smcgreg

I do. In fact, I have 55 flex on mine and still leave the top undone. I even tried the top 2 undone, but that was a bit too much. I came from Tones always leaving the top 2 undone. I should say though, that I've backed off the aggressive pitch on mine. I think if you give enough flex at the ankle, you don't need the aggressive pitch to "force" you into a good skating position. If you have the fore/aft flex at the ankles, you can get the ankle/knee bend on a more neutral pitch. With the aggressive pitch, I always felt unstable when battling on the boards or really doing anything where I wasn't moving at speed. My 2 cents.

Hi SMU, I think we've corresponded on this topic before. To address your point about not having flat feet, but still "pronating" in skates, I have a similar situation. I actually have fairly high arches in both feet, but only "pronate" in the right skate. After a fair bit of work on the skates and evaluating myself, the source of my issue has been a progressive valgus (knock kneed) evolution of my right leg with age. Because my right knee bends medially (toward the middle) it causes my center of mass to be over the inside of the skate versus the left side, which is not valgus. Further, it is exacerbated when I bend my knees. My point is, you may not have flat feet or even "pronate" in shoes, but due to other anthropometric changes with age, your center of mass may have changed over the years relative to the skate blade. I've tried many of the things you have, and most recently, I've placed about 3 mm of shimms on the outside/lateral part of the skate between the boot and holder. This has effectively raised the right skate so much that I have had to go with two different pitches on my Mako IIs. I have a (-1 profile) on the left and a (-3 profile) on the right. So, one thing to think about is if you are shimming, that may be throwing off your balance between sides apart from the "pronation" issue. (I put pronation in quotes, because in my case, it's really not pronation, but results in the same effect). To get back to the blade alignment issue, I have the same problem in my Mako IIs. I have put in T-nuts so, I can easily shim or remove and was planning to use them to facilitate moving the blade medially (toward the center line), but there just isn't enough room on the boot to drill new holes and move the holder. So, trying to think about different skates now that may allow me to do so. I love the fit of the Mako though, so, it would be tough to change, but I am very sick of not being over my blade on one foot, when things are perfect on the other. I'll keep you posted on anything I come up with. Please do the same.

I had 6.5D in the original and got a 6.5 D in warranty replacement. They fit exactly the same.

Ummm... I'm not sure about this. I don't think the Makos can be stretched. One of the gurus like JR or Jimmy might be able to chime in on this, but I'd hate to get them too small and not be able to stretch them. On all other points I agree though. Baked mine several times and used the heat gun further. Very moldable skates. In fact, initially when I had a couple local hot spots and contacted Scott at VH about custom skates, he actually encouraged me to "fiddle" with my Makos since they are so moldable. To me, that is a testament to Scott and his character, but also a comment on the level of moldability of the Makos. Anyway, before buying small, I'd confirm the stretchability.

I wouldn't expec the Mako 8 to fit differently than the Mako II, but have no experience with the 8. That being said, sounds like 6.5 D is the way to go to me. A bit of room in the 6.5 and toe cramped in 6.0. Not sure what else there is to say. I suppose if the 6Ds weren't baked all the way, they might open up a bit more. Not sure why they wouldn't bake them all the way though. that's the selling point. Sorry I don't have more to offer.

Did you have them baked? When baked, the heel will open up and give you more room in the toe. I came from Supremes, 6.5 E (custom) since my foot is too wide for D and too narrow for EE. I wear Mako 6.5 D. I'm guessing you are probably a 6.5 D in the mako and if you have them baked when you try them, they will be perfect. When I was trying them on, I couldn't get my foot into the 6.5 or 7 until they were baked. The 7.5 felt good unbaked, but the salesguy was good in suggesting the bake and that they would open up. I know some shops aren't good about baking when trying on, but they open up sooooo much, you need to bake them to know.

I know you weren't replying to me, but I agree on this. As I indicated earlier, if profiling/sharpener consistency wasn't an issue/concern, profiling is probably the better approach. Some problems can't be fixed by profiling (e.g. pronation), though, so, sometimes shims are the only approach aside from boot surgery.

