Profile: Quad 2, too much pitch, how much to remove?

[VegasHockey 1280]

12 hours ago, Paluce said:

You havn't seen Blackstone’s new profiler that is coming out then… it’s superior to the Elite IMO.  Measures blades current pitch in degree’s, and you can adjust pitch from there like Skatescribe. It uses keyence sensors to detect steel height for the start of profiling, You can offset the pivot point like on a prosharp. It’s fully automatic. Can do several blades at once. And fast. 4-5 min to profile. Also fast to load. 15sec and you back profiling the next set. The elite is still using tracer bars like Blackstone. And Yes Skatescribe can do anything (except an elipse or an OMNI’s) 

So there’s a reason Blackstone is in several NHL rooms. Florida, Washington, St.Louis, Islanders, NJ…. They do things very well. 

I saw a prototype of the Blackstone machine. Is that machine still being released in 2025? At the time, I think it was not using Keyence sensors, but that's interesting they are going to incorporate them. Which sensors specifically? I imagine the design would be similar to this? 

https://www.keyence.com/keyence-tv/Profile_Inspection_of_a_Blade.jsp

https://www.keyence.com/products/measure/laser-2d/

Elite has a new machine for 2025 that will supposedly operate without profile bars. I have yet to see it in person, though. 

IMO, profiling bars and the process of manual profiling and sharpening is fundamentally outdated. But I am an engineer, so I think a vast majority of the tools used for hockey are significantly antiquated. Humans make mistakes and industrial machines, if properly designed, calibrated, maintained, and properly operated, can eliminate operational inefficiencies while increasing consistency. 

Skatescribe should be able to do anything, even Ellipse and Omni, you would just need the actual measurements. I don't think there are any patents on Ellipse or Omni profiles. 

The current machines on the market can still benefit from significant design adjustments, I think. 

[Paluce 24]

1 hour ago, VegasHockey said:

I saw a prototype of the Blackstone machine. Is that machine still being released in 2025? At the time, I think it was not using Keyence sensors, but that's interesting they are going to incorporate them. Which sensors specifically? I imagine the design would be similar to this? 

https://www.keyence.com/keyence-tv/Profile_Inspection_of_a_Blade.jsp

https://www.keyence.com/products/measure/laser-2d/

Elite has a new machine for 2025 that will supposedly operate without profile bars. I have yet to see it in person, though. 

IMO, profiling bars and the process of manual profiling and sharpening is fundamentally outdated. But I am an engineer, so I think a vast majority of the tools used for hockey are significantly antiquated. Humans make mistakes and industrial machines, if properly designed, calibrated, maintained, and properly operated, can eliminate operational inefficiencies while increasing consistency. 

Skatescribe should be able to do anything, even Ellipse and Omni, you would just need the actual measurements. I don't think there are any patents on Ellipse or Omni profiles. 

The current machines on the market can still benefit from significant design adjustments, I think. 

You are absolutely right.  So you were at the phats show in AZ…. I did all the surface finish analysis that Skatescribe presented.   So ya, skatescribe’s Tormach cnc could do any profile. Just need to run a CAM software and send it a custom G-code.  No big deal. 

I do custom profiles that way on a Mazak CNC. But I also use my Blackstone at my shop with tracer bars. Easier to train people on that than training a CNC programmer.     Now,  The Skatescribes software is stellar! (I’m sure you know).  
 

I’m an engineer as well so I appreciate your knowledge.  Anyone on your side of the continent reading this should head you way for perfect skates. 
 

and ya, design they added a keyence sensor to detect the bottom of the steel and measure the angle.  The first prototype had one too, but was a different sensor 😉 

 

And correct you can’t patent a quad or elipse, OMNI. It’s like a coffee mug. Maybe a two handle coffee mug.   But You can’t patent a three handle mud, or quad mug. Or infinite number of handles on a mug (elipse or OMNI). Anyways, it’s public knowledge now so not patentable anymore. 

[pgeorgan 76]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:29 AM, Radien55 said:

Yeah I was really confused about that too in the beginning, (still kind of am). They use two different words to describe the same thing, or two different methods to achieve the same result.

I think (big emphasis on think, so any sharpening gurus please correct me if this is wrong) the old machines had a function to profile pitch and it was labeled as such. You would move a lever to x degrees and that would tilt the template and become the pitch profiled onto the blade (i.e. 9.5/10.5 with 1 degree forward pitch). With modern machines (that may not have the pitch lever) they do it by moving the pivot point. This is my current understanding of it, feel free to correct if I got something wrong.

Prosharp template pitch dimension skate profiling sharpening AS 2001

This was a very informative video for me. Disclaimer: I do not own, nor have ever operated one of these machines. 

Edited March 25 by pgeorgan

[pgeorgan 76]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:12 PM, VegasHockey said:

Not sure why Blackstone even bothers anymore, as companies like Skatescribe and Elite are significantly better for profiling. Skatescribe allows for an indefinite number of profile options as everything is software driven. 

My local guy recently switched to Elite. I can't wait to try it. It looks like their "EL4-1 Quad" is equivalent to a Quad 0? That is, 6’ – 9’ – 11’– 13’? 

Too bad there are no Skatescribes in the United States 😞

Edited March 25 by pgeorgan

[VegasHockey 1280]

5 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

My local guy recently switched to Elite. I can't wait to try it. It looks like their "EL4-1 Quad" is equivalent to a Quad 0? That is, 6’ – 9’ – 11’– 13’? 

