I was able to corrected my issues and went to a 13" neutral pitch.

[pgeorgan 86]

7 hours ago, Radien55 said:

I have been skating on Quad 2 (280mm runners) for the last month, and while I like the profile, it has a lot of forward pitch, much more than Zuperior M, which I find has a good amount of pitch. The Quad 2 feels a bit extreme due to this. It is immediately noticeable as soon as you take off your skate guards, you feel like you are standing on a hill. I do like being forward pitched, but this is just a little too much.

Q1: Does anyone know how much mm/degrees of pitch you should remove to make them feel more like Zuperior?

Q2: Would a Quad 1 be less pitched forward on 280mm runners or about the same?

ProSharp Profile Template List

[pgeorgan 86]

6 hours ago, puckpilot said:

Pitch and profile are two different things. Unless specified, I'd imagine the shop gave you a neutral pitch, well, unless they pitched the profile without you knowing. Assuming, you're on a neutral pitch, you may naturally balance yourself forward on you toes more than you're supposed to. The super smaller radii on the forward section of the profile makes it super easy to rock forward and get up on your toes, which is by design.

Because I have super small feet, I used to have issues with getting onto my toes too much. I went to a 13/26 profile with a negative 1 pitch. After a bunch of years on that and lots of practise, I was able to corrected my issues and went to a 13" neutral pitch.

I believe the Quad 2 has minus 20mm pitch built in to the template, unless you expressly request to have them adjust it (which I mistakenly did once, with very detrimental consequences to my knee long-term until It was fixed).

Edited March 18, 2024 by pgeorgan

[puckpilot 312]

3 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

I believe the Quad 2 has minus 20mm pitch built in to the template, unless you expressly request to have them adjust it (which I mistakenly did once, with very detrimental consequences to my knee long-term until It was fixed).

Where did you get that template? Everything I've seen, even stuff from official prosharp sources, never mentions this. Thanks for sharing. 

[Radien55 5]

3 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

I believe the Quad 2 has minus 20mm pitch built in to the template, unless you expressly request to have them adjust it (which I mistakenly did once, with very detrimental consequences to my knee long-term until It was fixed).

Yes correct!

I had both the Zuperior and Quad profiled with the built in pitch, which is stated as -20mm pivot point. Skating on them however, the Quad is significantly more forward pitched. When you lay the quad on top of the Zuperior , you can even tell with your eyes that it is much more aggressively pitched.

How did you adjust pitch and what were the detrimental consequences?

[pgeorgan 86]

1 hour ago, puckpilot said:

Where did you get that template? Everything I've seen, even stuff from official prosharp sources, never mentions this. Thanks for sharing. 

What template? You mean the list? Scroll up, I linked it in one of my posts. It's direct from ProSharp. 

[pgeorgan 86]

32 minutes ago, Radien55 said:

Yes correct!

I had both the Zuperior and Quad profiled with the built in pitch, which is stated as -20mm pivot point. Skating on them however, the Quad is significantly more forward pitched. When you lay the quad on top of the Zuperior , you can even tell with your eyes that it is much more aggressively pitched.

How did you adjust pitch and what were the detrimental consequences?

I asked for extra forward pitch because I had never actually skated on a ProSharp profile and that's how I'd always do my goalie skates (though this was for player skates). If you have too much forward pitch, it shifts your center of mass from its proper alignment, to your knees. I ended up having some swelling of the knee sack, called synovial plica syndrome, which I needed an MRI to diagnose. It went on for months before I went to get the MRI (during covid). Once I got the diagnosis, I went and had the default quad put back on new steel, and the swelling went away practically overnight. 

It really forces you to bend your knees to compensate. The other symptoms you'll recognize are sore butt and sore lower back. All telltale signs that your body isn't aligned properly over your feet. 

Edited March 18, 2024 by pgeorgan

[Radien55 5]

56 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I asked for extra forward pitch because I had never actually skated on a ProSharp profile and that's how I'd always do my goalie skates (though this was for player skates). If you have too much forward pitch, it shifts your center of mass from its proper alignment, to your knees. I ended up having some swelling of the knee sack, called synovial plica syndrome, which I needed an MRI to diagnose. It went on for months before I went to get the MRI (during covid). Once I got the diagnosis, I went and had the default quad put back on new steel, and the swelling went away practically overnight. 

It really forces you to bend your knees to compensate. The other symptoms you'll recognize are sore butt and sore lower back. All telltale signs that your body isn't aligned properly over your feet. 

Ouch! That must have been a crazy amount of pitch, poor knees. I'm glad you were able to fix it. Sometimes we really create our own suffering. I remember playing in skates that had a lot of forward pitch and my lower back would be very tired after games. I thought it was normal until I changed skates and it went away, turns out it was the pitch of the boot causing it the whole time.

[VegasHockey 1284]

Removing pitch is easy. Any decent pro shop should know how to remove pitch from a template. I typically do not add ANY pitch unless a customer requests it.

With a profile with an aggressive toe, the steel will already feel pitched since you will in fact be more on your toe as there is less material. 

