smcgreg

Not to belabor this point too much, but without doing any extensive calculations, we know from the running literature that for constant speed running, an additional 100 g to the weight (mass) of shoes adds approximately 1% to the Oxygen cost (O2 cost). At constant, steady state efforts, O2 cost is a good proxy and directly related to the metabolic expenditure. So, if maintaining constant speed, simply moving the boot through space would likely cost an extra 1% per 100 grams (likely more since there isn't a spring-mass component to skating like there is in running). The thing is, hockey ain't a constant, steady state effort. Hockey relies much more on anaerobic energy sources and non-constant speeds. Since anaerobic metabolism is much more costly and less efficient than aerobic metabolism, then the cost of 100 grams would be exponentially greater and impacts glycogen stores substantially more than for constant speed running. How much greater? It would take a bit of hand waving in addition to calculations. Regardless, at the top level of any sport, we know that 2 % is quite a costly difference in performance, and it is likely more than that. The difference may not be perceptible, but it is there. Anyway, I'll leave it at that at the risk of going too far afield.

Actually, further up the thread, in the initial post by VH, they make reference to the fact that they plan to offer a fully custom option for ~ $1000, and a retail option that will be on par with the other top end skates. The only issue will be the timeline on the retail option, I think. I doubt VH will give you specifics on that because, as a business man, he is probably aware that timelines are fluid and once you give a hard timeline, customers are often disappointed if it doesn't materialize. Who knows though, he may chime in on that point as well.

Thanks for the response. Well, your description of yourself indicates to me that you are a skeptic.... in a good way. There are many intangibles in skating/hockey. Therefore, in my case, before going to FBV, I wanted to get objective data just like you. Further, the guy who sharpens my skates, and who is a certified FBV guy, tells me there is no benefit to the FBV. He charges more just like anybody else, but says he's sharpened an entire team with FBV and they couldn't tell the difference. To his credit, he can make more money for the sharpening, but dissuades potential customers from getting it; go figure. That being said, I don't put a lot of stock in what this guy says right now. At the same time, it is a balancing opinion to those on the forum who swear by FBV. So, having followed your posts on the topic to some extent, I was curious to see your impressions. I will likely be trying FBV in the future after I have fully adapted to my Makos and can be a bit more certain that any noticeable change (good or bad) would be a result of the sharpening. Right now, after only having been on the Makos for a week or so, I don't think that's possible. I am definitely leaning more towards it now after your impressions. Then if I think there is value, I will likely get a sharpener as well. With an 8 yr and a 5 yr and myself, it will pay for itself in relatively short time frame.

This would indicate there will be mass production Aireaye, you are right on the ball, you can do much great customization with the monocoque process, including customizing the toe box for Hallux (big toe) deformaties. Our current model has the toe box as part of the monocoque boot body. Our production model skate, down the road, will have a plastic toe cap as this allows for more consistent, streamlined mass production.

What cut did you end up getting? Since you were a skeptic, I'm interested in your impression/results.

Yeah, but can you even get sprungs anymore? I e-mailed them with no reply a while back. Re: weight. Funny, I got slammed a few weeks ago for arguing weight mattered. Oh well.

Sure, but even a niche hockey skate is still likely a bigger market than the other markets they currently have to compete in. They obviously have all the elements in place to know exactly what it's going to cost to produce and sell their product, and they are going to scale up incrementally. Seems like they're just growing and will be able to support themselves if they're a niche player, and yet, if they make an impact, potentially be a target for acquisition by another bigger player.

As a new Mako user, let me volunteer my services as a LTR for this bad boy when they come available ;) Seriously, there are some issues with my Makos that these seem to address, primarily the tendon guard, but also the moncoque design. Damn... skate tech seems to be taking off. Will be interesting to see how they turn out as a retail product.

Ditto here... no lace bite.

