smcgreg

I have several posts on this topic (i.e. superfeet and flat feet) in various threads. I think the general argument that Superfeet are good for pronation and/or flat feet is misguided. I have pronation issues myself, but more to your point, my son has VERY flat feet, with hyperlaxity (i.e. flexible arch). Over the years, I tried many different insoles, including superfeet, and they all made him miserable. For the past 3 years, he has been in Vapors (that fit his foot shape and volume), with the stock minimal footbed and no complaints. This past week, we just got him a pair of Makos and slapped on TUUK holders and use the stock footbeds, and again, no complaints, he loves them. My point is, don't try superfeet and force yourself to like them thinking they should. The most important thing is skate fit and appropriate shape. Then, if you have flat feet, you may not want any arch support at all. Skating is not walking or running, therefore the biomechanical issues related to low arches are much different. Superfeet are designed for heel stabilization, not arch support and you may be miserable in them. If you are, try the stock footbeds and you may be fine. if so, the Superfeet can go back for a refund. If you like them, great. Just don't try to force yourself to like them, because you think you should.

Yes, but times and temps are on the box, are they not?

Well, considering the inventor of the skate promotes doing it in a conventional oven, not sure what the issue is. I've baked two different pairs of Makos a couple times each in my oven at home with no issues. I used to sweat over home baking, but not anymore (at least skates).

Agreed, I was in a Supreme E and wear a Mako D. Also, you MUST try them on after baking or there is no relationship to how they will fit after baking. I couldn't get my foot into the 6.5 D before baking. It was perfect after.

Well, the shots are already hard enough to hurt at 10 in the wrong spots. A AAA kid dropped him like a sack of potatoes in a 3v3 tournament with a slapshot that hit him on the hip and missed the pads. It hasn't happened on the foot yet, but the time will come............. I wouldn't be surprised if he started taking some that hurt on the foot this year. If I recall, isn't your son the one that "over pronates" and he's in Makos? Do you get the blade aligned? or has he grown out of it?

Kids always got bullied. That's a good way to put it though. A badge of honor for blocking shots. His home white jersey looks like he's a target in the shooting range with all the black puck marks on it. Against much better teams, when we're pinned in the zone, he's made more saves than the goalies. He likes to show that jersey off. Granted, it would be nice not to get pinned in the zone..... So, maybe that will be the way to go with it once the time comes.

or.. one could subscribe to the old addage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." ;) Also, I just bought him his first pair of Junior skates. Went from paying $150 for the last year's top of the line to paying $250 for last year's top of the line. Custom VHs is a much more substantial investment, epecially when he likes what he's in. When I considered Makos for him, it was the M8 option. Heck, does VH even have a junior skate? It would be a tough pill to swallow to shell out $800 for a skate that might only be used for 1 yr or less.

Since this seems to have gotten off track a bit, I'll defend my son, then let it go. I made a glib statement for humor's sake, not wanting to elaborate too much. So, here goes, ...as for function and all that goes with it, for him, that is the number 1 consideration. I mentioned I held off on trying to have him switch to Makos because of shots, but his skating is exceptional in Vapors and I know he would be very reticent to potentially mess that up. Function is #1 to him and what contributes to that is most important. So, with the shot blockers, I was being a bit glib, but they are a tough sell because they are preventative. What 10 yr old or 11, or 12, etc... believes he is going to be hurt by a shot on the foot. Once he starts taking them to the foot more regularly and they are hard enough to get his attention, then maybe an easier sell. The other part of it though is, I'm sure he would be concerned, in fact, I know he would, about putting anything on his skate that will potentially make him slower or mess up mechanics. Whether or not it would, it doesn't matter if he thinks it would. So, again, that would be a tough part of the sell at this point. I'm sure if he's playing JRs in 8-10 years and taking slapshots to the foot every game, shot blockers may be an attractive option. Heck, next year they're taking slap shots and some of them are pretty good, so, maybe it will be that soon. He's a level headed kid who doesn't want to look like a dork, but is primarily concerned with playing welll and what will specifcally help that.

Have you ever tried to tell a 10 yr old to wear something like that? Good luck.

Misaligned steel. The padding had broken down quite a bit though, but other than that, no major issues. To the reps credit, the misalignment was minor and one shop told me they shouldn't be warrantied. Another said they should and pushed for it from the rep. He agreed and I got the IIs. I skate a lot and they're holding up ok. Granted, since I just wrote this, I'm sure they'll start falling apart.... damn... jinxed.

I've been on Mako IIs for about a year, skating 4+ times per week (sometimes 7+) with no manufacturer defect. I had Mako Is for over a year before that and had them warrantied. I can't imagine trying to go back to Supremes, which I came from. I've put them on a couple times and tried to skate in them just to see and went straight back to the locker room and changed back. I have Supremes converted to inlines and can't skate in them. Now that I've been in Makos for over two years, I'm spoiled and can't imagine going back to a more traditional boot. The only gripe I have with them is that shots hurt. I've hesitated to put my son in them, because he's a defenseman and blocks a lot of shots and I don't want him breaking a foot. For me though, I can step out of the way in beer league or drop in. Still, the ones I don't get out of the way of hurt.