Too bad there are no Skatescribes in the United States 😞

Soon there will be one in Los Angeles, CA and also in Las Vegas, NV

[OCpuckhead11 1]

On 3/25/2024 at 6:52 PM, VegasHockey said:

Soon there will be one in Los Angeles, CA and also in Las Vegas, NV

Where in LA? Is Potter getting one?

Edited March 29 by OCpuckhead11

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 3/28/2024 at 6:12 PM, OCpuckhead11 said:

Where in LA? Is Potter getting one?

No. In Torrance, there is a new store opening in July, that's nearly 19k square feet plus has warehouse space, is getting all the cool new toys. 😉 

Edited March 30 by VegasHockey

[OCpuckhead11 1]

2 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

No. In Torrance, there is a new store opening in July, that's nearly 19k square feet plus has warehouse space, is getting all the cool new toys. 😉 

That’s great news! Can’t wait to check it out.

[Westside 232]

4 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

No. In Torrance, there is a new store opening in July, that's nearly 19k square feet plus has warehouse space, is getting all the cool new toys. 😉 

Really?! I figured it was just going to be at the new pro shop at TSC where the Kings practice. Will be nice if there’s something closer to LA than having to drive all the way to OC for any hockey supplies 

[VegasHockey 1280]

15 hours ago, Westside said:

Really?! I figured it was just going to be at the new pro shop at TSC where the Kings practice. Will be nice if there’s something closer to LA than having to drive all the way to OC for any hockey supplies 

The store in TSC is the size of a closet, not much square footage there for much of anything. 

[Westside 232]

That’s why I was surprised. Figured there must have been a larger back storage space that wasn’t customer facing 

[OCpuckhead11 1]

On 3/30/2024 at 1:57 PM, VegasHockey said:

No. In Torrance, there is a new store opening in July, that's nearly 19k square feet plus has warehouse space, is getting all the cool new toys. 😉 

Any Update on Grand Opening Dates for new spot? Want to make sure we’re there.

[GoalForFun 176]

On 3/25/2024 at 3:59 PM, pgeorgan said:

It looks like their "EL4-1 Quad" is equivalent to a Quad 0?

Correct (if you haven't gotten a response before now lol)

[Gally1111 1]

On 3/23/2024 at 10:19 PM, Paluce said:

You are absolutely right.  So you were at the phats show in AZ…. I did all the surface finish analysis that Skatescribe presented.   So ya, skatescribe’s Tormach cnc could do any profile. Just need to run a CAM software and send it a custom G-code.  No big deal. 

I do custom profiles that way on a Mazak CNC. But I also use my Blackstone at my shop with tracer bars. Easier to train people on that than training a CNC programmer.     Now,  The Skatescribes software is stellar! (I’m sure you know).  
 

I’m an engineer as well so I appreciate your knowledge.  Anyone on your side of the continent reading this should head you way for perfect skates. 
 

and ya, design they added a keyence sensor to detect the bottom of the steel and measure the angle.  The first prototype had one too, but was a different sensor 😉 

 

And correct you can’t patent a quad or elipse, OMNI. It’s like a coffee mug. Maybe a two handle coffee mug.   But You can’t patent a three handle mud, or quad mug. Or infinite number of handles on a mug (elipse or OMNI). Anyways, it’s public knowledge now so not patentable anymore. 

Question for Paluce......my son skates on Tydan Gold, I got a refresh done yesterday and the pitch on one skate was - 3.9 and - 2.9 on the other . Is this normal for the profile ? The employee was new so I didn't get a great answer.

It didn't seem right so I had both skates done to a p2 which reads as a + 2......I'm now worried if I screwed up the profile or pitched him too much.....he has skated on a powercut p2 before and liked it .Hes a fwd so I dont think he needed negative pitch but just curious if thats how a Gold profile is and if my changes messed it up.....Thanks for any insight!

[Paluce 24]

3 hours ago, Gally1111 said:

Question for Paluce......my son skates on Tydan Gold, I got a refresh done yesterday and the pitch on one skate was - 3.9 and - 2.9 on the other . Is this normal for the profile ? The employee was new so I didn't get a great answer.

It didn't seem right so I had both skates done to a p2 which reads as a + 2......I'm now worried if I screwed up the profile or pitched him too much.....he has skated on a powercut p2 before and liked it .Hes a fwd so I dont think he needed negative pitch but just curious if thats how a Gold profile is and if my changes messed it up.....Thanks for any insight!

First off, I like the Gold profile a lot. You can get it with any pitch you want.   A -P2 -P3 or -P4 pitch is not normal though. And I don’t think anyone would recommend that.  It probably got changed by bad Sharpening over time.  A Good manual sharpener will look at your blade and notice that right away.  He probably had almost 0.5- 1mm more steel height at the toe depending on the length of the blade.   So good call getting it fixed to a +P2. That’s not that extreme.  Go with it, and he’ll adapt quickly. 

[Gally1111 1]

1 hour ago, Paluce said:

First off, I like the Gold profile a lot. You can get it with any pitch you want.   A -P2 -P3 or -P4 pitch is not normal though. And I don’t think anyone would recommend that.  It probably got changed by bad Sharpening over time.  A Good manual sharpener will look at your blade and notice that right away.  He probably had almost 0.5- 1mm more steel height at the toe depending on the length of the blade.   So good call getting it fixed to a +P2. That’s not that extreme.  Go with it, and he’ll adapt quickly. 

Thank you so much! I appreciate your opinion!