smcgreg

If I could get them through you, I'd be happy to do so. When I contact them, I'll let them know where I got the info. Thanks for everything. Steve

Yeah, that's me, always looking for the subpar job.... I get what you''re saying, but I'm not the problem 😉 Thanks for the referral. I'll reach out. Steve

Thanks. I guess they don't want to sell. Oh well

Did you ever find any info out about these? My son is still in Makos and actually wearing a pair I bought for myself when they went out of business. He's playing varsity HS now and I'm worried about taking a shot off the foot from an 18 yr old with a cannon. He's not concerned, but I"m sure he'll be bummed if he takes one off the foot in makos with no extra protection.

To condense my point more clearly, I'll put it this way.... I think there is greater potential for a biomechanical approach to skate alignment to be more beneficial to skating than cleat alignment to cycling. That being said, simply throwing biomechanical and "sciency" approaches at a problem and claiming miraculous results still leaves open the possibility that the overall approach is quackery and with skating it's honestly more difficult to tell. So, I'll remain critically interested in more information that will hopefully be forthcoming.

Again,.... skate alignment is MUCH MORE complicated than cycling cleat alignment. On a bike, the foot travels through a circle and is always in contact with the surface through which the power is being transferred. So, alignments are subject to pretty rudimentary physical principles. Even still,... although I know you feel like you made substantial increases in power output with alignment changes, it's actually pretty atypical. The placebo effect is almost impossible to eliminate and I've seen just as many cases when riders power got worse due to a poor fit adjustment. The literature and even the physics themselves don't support the claim that substantial power improvements can be gained with most traditional biomechanical alignment changes (mitigation of soft tissue injury maybe,.. but power, not so much). There is no doubt that the order of improvement would come from 1) aerodynamics 2) gross changes that would optimize hip angle to maximize power output while maintaining aero position (this is an optimization problem),.... then..... way way way down the line would be like 10) cleat alignment. Granted, improvements to a simply horrible position or fit can yield improvements. In general though, performance improvements due to most biomechanical changes to a rider who is already a trained rider are very much oversold and, ... hence... snake oil 😉 My point with this rant is, the oft cited notion of "scientific" approach to bike fit using biomechanical tools to improve performance is mostly hogwash. ** OTOH, any other type of locomotion (e.g. running, skating, skiing, etc) is subject to many more degrees of freedom and, as such, it is much more difficult to get generally applicable rules that apply. So, the issue here is that there may be gains to be made due to the enormous degrees of freedom, but it's difficult to get away from the "whack a mole" scenario. I.e. if you make a change how do you know it doesn't have an unintended consequence that could be detrimental? All that being said, it's plausible that a sound biomechanical approach could identify issues that if rectified could result in improvements. There just isn't enough info right now to determine one way or the other. Simply using force plates to measure jumps and gross asymmetries isn't enough info imo. We shall see as more info comes out. **I know this rant seems off topic, but Bunnyman alluded to the approaches used in cycling and I thought it would be good to point out some of the misconceptions regarding these approaches and how it could inform this topic.

Ok, but you did say "cleat alignment", not aerodynamic optimization. That being said, other than aero optimization, I would say most bike fitting approaches, especially using things such as VO2 are actual snake oil. Just because somebody uses scientific tools, it doesn't mean the application of those tools is necessarily a valid approach. I still chuckle at the "scientific fitters" who essentially set money on fire by testing lactate in the wind tunnel to get the "most accurate" results. So, your comment earlier that this skate fitting approach wasn't snake oil, I thought to myself, "we don't know that yet". One could use force plates and 3D motion analysis and the approach could still be snake oil. There's still a lot that needs to be presented here before it can be determined how skeptical buyers should be.