Sorry, but there's no simpler answer to your question. I came from Supreme Tones and went down a half size in length and from E to D. They are so moldable, it is very difficult to know how they will fit without actually trying them on and baking them. If there is no possible way to try them on, I would suggest first trying to find a mail order that will accept them on return if not sharpened. They are made to bake several times, so, you should be able to bake them yourself and see how they fit. If they don't fit, don't sharpen them and send back.

Nope. My feet look like cooked sausages bulging out of the casing in mine and no issues.

I do. In fact, I have 55 flex on mine and still leave the top undone. I even tried the top 2 undone, but that was a bit too much. I came from Tones always leaving the top 2 undone. I should say though, that I've backed off the aggressive pitch on mine. I think if you give enough flex at the ankle, you don't need the aggressive pitch to "force" you into a good skating position. If you have the fore/aft flex at the ankles, you can get the ankle/knee bend on a more neutral pitch. With the aggressive pitch, I always felt unstable when battling on the boards or really doing anything where I wasn't moving at speed. My 2 cents.

Hi SMU, I think we've corresponded on this topic before. To address your point about not having flat feet, but still "pronating" in skates, I have a similar situation. I actually have fairly high arches in both feet, but only "pronate" in the right skate. After a fair bit of work on the skates and evaluating myself, the source of my issue has been a progressive valgus (knock kneed) evolution of my right leg with age. Because my right knee bends medially (toward the middle) it causes my center of mass to be over the inside of the skate versus the left side, which is not valgus. Further, it is exacerbated when I bend my knees. My point is, you may not have flat feet or even "pronate" in shoes, but due to other anthropometric changes with age, your center of mass may have changed over the years relative to the skate blade. I've tried many of the things you have, and most recently, I've placed about 3 mm of shimms on the outside/lateral part of the skate between the boot and holder. This has effectively raised the right skate so much that I have had to go with two different pitches on my Mako IIs. I have a (-1 profile) on the left and a (-3 profile) on the right. So, one thing to think about is if you are shimming, that may be throwing off your balance between sides apart from the "pronation" issue. (I put pronation in quotes, because in my case, it's really not pronation, but results in the same effect). To get back to the blade alignment issue, I have the same problem in my Mako IIs. I have put in T-nuts so, I can easily shim or remove and was planning to use them to facilitate moving the blade medially (toward the center line), but there just isn't enough room on the boot to drill new holes and move the holder. So, trying to think about different skates now that may allow me to do so. I love the fit of the Mako though, so, it would be tough to change, but I am very sick of not being over my blade on one foot, when things are perfect on the other. I'll keep you posted on anything I come up with. Please do the same.

I had 6.5D in the original and got a 6.5 D in warranty replacement. They fit exactly the same.

Ummm... I'm not sure about this. I don't think the Makos can be stretched. One of the gurus like JR or Jimmy might be able to chime in on this, but I'd hate to get them too small and not be able to stretch them. On all other points I agree though. Baked mine several times and used the heat gun further. Very moldable skates. In fact, initially when I had a couple local hot spots and contacted Scott at VH about custom skates, he actually encouraged me to "fiddle" with my Makos since they are so moldable. To me, that is a testament to Scott and his character, but also a comment on the level of moldability of the Makos. Anyway, before buying small, I'd confirm the stretchability.

I wouldn't expec the Mako 8 to fit differently than the Mako II, but have no experience with the 8. That being said, sounds like 6.5 D is the way to go to me. A bit of room in the 6.5 and toe cramped in 6.0. Not sure what else there is to say. I suppose if the 6Ds weren't baked all the way, they might open up a bit more. Not sure why they wouldn't bake them all the way though. that's the selling point. Sorry I don't have more to offer.

Did you have them baked? When baked, the heel will open up and give you more room in the toe. I came from Supremes, 6.5 E (custom) since my foot is too wide for D and too narrow for EE. I wear Mako 6.5 D. I'm guessing you are probably a 6.5 D in the mako and if you have them baked when you try them, they will be perfect. When I was trying them on, I couldn't get my foot into the 6.5 or 7 until they were baked. The 7.5 felt good unbaked, but the salesguy was good in suggesting the bake and that they would open up. I know some shops aren't good about baking when trying on, but they open up sooooo much, you need to bake them to know.

I know you weren't replying to me, but I agree on this. As I indicated earlier, if profiling/sharpener consistency wasn't an issue/concern, profiling is probably the better approach. Some problems can't be fixed by profiling (e.g. pronation), though, so, sometimes shims are the only approach aside from boot surgery.

