Helmets- why isn't football tech brought into hockey

[tro 4]

Watching football tonight, guys are obviously just crushing each other, leading with the head and not one guy tonight seems to show any signs of a concuss. (the constant banging is however leading to Chronic traumatic encephalopathy)

As a multiple concussion suffer from hockey, it got me thinking, how long would a hockey helmet last in a nfl game, 1 series? Before it is blown apart and the player is left out cold on the turf.

The purpose of the helmet is a little different in the two sports, and the amount of expected contact to the head is hugely different, the cut of the helmet.

However, at what pt do the hockey companies look at football helmet and bring in some of the technology, specifically inflated pads that fit to the head? To anyone's knowledge has a hockey company tried this?

Look at the padding in the under pic of this riddell, i would love to wear this on the ice http://www.riddell.com/shop-riddell/helmet/revolution-speed-helmet/

Companies are obviously starting to focus on the impact reduction technology, however, I still see so much focus on weight, the football helmet is what, 7 to 10 lbs, The e700 is 355g, why is hockey so focused on weight, football players don't seem to bothered bye it.

I am fully aware no helmet can prevent concussions in any sport(football certainly has a big problem, mostly from crappy 80's helmets and poor awareness) the brain can slosh around the skull despite the greatest protection on the outside, however, hockey helmets, despite the latest advancements, still seem well behind where they should be and would leave an nfl player in a coma.

So my long winded question is, do you think we will ever see the obsession of weight dropped and the focus to full protection, such as solid one piece and inflatable fit. Discuss or lock, just thought I'd ask.

[shooter27 116]

I think the biggest reason we won't ever see a football-heavy type helmet is that the impacts to the head in both sports are radically different, which is why the helmet design is so radically different. With football the helmet is used as a weapon and a primary point of contact on every single play whereas contact to the head in hockey is much more incidental. You're much more likely to see someone run their head into somebody's chest than it is in hockey. The sports are just so different which is why the helmets are so different.

[Chadd 916]

Adding more weight in a larger helmet could very well increase concussion issues.

[chippa13 1844]

I've seen it written in a couple of places, helmets prevent fractures, not concussions.

[xzzy 0]

I read once upon a time that hockey helmets are designed to protect against bounces. In a single bad collision a player's head could conceivably collide with an elbow, the boards, and the ice. If they go down particularly hard they could probably bounce off the ice several times in quick succession. The theory seems to be that a denser foam protects better against lots of tiny little impacts.

Football probably has those "little impacts" too but a majority of the contact is monster collisions when players are tackling each other. In that sport, they're only worried about absorbing the initial hit.

[TeamHonda401 54]

Any amount/type of padding won't stop your brain from bouncing around in your skull during a big impact.

[hampshirepuck 2]

Companies are definitely acting on the concussion issue, take a look at the inside of a Re-Akt helmet by Bauer: http://ep.yimg.com/c...2229_140638099. On another note, I got a concussion from my 5000 when that was top of the line for preventive concussion technology. Its one thing to offer the technology its another issue to convince the guys to wear the helmets, most guys still prefer the 4500 or V08 with the dual density foam

[wrangler 157]

Any amount/type of padding won't stop your brain from bouncing around in your skull during a big impact.

Sure it will. It's a question of how much and what type of padding you want to carry vs. how big an impact you want it to handle.

[chippa13 1844]

Sure, except a large number of hockey concussions involve contact with the head but not necessarily contact with padded parts of the helmet.

[Wallzy41 9]

I disagree, Wrangler. I went to a conference where TBI(I'm a Pre-Service Special Educator, btw) was a principle point of interest. Unfortunately, helmets don't do anything for the brain in terms of inside the skull. You can protect it from a violent motion that may cause harm to the base of the skull(brain stem injury), but that is also going into cerebro-spinal fracture territory. The grey matter surrounding the brain... think of it this way: The brain is the yoke of an egg, and the grey matter is the egg white. The skull is the shell. You can still cause damage to the yoke and the white while preserving the integrity of the shell.

[wrangler 157]

I disagree, Wrangler. I went to a conference where TBI(I'm a Pre-Service Special Educator, btw) was a principle point of interest. Unfortunately, helmets don't do anything for the brain in terms of inside the skull. You can protect it from a violent motion that may cause harm to the base of the skull(brain stem injury), but that is also going into cerebro-spinal fracture territory. The grey matter surrounding the brain... think of it this way: The brain is the yoke of an egg, and the grey matter is the egg white. The skull is the shell. You can still cause damage to the yoke and the white while preserving the integrity of the shell.