Just a wee bit more complicated aligning skates vs cleats on bikes though. Just sayin'.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. So, a jump test with force plates? If it's prohibitively expensive, that would make some sense. It would be the only way to really get the kind of accuracy you're talking about with something heel contact. It would also be something that would be fairly straightforward to automate along the lines of something like ReTul that's been done in the bike retail industry. As far as those skate modifications, those were my skates not my son's. He's in more or less stock Makos. Slight modification to the pitch to make them less aggressive, but other than that pretty straightforward. That's my point, I have modified mine based on my own perceptions of what I needed to do to deal with my unilateral valgus. I haven't messed with his other than to provide the best fitting skate (Makos) with loose ankles (he goes two down from the top on Makos... crazy ankle strength). So, he has very good mobility and stride characteristics. Could they be improved? I'm open to the notion, but need to have a quantitative approach so that we know what is being done, why and how to go back. Skating is his strength, but as he rises levels, it's a less distinctive strength, so, need to keep staying ahead of the curve. Anyway, I'll keep my eyes open for more info and developments. Thanks,

Thanks. I'll reiterate my main question from before "Can you enlighten us a bit more on how the process is made so darn accurate? " If you can't do that, it's fine, but that's what I'm really interested in. As one who has modified his own Makos with the following modifications 1) Lateral shim between boot and holder on right skate, no shims on left 2) moving the blade laterally as far as can be accomodated with the Mako boot 3) left skate -1 vs stock CXN and right skate -2 vs stock CXN 4) tweaking of the right footbed, depending on the footbed (I've tried them all) So, you can see I think about this quite a bit and have actually done most of the things this company is doing. So, I'm just wondering how the get things so darn accurate, because I've thought about how to do that myself. Again, I'm legitimately curious and if they can substantiate how they do it and can do it better than what I've worked out on my own, I'd be very interested in utilizing the system.

Well, that's somewhat more clear, so, thanks. If it's patented, I guess we can go find out for ourselves. It's simply a shim system though? No blade movement? Can you enlighten us a bit more on how the process is made so darn accurate? I can understand if you don't feel comfortable providing all the info yourself, but it's a bit odd that they have a website, but don't want to let people know what the product is, don't you think? 😉 Generally speaking, if you have a website, the point is to get info out to potential customers, so, it's a bit of a head scratcher. You have commented that they are addressing the website, so, maybe that will change. I guess I'll keep my eyes open for where there is actual information presented. This is the time of year I investigate options for my son. We never make changes midseason unless something drastic happens. Right now is when we might test a shimming system or the like for him. For me, ... I'm always testing.. 😉 Thanks again.

OTG, it was somewhat tongue in cheek, because knowing you as long as I have, I think you are genuine. On the other hand, if you take the two threads together the cynical might infer less genuine intent. If I recall over the years, you have made similar comments to others who have made unsubstantiated claims in a similar fashion. Maybe it would be better if somebody could simply state what these things are CLEARLY and what they are intended to do. The website doesn't make it clear. You alluded to them in response to me in the VH thread, but again, not what they were, just that they made your son a better hockey player without me bringing them up. Others have specifically asked what they are, but all answers have been rather nebulous and point to the fact it's expensive, but...... See what I'm getting at? I'm genuinely curious and have posted comments and observations related to shims etc for years. So, I'd like to know what's going on and what might be possible if they were available to the general public. Thanks,

The cynical among us might think, between the VH thread and this one, this is a case of gorilla marketing at its finest. Well, we can't really say what it is other than it improves skating... somehow, but really well. It's so super secret only pros can do it.... well, except at my shop and one other..... Just sayin.

At the risk of getting too far off topic, it is possible to be guilty of plagiarizing oneself in a peer reviewed article. That being said, my original comment was ironically pointed at what appeared to be copying the Mako, since I'm well aware SVH was involved with DC on the MLX skate. The reason I thought it was worth noting was that if the heel had changed, maybe the boot had gotten lighter. It appears from subsequent comments that it has gotten lighter, although I'm not sure the heel has actually changed. Back on topic, if the weight has come down, that's very interesting. My son is a Dman and since he's a bantam, shots are starting to hurt the foot in Makos. I told him he should get a beefier skate and Trues are better for that, but he hated the weight when he tried them on. So, if the weight has come down significantly, but they are still more resistant to shots than the Makos, it might be time to switch.