I did the T-nuts in collaboration with the guy who works on my skates at my local Total Hockey. I got the idea from various threads on this site that discuss the t-nut approach. The only thing I needed help with was pulling the rivets, once that was done, the t-nuts are cake. I picked mine up (the t-nuts and screws) from Home depot. After doing that, I use thin cutting board material (HDPE) for shims and can add/remove as desired. Ultimately, I want to move my holder in (medially) on one skate, but leaving that until the last and probably until Makos are on clearance, so, if I muck it up I can pick up a replacement cheap. For now, I'm close to the way I want things, but that holder needs to be moved on one skate. How I measured it was by watching the two skate guys (one of whom you may "know" from this site ;) who are quite accomplished measuring the pitch with a micrometer while in the holder. Aftondad's approach may be a bit more accurate, but the bottom line is that we've both established, independently with accomplished skate tech guys that the ES4 is definitely pitched out of the box. To Aftondad's point, my ES4 replacement steel from Easton had a similar (~ +1) pitch out of the box. To your final point, your observations are very much like my feelings. That being said, the Makos fit so well out of the box for me (with a caveat below), combined with the fact that I bought into the "hype" about it was a better approach to skating, that I ignored the "bad" feelings I had about skating and just thought I needed to adapt. I think I probably have adapted somewhat and who knows, it may have helped. But there is no doubt that even after skating a lot on the Makos for 2 years, after neutralizing the pitch of the runner, I am skating much, much better. Bear in mind that even with a neutral runner, it's still a pretty aggressive skate, with ~ +2 on the holder alone. *one other thing I would note regarding your observation: I got some achilles pain initially from the Mako. I thought it was a normal break in pain, so, let it go. It got very bad though and I now have "scarred" achilles. (It got to the point I couldn't skate for a while). If you feel the achilles pain is from the boot rather than the pitch, you might want to try punching out that area where the tendon guard meets the boot. That was what caused the issue for me and once I punched it out it was much better. I left it too long though, so, you might want to address it.

Well, I actually have shims in the one skate with the negative pitch... (long story). Two things. 1) To me, the profile is the better way to go than the shim. If you have a good profiler, it's a straightforward process and less disturbance to the "hard good" of the boot. That being said, I've put T-nuts in mine so, I can add/remove shims at will without consequence to the boot. If the shim is due to anthropetric issues that will be permanent, then that's probably a better way to go, so, you can just use stock steel. Most guys get things profiled anyway, but often a profiler thinks he knows better than the skater and you don't get what you actually ask for. Lots of profilers have this secret approach that only they use that is the best thing since sliced bread for everybody no matter what the circumstance. Again, in that case, the shim would be the way to go. 2) The ES4 steel has a stock +1 pitch and the holder is +2. The result is a +3. This is well documented and discussed. I've seen it when a skate guy pulled my new steel out skeptical that the steel had a pitch and voila.... it did. So, not sure who you talked to, but he was wrong. All the above being said, if you're comfy in the Tuuk, then yes, that may be the simplest way to go. The Easton steel is good, but the real value in the Mako is the boot, so, if you have a pitch/profile you like and are comfy with, maybe just stick with it. That being said, I came from Supremes, so, Tuuks, and in the current carnation, with a ~ (+2) pitch, I'm a pretty happy camper. I may still go back one notch to see what it's like though. Hard to imagine it would be any better.

Coincidentally, I did just that. I've been in Makos for abour 2 years, since the week they came out. I love them, and thought I had adjusted to the pitch, but kept feeling that when I stopped, battling for pucks or coasting and doing fakes, I was falling forward. So, two weeks ago, I had my local guy go to a neutral pitch on the runner (from the stock +1). Holy Cow!!!! It was amazing. Night and day difference in my skating. I felt like I was on rails in turns as opposed to blowing out the heel all the time. Definitely more stable when standing, battling and skating backwards. Every aspect of my game has been better. I think I was so unbalanced, that I was playing with my head down all the time, because now, I am seeing more things at speed and definitely more stable when stopped. A couple guys have commented that I am playing like a different player,.. better hockey IQ. I wouldn't have quessed the difference would have been so substantial with just that small change when the Mako is (+3) with runner and holder. This is a very odd thing, but I will make note for those who may have a similar issue. My right foot/skate is much different in the way it interacts with the ice than the left. One manifestation of this is that I always felt I was in "high heels" on my right skate. Even after the neutral profile, I felt this in the right skate. So, after neutralizing the pitch made such a dramatic difference in my skating, I asked the guy to go (-1) on my right skate. So, now I have a neutral left runner and -1 pitch on my right runner. Again, much better skating. As I write this, I just finished a drop in that was my 3rd skate on this unique set up and it was awesome. Right now, I'm skating dramatically better than at any time I've had the Makos and likely before that. My point is, foot/skate alignment is a very unique thing, so, don't assume what works for one person will work for you... even even one foot vs the other. Some guys love the super aggressive pitch of the Makos, but I clearly never adapted even after 2 yr of skating 4-8 times/week. Of course, YMMV.

So, was this with the Bauer holders? Shims, or standard pitch?

You are correct. I was thinking of the holder only, knowing that the LS4 runner is ~+1, but forgetting he would be using the Edge runners. So, 3/32 would be closer the Mako set up than 1/16. Regarding the shims, yes, you are also correct. I added the t-nuts on mine specifically to shim laterally as opposed to vertically, but the same principle applies and I can add/remove shims before each ice session in a matter of a few minutes. Can even do it within a game if need be, if I overdid the shims beforehand. Very nice system for tweaking the set up.