I took issue with the use of an absolute, and pointed out that practical helmet designs involve trade-offs. Your point really doesn't address mine, so I don't see a basis for disagreement.

I thought it obvious that a ridiculous amount of padding would absorb enough impact that a negligible amount of force would be transmitted to the head.

[Hooah4 12]

It's not force that is the problem it's inertia. No matter how much padding you add the fact that the brain is "floating" in CSF inside the skull. You cannot stop it from slamming into the skull wall when coming to a sudden stop from high speed. That is irregardless of if it is an elbow or the ice.

IMO the softer the padding the better (to an extent). not a fan of EPP helmets for me or my son.

[wrangler 157]

It's not force that is the problem it's inertia. No matter how much padding you add the fact that the brain is "floating" in CSF inside the skull. You cannot stop it from slamming into the skull wall when coming to a sudden stop from high speed. That is irregardless of if it is an elbow or the ice.

IMO the softer the padding the better (to an extent). not a fan of EPP helmets for me or my son.

Seriously? Note that I wasn't talking about helmets, just the use of an theoretical absolute, to make a point about real-world tradeoffs. I didn't expect this to turn into a discussion of something other than what I stated. BTW, it's force vs. inertia, two sides of the same coin.

It's obvious that a sufficient amount of the right kind of padding can stop a hockey impact. It's just as obvious that it would be too much padding to carry around.

[tro 4]

I 100% agree, no helmet can fully prevent concussions, buy the best helmet possible that fits youre head proberly and wear a cage(studies have shown the cage doesn't prevent concussions, but do reduce the severity and time of symptoms) , the other thing I have started doing is strengthinging my neck.

However, my original point is that, in my mind, the hockey helmet is far behind the football helmet in reducing the impact. You could not wear a hockey helmet in a football game, it would get smashed apart. I understand the purpose of the helmet in the sports is different, but shouldn't some of the qualites of the football helmet move over to hockey, maybe they have, but inflated pads seem like a good one to me.

[wrangler 157]

It's an interesting question. One thing I've wondered is whether there has been as much research into the helmet technology for hockey, as there has been for football. Maybe the hockey helmets are not taking advantage of modern developments. And when I see NHL players wearing 4500s, and loose chin straps, I also wonder about the demand.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

There have been plenty of research done on types of foams for different impacts. Hence thereason why there is a 2100 helmet from Bauer using the VN foam for slower impacts.

From al the research and meetings andso on Ihave been involved with the main reason thereisnt a football style helmet in hockey is more for rotational impacts. The lighter weight helps in that because you have less extra weight going in that rotation.

Its a mater of combinihg good foams along with fit to make things work thebest for all impacts. Hence the reason for theidea behind the Re-Akt

[rachael7 1]

To address the OP's question regarding abandoning weight considerations in favor of NFL-like protective qualities, the answer is never. And for good reason. The nature of collisions in the two sports is VASTLY different. NFL collisions happen mostly at low speed, particularly when you're talking about the linemen who wear the most protective helmets. Hockey collisions, on the other hand, often happen at extremely high speed, where the issue of inertia of the helmet is a serious factor. Consider that it is routine for NHL players to be traveling in excess of 20mph on the ice. Now think about that open-ice hit. Even if that hit was clean, with no contact to the head, if the player were wearing an NFL weight helmet, the inertia of the helmet might well break the player's neck. The bottom line is that different activities have different helmets because of the different types of collisions that are expected. That is why motorcycle helmets are not the same as car-racing helmets, etc. Even within football, players at different positions wear different types of helmets. It is simply a vast oversimplification of the problem to say that bringing NFL tech into hockey would be better.

[wrangler 157]

Makes sense. Now I'm wondering how fast a football player is traveling, and accelerating, into a hit. I'm thinking that a player can move at quite a high rate of speed for a very short distance.

