Big changes?

[Project824 0]

Hey there, new to the site, sorry to chime in a little late. Don't have any "insider" details on Warrior/Innovative's situation but I do have a little bit of history on Warrior.

Dave Morrow, founder of Warrior is from the Detroit area. He originally went to Princeton University to play hockey for the Tigers (decent player by the way) but for various reasons ended up quitting the hockey team and playing lacrosse (Princeton has been one of the better DI lacrosse programs in the NCAA for some time). Before Warrior's emergence in the 90's, lacrosse equipment was much like hockey equipment through the late 80's - very traditional, without much innovation and without much flair. Warrior changed all of that, and I noticed that much of their lacrosse equipment was actually based on many designs you saw in hockey equipment. The company singlehandedly opened the door for many new equipment manufacturers and forced the original two companies (Brine and STX) to rethink the way they designed products.

So you see Warrior's founder comes from a hockey background. The company has shown a willingness to use new materials and innovative design in their products. BUT, in lacrosse they entered a market with 2 major manufacturers and market entry was fairly easy and far less competitive than an already saturated hockey market. Acquiring Innovative will give them credibility, but I personally think it will be hard for Warrior to make much of an impact in a highly competitive and fast paced hockey market. In lacrosse they were the market leader for innovation and design. In hockey they will enter the market playing catch up to at least three major players that are already in full sprint.

[The TRUTH 0]

Are You aware of the recently filed law suit? I read an article in the Boston Herald recently.Evidently the guys that left took some papers that were trade secrets and the one guy, who put the deal together, was sitting in on easton meetings to buy inno and was just passing the info along to warrior. Kinda like spying.

The Herald said something like 100 files were copied and sent to the guys private email addresses the day before they resigned. It said they included business information and manufacturing designs for some new easton stuffin development.

It also said it was filed in Federal Court in Michigan. Sounds pretty serious. Anyone else see the story?

What happened to building a company the old fashioned way? Hire ethical people, have unique ideas, work hard, make quality products, make a littlemoney and have fun doing it.

It is very sad to read.

[Chadd 916]

Are You aware of the recently filed law suit? I read an article in the Boston Herald recently.Evidently the guys that left took some papers that were trade secrets and the one guy, who put the deal together, was sitting in on easton meetings to buy inno and was just passing the info along to warrior. Kinda like spying.

The Herald said something like 100 files were copied and sent to the guys private email addresses the day before they resigned. It said they included business information and manufacturing designs for some new easton stuffin development.

It also said it was filed in Federal Court in Michigan. Sounds pretty serious. Anyone else see the story?

What happened to building a company the old fashioned way? Hire ethical people, have unique ideas, work hard, make quality products, make a littlemoney and have fun doing it.

It is very sad to read.

You mean the link to the story that was posted on the previous page?

That type of thing happens all of the time in the business world. What I don't understand is why he would have waited until the last day to do all of the copying. It would have been far less obvious to copy them one or two at a time. Not to mention the fact I would imagine that much of the information could have been memorized as well.

This could be a long and bitter feud between the two companies and I wouldn't be surprised if Easton sues them over any product that remotely looks like an Easton product.

[hersheybears35 0]

If it's the end of Innovative, that was a great run for them and that make me kind of sad

I`d echo those sentiments, it`s sad to see a good company whose products you use go by the wayside. I haven`t been this bummed since Bauer took over Cooper. Others: Bending Branches, Canadien, Roos, Micron, Christian ( I know, they are still going, but they are never going to have the market they did when EVERYBODY used a Christian blade ).

[Drewhunz 3]

This could be a long and bitter feud between the two companies and I wouldn't be surprised if Easton sues them over any product that remotely looks like an Easton product.

In that case, Warrior/New Balance should focus on making a few GOOD products (a la Mission) instead of a bunch of mediocre products (a la Easton). That would be a nice switch.

[jimmy 194]

This could be a long and bitter feud between the two companies and I wouldn't be surprised if Easton sues them over any product that remotely looks like an Easton product.

In that case, Warrior/New Balance should focus on making a few GOOD products (a la Mission) instead of a bunch of mediocre products (a la Easton). That would be a nice switch.

yup, you hit it right on the nail, make a few good products and they'll do OK. Try to make a full line of chinese imports and they'll just be another Hespeler or D&R type share of the market.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

So, any company that makes all of their stuff in China sucks? CHeck your labels - that would be EVERY COMPANY.

Why don't you guys get it? All companies outsource overseas. It's that simple.

[jimmy 194]

So, any company that makes all of their stuff in China sucks? CHeck your labels - that would be EVERY COMPANY.

Why don't you guys get it? All companies outsource overseas. It's that simple.

I'm fully aware most stuff is made overseas, but you missed the point. Not all Chinese manufacturers are bad. Companies can choose the level of quality they want their product produced at, be it top quality or cheap. If Warrior goes for a high quality outsource, they will not have a problem competing.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

"A full line of Chinese imports" is a pretty vague statement. Kinda hard to see a point when you are lumping everyone together.