The holder alone on the Makos is a +2, I believe. I think (emphasis added for clarity) the LS is neutral. So, you would probably need 2/32 or 1/16. Maybe one of the profiler gurus can chime in, but that would be my guess.

Ahh.. got it. I did it to faclititate adding and removing shims. Works quite nicely.

3 hr?? OK, maybe you were a bit more particular about it than I was. It took me maybe 20 min, but then again, I only did 8 per skate. The equipment guy at TH I work with on these things figure 4 each per tower was good enough for Graf, so, it should work if secured properly. Now that I've been skating on them a couple weeks and am confident in the way I have things, I will probably add more bolts as redundant safety mechanism. If I may ask, why did you go the t-bolt route? Just to address the loose rivet issue?

My son started getting Haglund's and we got a pair of these http://www.ezeefitsports.com/category-s/1827.htm The Haglund's haven't gotten worse since. In his case, I think they probably started when he was in Supremes that had a heel pocket that was too big for him. We moved him into Vapors and added the booties a few weeks later. Just a thought.

Since I've been messing with my Makos and Mako IIs, I've gone the t-nut route. I actually have screws that stick up past the sole a good 1/4 inch and I don't feel them through the CCM footbed. So, I can't imagine the t-nut base plate would bother anyone. I've ordered shorter screws and once I have those in there won't be an issue at all, potential or otherwise. This really is a great approach for people who want to try and tweak their skates though. After pulling rivets twice to put in shims, I was getting concerned about doing more. Now I don't have to worry about it. They will likely rust, but so do the stock rivets that I had. The copper rivets that were used when I put the shims in came lose within a couple weeks.

Thanks to you and Larry54. Guess I'll give it a shot.

Did you (or anyone else for that matter) actually do this? I want to pursue this option, but would like to hear from those who have had success, or lack thereof.

As Anko just posted and I have previously in this thread, the difference between a Mako and stock Supreme should be about +4 in Pitch (+3 combined from steel and holder on Mako and -1 on Supreme), so, you still have a way to go. I agree about heel lifts. I did that with my son in his Supremes to get him more pitch and it worked nicely. I definitely wouldn't shave the toe. I've done that on purpose in the past and inadvertently through a plethora of sharpenings and it causes trouble.

When I pushed out the back at that spot you're referring to, I actually did use c-clamps and make shift metal punch. Definitely more complicated than the side, but it did work. I believe I heated it and left it in the c-clamps over night as opposed to going to the freezer. Good luck.

Actually, as Syinx states, you can change the shape of the boot like that. For example, in my case, I used a heat gun to heat the area below the inside ankle and simply pushed in a bit with my gloved hands. Didn't take much at all and it really changed the shape of the boot. Once I had the shape I thought I wanted after 5 min, I threw them in the freezer and voila! Granted, at the end of the day I didn't get the performance effect I was looking for, but I was able to mold exactly the way I wanted with minimal effort. For spot types of applications though, as it sounds like you're trying, a heat gun will probably work better than a general bake. When I originally posted, I didnt' realize you had already baked twice. So, I have another anecdote that is likely applicable (I have a bunch of them for Makos). The story I cited above was with my new Mako IIs. In my original Makos, when I baked them, I leaned forward too much and the tendon guard/boot upper junction cut in too much. It was so bad, at one point I couldn't stand up in the skates. So, I took my handy dandy heat gun and heated that area and pushed it out. It's a trickier area than the part inside, below the ankle though that I addressed in my Mako IIs, so, it was more work, but I was able to do it. Sounds like that's the area that's bothering you too? Back of the skate where the tendon guard joins the boot? It sounds like Syinx hit it on the head. Watch the video (Mako or MLX) and they pinch the heel on both the outside and inside for better heal lock and the effect should be to change the shape around the tendon, I expect.

I've had a similar issue on my right skate because I've "punched in" the inside of the heel a bit (below the ankle bone) to push my foot farther outside (long story). Anyway, when I did this, my heel didn't "sit in the pocket as well" (for lack of better phrasing). Also, that seemed to great more space around the top of the boot at the top two eyelets. The end result was pretty much the same thing you described. So, I rebaked to open the heel back up (get rid of the punch in) and get the heel to sit better in the pocket. As a result, both of the problems were solved both in the lower part of boot, below the ankle and at the top around the top eyelet. Make sense?

Maybe try rebaking that one. You may need it to open up more lower, or wrap a bit better up top. Worth a try.

I'm sure one of the gurus generally knowledgable about such things will chime in and correct me, but that was my understanding, negative pitch for total ones.