 

[BenBreeg 495]

Quick clarification.  In the chart, does -20mm mean the pivot point is moved back 20mm which would translate to forward pitch?

[Paluce 26]

Quad 1 would feel pitch even more pitched forward if profiled on a prosharp, with the same pivot point.  Since the 1 is designed for a smaller blade the 6’ toe would extend over a greater length at the toe of the blade, removing more steel and feeling more pitched.  
 

If someone happens to have a set of OMNI quad profile bars for a Blackstone you can change that pitch on a Quad 2 without moving the pivot point, and changing the pitch by a certain amount of degree and making the difference steel height between the toe and the heal much less.  I think this is what you are looking for.   It’s pretty simple to do.

[puckpilot 312]

NVM. Misread something. 

Edited March 20, 2024 by puckpilot

[Radien55 5]

On 3/19/2024 at 1:57 AM, VegasHockey said:

Removing pitch is easy. Any decent pro shop should know how to remove pitch from a template. I typically do not add ANY pitch unless a customer requests it.

With a profile with an aggressive toe, the steel will already feel pitched since you will in fact be more on your toe as there is less material. 

 

Yes it must be the aggressive toe causing it, because they both have -20mm pivot points.

How many millimeters would you remove from the pivot point of the Quad to make it feel more like Zuperior in terms of pitch?

[Radien55 5]

17 hours ago, Paluce said:

Quad 1 would feel pitch even more pitched forward if profiled on a prosharp, with the same pivot point.  Since the 1 is designed for a smaller blade the 6’ toe would extend over a greater length at the toe of the blade, removing more steel and feeling more pitched.  
 

If someone happens to have a set of OMNI quad profile bars for a Blackstone you can change that pitch on a Quad 2 without moving the pivot point, and changing the pitch by a certain amount of degree and making the difference steel height between the toe and the heal much less.  I think this is what you are looking for.   It’s pretty simple to do.

Yes that makes a lot of sense! I would lose more steel and be even more pitched. The Quad 2 already took off a lot of steel compared to a Zuperior profile and I don't want to remove more. I do like the quad, just feel the pitch is a bit much. Thank you for explaining.

I have not heard of OMNI profiles or Blackstone, most shops here only have Prosharp machines and templates.

[Radien55 5]

18 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Quick clarification.  In the chart, does -20mm mean the pivot point is moved back 20mm which would translate to forward pitch?

Yes that is how it works.

If you have a blade in front of you, put it on a table with a pen under the middle of the blade, then move the pen back 20mm and see how the front of the blade falls forward.

[BenBreeg 495]

18 minutes ago, Radien55 said:

Yes that is how it works.

If you have a blade in front of you, put it on a table with a pen under the middle of the blade, then move the pen back 20mm and see how the front of the blade falls forward.

Yeah, I understand that, how they state it in the chart was a little weird.  The pivot point would be -20mm which would cause the forward pitch but they label the column pitch and the value is actually the pivot point adjustment.

[Radien55 5]

1 hour ago, BenBreeg said:

Yeah, I understand that, how they state it in the chart was a little weird.  The pivot point would be -20mm which would cause the forward pitch but they label the column pitch and the value is actually the pivot point adjustment.

Yeah I was really confused about that too in the beginning, (still kind of am). They use two different words to describe the same thing, or two different methods to achieve the same result.

I think (big emphasis on think, so any sharpening gurus please correct me if this is wrong) the old machines had a function to profile pitch and it was labeled as such. You would move a lever to x degrees and that would tilt the template and become the pitch profiled onto the blade (i.e. 9.5/10.5 with 1 degree forward pitch). With modern machines (that may not have the pitch lever) they do it by moving the pivot point. This is my current understanding of it, feel free to correct if I got something wrong.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Radien55

[Paluce 26]

The OMNI quads from Blackstone are an improvement over the Prosharp Quads. I exclusively profile using OMNI bars now at my shop.  Below is a picture of a 272 blade on an OMNI 0.5 profile bar. As you can see,  the 4 zones from the Quad has been smoothly blended together to create a profile with a radius of curvature that is continuously changing (just like an Elipse) except you know the exact radii all along the blade… unlike an elipse where the shape is bit of a mystery.    In this case, the 8-10-12-14’ areas are matched to the Prosharp 0.5, but blended all the way through. 

Edited March 20, 2024 by Paluce

[OCpuckhead11 1]

9 hours ago, Paluce said:

The OMNI quads from Blackstone are an improvement over the Prosharp Quads. I exclusively profile using OMNI bars now at my shop.  Below is a picture of a 272 blade on an OMNI 0.5 profile bar. As you can see,  the 4 zones from the Quad has been smoothly blended together to create a profile with a radius of curvature that is continuously changing (just like an Elipse) except you know the exact radii all along the blade… unlike an elipse where the shape is bit of a mystery.    In this case, the 8-10-12-14’ areas are matched to the Prosharp 0.5, but blended all the way through. 