Trukweaz?... Holy crap, is that you Kurt? Small world. Regarding the fit, I started in a 7 and the toes brushed, then went to a 6.5 and the toes were pretty jammed. After baking though, the 6.5s fit perfect. I have an E foot in supremes and the D width in the Mako is good. See you over on ST some time. Steve

Yep. What do you want to know? You can read my first skate report further up the thread.

Chadd, do you have the clicking when you walk in them? If so, any idea what's the deal?

I was kidding. My follow up indicates my real feelings. Granted, it did take me a good 15 min to fall in love with them. Here are some other thoughts. 1) After baking in the store, they did feel friggin awesome. I wanted to wear them to bed they were so comfy. After cooling though, they are very very stiff, hard skates. I had them baked wearing stocking like thin socks, so, that's what I wore when I first stepped on the ice. There were a number of places though where they were kind of digging into my feet. So, the comfy feeling immediate after baking is a bit misleading. 2) In particular, not sure if anybody else mentioned this, but the heel sinks so far into the back of the skate, that simply walking from the locker room to the ice was killing my achilles tendon. On the ice it's not as bad since once you flex at the knees and ankles it goes away a bit, but holy cow, after two trips to the locker room, I felt like I should crawl. I was seriously concerned about tendinitis, even on the ice until I made some tweaks. 3) I have a particular issue with all of my skates that I've addressed in the "heel lock" thread. That being, that something about my right foot puts too much pressure on the inside edge and makes it difficult to effectively use my outside edge. I have fixed this in my Tones by getting Stable 26 socks and putting the pad on the inside of the heel, which pushes my heel farther outside and balances the pressure more effectively. I was honestly hoping this issue would not be present in the Makos because the Stable 26s are kind of a PITA at times. They need to be positioned "just so" or they are very uncomfortable. So, I started out skating in a traditional stocking thick sock like the one I had them baked in. Anyway..... after about 10 min I realized the issue was still there (inside vs outside edge) in the Makos. NOt as bad as in my Tones, but still there. So, I went in and put my Stable 26s on that foot. Went back out on the ice and..... VOILA!!!! perfect!!! This actually alleviated the achilles issue somewhat as well since the Stables are a wee bit thicker than the other socks. After skating a few more min, I was getting concerned about my achilles on the left and thought that the right felt so good that I threw on my other Stable sock and ..... Ding ding ding.... we have a winner! Both skates feel perfect. This was a bit surprising to me though because..... i) I have an E foot and got a D pair of Makos knowing they would open up. Even so, there is enough negative space in the heel as to allow me to put on a thicker sock with heel inserts and improve the heel lock. This was unexpected. It's ok for me, because since I need the heel alignment anyway, it allows me to use that thicker sock and insert without discomfort. Just surprising I guess. 4) Performance wise.. ... WOW! Turning radius... holy crap! Well, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, my Tone's are 10.5 ft radius and I had been consdidering going to a 9-9.5 ft, so, was it simply the radius? I dunno, but damn.... they turn on a dime. Acceleration.... well, that's what they were designed for, so, I'd expect them to perform. I was very surprised though that the pitch didn't bother me at all? After I sorted out my sock/heel alignment issue, I felt like I had been skating on them for years. They simply felt awesome. 5) Caveat to 4) I was at a sticks and pucks, so, who knows how well I will actually accelerate relative to others? Will I be faster? Still, the other aspects of performance (e.g. turning, agility) were night and day compared to my Tones, so, I expect the performance will translate in a game situation. That being said, although I wanted to hold back since I have 7 games in the ntext 7 days, and today I was supposed to be off to rest from the previous week's efforts, I ended up skating pretty hard 'cuz I was having so much fun. Still, afterwards, my legs didnt' feel tired? Usually after a hard skate, I can feel the various muscles that I need to use to "get going". My guess is that since they are built for acceleration, I don't need those as much, so, not as tired. Again, games will tell. 6) Negatives... after I sorted the sock issues out, I am less concerned about the achilles. The skates fit awesome after that, and even walking back to the locker room it wasn't so bad as before. So, I think there was actually a bit of heel slippage with the thinner sock. Other than that, in another review that was less than glowing, the guy mentioned the steel or holder "clicking" when he walked. I noticed this too, and wonder what the heck is the deal. I'm hesitant to tighten the bolts too much. Anybody know what the deal is with that sound (that is if anybody read this far)? 7) One more thing I forgot. In my Tones I use a Sidas footbed. Not the Graf one, but a ski version, but essentially the same thing. Anyway, I have a high arch and I cannot skate in any other skate without that footbed. That is, until now. Is the Mako footbed as comfy as my Sidas? Not quite, but damn close. I wonder if another bake might even make it equal. So, people who balk at the price, I am saving money (relative to another skate) because for a Tone, you have a retail price of $800 + a $150 footbed. Granted, I didn't pay retail, but still... All in all, after only one sticks and pucks, they are more comfortable than the other most comfortable skate I have worn with an extra footbed, and there was very little adaptation necessary. If it weren't for the heel alignment issue (and possibly the achilles rubbing), I could have played a game and probably played better than ever. First one is tomorrow and I'm wearing these with high expectations. That's about it for now. I'll likely follow up after a game or two with real performance impressions.