I did the T-nuts in collaboration with the guy who works on my skates at my local Total Hockey. I got the idea from various threads on this site that discuss the t-nut approach. The only thing I needed help with was pulling the rivets, once that was done, the t-nuts are cake. I picked mine up (the t-nuts and screws) from Home depot. After doing that, I use thin cutting board material (HDPE) for shims and can add/remove as desired. Ultimately, I want to move my holder in (medially) on one skate, but leaving that until the last and probably until Makos are on clearance, so, if I muck it up I can pick up a replacement cheap. For now, I'm close to the way I want things, but that holder needs to be moved on one skate. How I measured it was by watching the two skate guys (one of whom you may "know" from this site ;) who are quite accomplished measuring the pitch with a micrometer while in the holder. Aftondad's approach may be a bit more accurate, but the bottom line is that we've both established, independently with accomplished skate tech guys that the ES4 is definitely pitched out of the box. To Aftondad's point, my ES4 replacement steel from Easton had a similar (~ +1) pitch out of the box. To your final point, your observations are very much like my feelings. That being said, the Makos fit so well out of the box for me (with a caveat below), combined with the fact that I bought into the "hype" about it was a better approach to skating, that I ignored the "bad" feelings I had about skating and just thought I needed to adapt. I think I probably have adapted somewhat and who knows, it may have helped. But there is no doubt that even after skating a lot on the Makos for 2 years, after neutralizing the pitch of the runner, I am skating much, much better. Bear in mind that even with a neutral runner, it's still a pretty aggressive skate, with ~ +2 on the holder alone. *one other thing I would note regarding your observation: I got some achilles pain initially from the Mako. I thought it was a normal break in pain, so, let it go. It got very bad though and I now have "scarred" achilles. (It got to the point I couldn't skate for a while). If you feel the achilles pain is from the boot rather than the pitch, you might want to try punching out that area where the tendon guard meets the boot. That was what caused the issue for me and once I punched it out it was much better. I left it too long though, so, you might want to address it.

Well, I actually have shims in the one skate with the negative pitch... (long story). Two things. 1) To me, the profile is the better way to go than the shim. If you have a good profiler, it's a straightforward process and less disturbance to the "hard good" of the boot. That being said, I've put T-nuts in mine so, I can add/remove shims at will without consequence to the boot. If the shim is due to anthropetric issues that will be permanent, then that's probably a better way to go, so, you can just use stock steel. Most guys get things profiled anyway, but often a profiler thinks he knows better than the skater and you don't get what you actually ask for. Lots of profilers have this secret approach that only they use that is the best thing since sliced bread for everybody no matter what the circumstance. Again, in that case, the shim would be the way to go. 2) The ES4 steel has a stock +1 pitch and the holder is +2. The result is a +3. This is well documented and discussed. I've seen it when a skate guy pulled my new steel out skeptical that the steel had a pitch and voila.... it did. So, not sure who you talked to, but he was wrong. All the above being said, if you're comfy in the Tuuk, then yes, that may be the simplest way to go. The Easton steel is good, but the real value in the Mako is the boot, so, if you have a pitch/profile you like and are comfy with, maybe just stick with it. That being said, I came from Supremes, so, Tuuks, and in the current carnation, with a ~ (+2) pitch, I'm a pretty happy camper. I may still go back one notch to see what it's like though. Hard to imagine it would be any better.

Coincidentally, I did just that. I've been in Makos for abour 2 years, since the week they came out. I love them, and thought I had adjusted to the pitch, but kept feeling that when I stopped, battling for pucks or coasting and doing fakes, I was falling forward. So, two weeks ago, I had my local guy go to a neutral pitch on the runner (from the stock +1). Holy Cow!!!! It was amazing. Night and day difference in my skating. I felt like I was on rails in turns as opposed to blowing out the heel all the time. Definitely more stable when standing, battling and skating backwards. Every aspect of my game has been better. I think I was so unbalanced, that I was playing with my head down all the time, because now, I am seeing more things at speed and definitely more stable when stopped. A couple guys have commented that I am playing like a different player,.. better hockey IQ. I wouldn't have quessed the difference would have been so substantial with just that small change when the Mako is (+3) with runner and holder. This is a very odd thing, but I will make note for those who may have a similar issue. My right foot/skate is much different in the way it interacts with the ice than the left. One manifestation of this is that I always felt I was in "high heels" on my right skate. Even after the neutral profile, I felt this in the right skate. So, after neutralizing the pitch made such a dramatic difference in my skating, I asked the guy to go (-1) on my right skate. So, now I have a neutral left runner and -1 pitch on my right runner. Again, much better skating. As I write this, I just finished a drop in that was my 3rd skate on this unique set up and it was awesome. Right now, I'm skating dramatically better than at any time I've had the Makos and likely before that. My point is, foot/skate alignment is a very unique thing, so, don't assume what works for one person will work for you... even even one foot vs the other. Some guys love the super aggressive pitch of the Makos, but I clearly never adapted even after 2 yr of skating 4-8 times/week. Of course, YMMV.

So, was this with the Bauer holders? Shims, or standard pitch?

You are correct. I was thinking of the holder only, knowing that the LS4 runner is ~+1, but forgetting he would be using the Edge runners. So, 3/32 would be closer the Mako set up than 1/16. Regarding the shims, yes, you are also correct. I added the t-nuts on mine specifically to shim laterally as opposed to vertically, but the same principle applies and I can add/remove shims before each ice session in a matter of a few minutes. Can even do it within a game if need be, if I overdid the shims beforehand. Very nice system for tweaking the set up.