Paluce knows his stuff. My boy was using a Prosharp Quad Profile before Paluce set him up with his Quad Hybrid profile which seems similar to this Omni setup and it was love at first skate. My boy did get acclimated and appreciate the forward pitch that’s added to prosharp profiles so Paluce added same pitch for us, but profile is night and day better…

Edited March 20, 2024 by OCpuckhead11

[Paluce 26]

30 minutes ago, OCpuckhead11 said:

Paluce knows his stuff. My boy was using a Prosharp Quad Profile before Paluce set him up with his Quad Hybrid profile which seems similar to this Omni setup and it was love at first skate. My boy did get acclimated and appreciate the forward pitch that’s added to prosharp profiles so Paluce added same pitch for us, but profile is night and day better…

Thanks man!  Ya I love the Quad/Hybrid profile.  It’s very similar to the profile above, just with a small glide surface in the middle for extra speed 🙂.  That’s what I skate on now, as well as my kids and several of their AAA teammates.  My boy is going to the Wold selects tourney in Bolzano Italy with Pro Hockey, so something has got to be working. 
Check ‘em out CompetitiveEdgeHockey.ca

[Radien55 5]

21 hours ago, Paluce said:

The OMNI quads from Blackstone are an improvement over the Prosharp Quads. I exclusively profile using OMNI bars now at my shop.  Below is a picture of a 272 blade on an OMNI 0.5 profile bar. As you can see,  the 4 zones from the Quad has been smoothly blended together to create a profile with a radius of curvature that is continuously changing (just like an Elipse) except you know the exact radii all along the blade… unlike an elipse where the shape is bit of a mystery.    In this case, the 8-10-12-14’ areas are matched to the Prosharp 0.5, but blended all the way through. 

Wow that sounds like perfection!

You say bars instead of template, so there is no OMNI Quad template that would work on a Prosharp machine?

When I skate on Quad 2, sometimes if feels like I hit a transition point and lose grip for a split second before it catches again and that is a bit sketchy.

I have been very reluctant to try the ellipse profiles for that very fact that you don't know what you will get, so it feels like a total crapshoot and I don't want to waste steel trying back and forth. If I can see numbers, it makes it easier because I know what I like. I'd take a Zuperior and shorten the 13' section a bit in the front to 10' for more agility. Not as much as the Quad 2 because it lost some speed and is too much on the toes. I guess something in between the Zuperior M and Quad 2 would be the sweet spot.

[Paluce 26]

3 hours ago, Radien55 said:

Wow that sounds like perfection!

You say bars instead of template, so there is no OMNI Quad template that would work on a Prosharp machine?

When I skate on Quad 2, sometimes if feels like I hit a transition point and lose grip for a split second before it catches again and that is a bit sketchy.

I have been very reluctant to try the ellipse profiles for that very fact that you don't know what you will get, so it feels like a total crapshoot and I don't want to waste steel trying back and forth. If I can see numbers, it makes it easier because I know what I like. I'd take a Zuperior and shorten the 13' section a bit in the front to 10' for more agility. Not as much as the Quad 2 because it lost some speed and is too much on the toes. I guess something in between the Zuperior M and Quad 2 would be the sweet spot.

What you felt on the Prosharp Quad is exactly why these were developed.  
But these OMNI Profile bars are for Blackstone shaper systems and their new profiler that will be hitting the market pretty soon.   Shops are buying them and using them quite a bit. They’ve been sold to shops as far west as BC, here in Ontario of course, even out to Sweden. They actually have OMNI Zup bars now too. Those have a 20mm blend area between each transition to make that a smoother more gradual change. 

[VegasHockey 1284]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:28 AM, Paluce said:

What you felt on the Prosharp Quad is exactly why these were developed.  
But these OMNI Profile bars are for Blackstone shaper systems and their new profiler that will be hitting the market pretty soon.   Shops are buying them and using them quite a bit. They’ve been sold to shops as far west as BC, here in Ontario of course, even out to Sweden. They actually have OMNI Zup bars now too. Those have a 20mm blend area between each transition to make that a smoother more gradual change. 

Not sure why Blackstone even bothers anymore, as companies like Skatescribe and Elite are significantly better for profiling. Skatescribe allows for an indefinite number of profile options as everything is software driven. 

[Paluce 26]

10 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

Not sure why Blackstone even bothers anymore, as companies like Skatescribe and Elite are significantly better for profiling. Skatescribe allows for an indefinite number of profile options as everything is software driven. 

You havn't seen Blackstone’s new profiler that is coming out then… it’s superior to the Elite IMO.  Measures blades current pitch in degree’s, and you can adjust pitch from there like Skatescribe. It uses keyence sensors to detect steel height for the start of profiling, You can offset the pivot point like on a prosharp. It’s fully automatic. Can do several blades at once. And fast. 4-5 min to profile. Also fast to load. 15sec and you back profiling the next set. 
The elite is still using tracer bars like Blackstone. And Yes Skatescribe can do anything (except an elipse or an OMNI’s) 

So there’s a reason Blackstone is in several NHL rooms. Florida, Washington, St.Louis, Islanders, NJ…. They do things very well.