OK, now seriously.... I'm trying to be level headed, but I am very much in love with these. They do live up to the hype for me.

I hate these F'in skates! Anybody want a pair?

Thanks for that info. My Tones are a 10.5 ft radius, So, that's another factor to consider. I had thought about going to a smaller radius anyway, so, we'll see how it goes. I hadn't considered making sure they are matched though. I would hope they would be, but I know that's an assumption that isn't always justifiable. Thanks

Good point. Thanks

Well, yeah, but not skating on them until tomorrow. Seriously though, if anybody sees this that's had experience, the LHS I got em at told me they don't need to be contoured/profiled. I was a bit skeptical. It doesn't matter, I wouldn't trust them to do it anyway, but I was wondering if those who have used them still get them profiled. My guess is yes, still get them profiled. Any feedback will be helpful. I expect the first couple skates will feel weird enough that I won't know if they need it or not.

OK, took the plunge. Got em baked at the store and couldn't stand to leave without taking them with me. First skate tomorrow after cooling for 20 hr. I doubt I'll sleep much tonight.

Since the Mako is such a different skate than anything else, I wonder if they will market downspec models in the future. Currently, it's analogous to only having the NXG available in the Supreme line. In that respect, I'd be interested in the junior model for my son, but a $500 skate for a squirt is a bit much. It would be a different story if they could compete with the one.8, though. It would seem to make sense to produce models that could compete with the lower price points in other lines. OTOH, they could take a "no compromise" approach and say there's no other way to do it other than to do it right. I expect at some point, Easton won't want to leave money on the table that could be picked up at lower price points, though.

Fair enough regarding the comparisons. Certainly fit is important, the most important, but weight is a factor in performance, whether people want to acknowledge that or not. How important a factor is a point of debate, but it's certainly not irrelevant. Back to the discussion sans ala weight.

So, why were all the posts related to the weight pulled? Some may not think it's that important, but some others might. Why not let the readers be the judge? It's not like they were inflammatory.

My impression has been, and I have not been corrected by most retailers, is that you can bake Bauers 2 x (at least the high end Supremes), then you start compromising the quality of the boot. OTOH, Grafs are essentially unlimited in the number of times you can bake. Is this wrong?

Well, I have a similar issue in Supremes, I presume, because of the width of my heel. In EE, I am a full size shorter than D, but EE is a bit wide for me. Ended up settling on a custom E from prostock return. My point is, it's possible the length issue could be settled with baking if the heel widens. Expensive experiment to try though unless they allow you to bake before buying like Graf dealers do. On that note, for those that know, can you do multiple bakes on the Makos? or at least more than once or twice so that it is realistic to bake in the store before buying?

Hmm... I was thinking about getting playoff tickets. Maybe I'll them in action live.