Yes, but I can't copy and paste myself in a publication... that's plagiarism. Just saying. Seriously though, yes, I know and I was kind of thinking the same thing, but at the end of the day Mako and True (VH) are two different skate lines, so, one would be imitating the other if the scenario played out. heck it would be very nice if somebody would simply imitate makos for real so I don't need to keep scouring the web for 5 yr old "new" skates for my kids. Oh well...

After looking at it again, maybe you're right. The picture made it look more like a mako heel, but I think it's just the lighting or something. Nevermind....

Um no. The heel of old Trues vs the heel of the new Trues, see the difference? What does it look like?

Interesting how the complaining stopped when asked for story details. Now I'm very curious.

Less imitation? Hmm.... that back end looks a lot like another skate.... which one?? Hmmm....

As Vet88 writes above and I have commented on several times on this site, orthotics will only exacerbate pronation. My son has feet as flat as boards and orthotics made his pronation worse and killed his feet. For his flat feet, skates with no support feel best. He wears orthotics in his athletic shoes, which are necessary to avoid problems, but only make things worse in his skates. In my case, I pronate on my right foot, but am neutral on my left. In this case, it's not truly pronation, but the weight is inside the center of the foot and hence more on the inside edge, because with old age, my right knee has become Valgus. This was not an issue when I skated as a kid and young adult. It only became a problem when I started skating again in middle age. Anyway, the only thing that has worked for me is to have the blade moved inward to move it back under the center of pressure of my foot. This isn't sufficient alone, as I've also shimmed under the holder, but actually shimmed the outside of the skate rather than the inside (which is what one would do for pronation in shoes). Anyway, I would not look to orthotics to solve a situation where one "pronates" in skates. Again, this has been discussed extensively in various threads I've commented on.

Do they have a website? All I see is twitter and I'd like to know pricing etc...

I'm not in Trues, but when I went from Supremes to Makos I found a similar issue. I left the top two undone on my Supremes, but since the Makos were lower, I didn't feel like I could do that, so, I laced them all the way up and felt like I lost some forward flex. So, I went to 55 flex and that fixed the issue. Now, the problem is that 55 flex is no longer around (add it to the list of innovations that went away), so, I've had to get GREAT SAVES alternative. I actually don't like them as much as the 55 flex, but after some fiddling, got them to work like my old set up. So, my point is, if your other attempts don't work, you might want to try the lace extender to improve flex. Again, I felt exactly the same way when I initially moved to Makos.

As I said in the immediate previous reply to another poster, I had the same issue. I skate a lot and gave it 2 years. After 2 years, I gave up and got rid of the extreme pitch. Much better.

I skate 4-6 times per week and gave the aggressive pitch 2 years. I use a deep knee bend on a skate with neutral pitch. I don't need to skate in high heels to exhibit a deep knee bend .... when appropriate. That being said, I felt the exact same way, when not skating, but battling on the boards or in front of net, I continually fell forward. I was simply off balance. I also washed out a lot on turns. So, after 2 years, I had had enough. I had the pitch eliminated from the steel ( still have the holder pitch) and problem solved! In response to the poster wondering how to address the pitch, I've used both approaches. Both my son and daughter have Makos as well (I've stocked up 6 pairs for the kids to grow into). On my son's we put TUUK holders and LS runners. This would eliminate most of the pitch and matched his old Vapors pretty well. The problem is, the rivets pull out a lot. They don't align perfectly and are stressed too much. There have been a couple of times I've taken them in to get sharpened and loose rivets have been identified. In one case, we were in the middle of a tournament and they were so bad, J.R. had to redo one skate while I waited on a busy Saturday afternoon so, he could play 40 min later. (As always, great service J.R.) On my daughter's, we just went -3 on the pitch and that brings her close to her Jetspeeds, but still gives her probably a plus 1 pitch. They were +4 out of the box, which is crazy!