[davidfinlay276 4]

It seems to me that most hockey concussions are coming from hits to the head. Hits to the head cause very rapid acceleration of the head, which leads to the brain violently smacking against the inside of the skull. Some concussions come from really hard shoulder to shoulder hits with no head contact, but normally there's actual head contact (shoulder or elbow to head), as that's what really causes the head to whip around the quickest. I *DO* think football style helmets would help. They have huge, soft pads, which would absorb a lot of the force of a hit instead of transferring it instantly into acceleration. The weight would actually help too, when you transfer a fixed amount of momentum to an object (such as a head), the heavier object will accelerate slower than the lighter object.

I think the main reason we don't see football style helmets in hockey is . . . well, style. Helmets have been required in the NFL since the 1940s, and facemasks have been common in the NFL since the 1950s. Helmets are a part of football culture, largely because the impacts to the head are simply too severe to ignore. In hockey it's different, you won't be injured immediately with a crappy helmet, or even with no helmet at all. Helmets weren't made mandatory in the NHL until 1979, and even then it was grandfathered in, with helmetless players still in the NHL in the 1990s (MacTavish was the last helmetless player, he went helmet free until 1997). In the NFL everyone wears a facemask, in the NHL nobody wears a cage (they're actually illegal unless you're injured). Many players refuse to even wear a visor. It's part of hockey culture to be cavalier about safety, even with respect to head injuries. If you wore a huge, bulbous, NFL style helmet in hockey, you'd be ridiculed, THAT is the reason you don't see them. Manufacturers know this, so they don't even bother designing them: it would be a waste of money because they wouldn't sell.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

To address the OP's question regarding abandoning weight considerations in favor of NFL-like protective qualities, the answer is never. And for good reason. The nature of collisions in the two sports is VASTLY different. NFL collisions happen mostly at low speed, particularly when you're talking about the linemen who wear the most protective helmets. Hockey collisions, on the other hand, often happen at extremely high speed, where the issue of inertia of the helmet is a serious factor. Consider that it is routine for NHL players to be traveling in excess of 20mph on the ice. Now think about that open-ice hit. Even if that hit was clean, with no contact to the head, if the player were wearing an NFL weight helmet, the inertia of the helmet might well break the player's neck. The bottom line is that different activities have different helmets because of the different types of collisions that are expected. That is why motorcycle helmets are not the same as car-racing helmets, etc. Even within football, players at different positions wear different types of helmets. It is simply a vast oversimplification of the problem to say that bringing NFL tech into hockey would be better.

Thats what I meant.,..........LOL

[chippa13 1844]

I guarantee that Pat LaFontaine, the Lindros Brothers, Ian Lapierre, Paul Kariya, et al would have jumped at the chance to wear something that would have protected them from concussions. The thing is, there is no helmet, football or otherwise, that currently protects against rotational impacts, regardless of what Bauer claims with the Reakt.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I guarantee that Pat LaFontaine, the Lindros Brothers, Ian Lapierre, Paul Kariya, et al would have jumped at the chance to wear something that would have protected them from concussions. The thing is, there is no helmet, football or otherwise, that currently protects against rotational impacts, regardless of what Bauer claims with the Reakt.

I never said that the Bauer Helmet claimed anything? What I said was people are looking at the fact that Rotation is the major issue and this is the first step towards helping to assisst in lessening this!

[chippa13 1844]

The timing of my response was off. I was responding to the post by davidfinlay256.

[Captain Sane 2]

First of all, a football helmet doesn't weigh 7-10 lbs, I just looked up the most advanced Schutt helmet and it weighs less than 3.5 lbs on average.

Second, as another poster pointed out, the needs for football helmets and hockey helmets are very different. And a lot of the features you're talking about, mainly the inflatable pads, are address in hockey helmets through the adjustments you can make (you know, lifting the slots on the side and pushing/pulling the helmet). The biggest reason football helmets have inflatable pads is because it's the only real way to adjust the fit.

After that, it's just impact absorption, and hockey helmets can't really afford to add weight, but they really don't need to. It looks like the Cascade helmets use virtually the same kind of padding as a football helmet, and if I remember right a lot of the high-priced helmets use the same materials as motorcycle helmets, which I think has just as much effectiveness at absorbing impacts as anything.

[wrangler 157]

It's my understanding that motorcycle helmets are designed to absorb only one impact, destroying themselves in the process. Hockey and football helmets use foams that are designed to absorb more than one impact, returning to their original shape after impact. I believe that this results in less impact absorption for the materials used in hockey and football helmets.