A lot of companies share the same manufacturing plant in China - they'll be making, let's say, Easton in one room and Mission in the other. The difference is the specs. If a company calls for a lower-quality material to be used, it will be made with that material.

[jimmy 194]

"A full line of Chinese imports" is a pretty vague statement. Kinda hard to see a point when you are lumping everyone together.

A lot of companies share the same manufacturing plant in China - they'll be making, let's say, Easton in one room and Mission in the other. The difference is the specs. If a company calls for a lower-quality material to be used, it will be made with that material.

yea, that's what I meant, if they choose the lower spec/quality, they won't do too well, ala hespeler, etc.

[Chadd 916]

"A full line of Chinese imports" is a pretty vague statement. Kinda hard to see a point when you are lumping everyone together.

A lot of companies share the same manufacturing plant in China - they'll be making, let's say, Easton in one room and Mission in the other.  The difference is the specs.  If a company calls for a lower-quality material to be used, it will be made with that material.

yea, that's what I meant, if they choose the lower spec/quality, they won't do too well, ala hespeler, etc.

Hespeler's problems weren't with the equipment it was the problems that were created after they wwere bought out by Huffy.

Quality control is the key, no matter where the factory is located.

[warrior37 0]

any news on the NB/Warrior ice hockey stuff?

[sherwood21 0]

In THN a week ago with all the wifeys they had a picture of Blakes wife holding a warrior stick. So it must be going down already.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

New balance bought Warrior and then Inno from what I heard(don'T know if it has been discussed) so why isn't it a New balance stick instead of a warrior in The hockey news.

[Chadd 916]

New balance bought Warrior and then Inno from what I heard(don'T know if it has been discussed) so why isn't it a New balance stick instead of a warrior in The hockey news.

They figured out that Warrior has a better chance of selling as a hockey brand than New Balance. Kids don't buy NB products.

[#96 0]

Chadd, lotsa kids around here have NB sneakers. They are pretty popular now actually. The trail and running shoes specifically. But you're probably right. That brand name in hockey probably wouldn't sell well. Not when compared to established names like the other guys.

[Chadd 916]

Chadd, lotsa kids around here have NB sneakers. They are pretty popular now actually. The trail and running shoes specifically. But you're probably right. That brand name in hockey probably wouldn't sell well. Not when compared to established names like the other guys.

Around here it's middle aged parents and the kids that are too young to have a say in the shoes they wear. It's most popular with baby-boomers. Their average customer age is much higher than any of the other top 3 or 4 shoe companies.

[sherwood21 0]

NB 574 shoes are really nice, lots of people have them, but that's about it as far as casual shoes go. Maybe for running/training but people don't wear those around town

Anyway, I think Warrior as a hockey name sounds sort of cliche but that's just me..I wish they stuck with plain old Inno

[kovalchuk71 212]

All of the 12-21 year olds hear wear the 574's...Theyre the "cool" thing

[DarkStar50 679]

Sorry that I am a bit late to this thread but......

If warrior wants to throw away money in the hockey business, they can throw it at me. As a Hockey equipment buyer since 1980, I have seen them come and I have seen them go. The very last thing the industry, not the consumers, need is another player in the market trying to get shelf space in my pro shop. Warrior should go talk to Mission, Itech, Louisville, whoever is left at Hespeler, Vic, Rawlings, Koho, and the rest of the walking wounded. The distance between the top three- BNH, THC, and Easton, and the second tier vendors is getting greater everyday. Mistech couldn't even get their product into the marketplace this spring so they have effectively shot themselves in the foot. Why spend buying/booking $ with them? Louisville has their group calling and pleading for $ to spend on their product. The rep showed up in April, a bit late. And frankly, Easton is not everything that they think they are. Their delivery never meets their promises and their in season inventory for fill-in is non-existent. Guess that leaves BNH and THC to clean up and kick butt in the industry.

Now, Warrior/NB thinks this is a viable marketplace with return on investment. What color is the sky in their world? Lucky for them their new product wasn't being shipped spring 2004 because nobody would know Warrior from whatever. Hockey product sells by exposure in the NHL. Kids see it and they will run to the LHS for the latest and greatest. Half my customers in the pro shop this spring didn't have a clue when they saw RBK on sticks, pads, and goalie gear. The lockout kept the exposure of RBK to zero. I hope Warrior is ready to spend tons of $ to make $ because this is not LX. This is an industry that inadvertently tries to kill itself every year but the loyal hockey die-hard keeps it going. And this spring with no NHL play-offs on TV, we just lost a whole crop of future hockey players who start in clinic and learn-to-play. Registration numbers for hockey are not exactly jumping off the charts.

I get the vibe that everyone is excited about Warrior making exciting ,new equipment. That sounds great. I was in Ste. Jerome last month at BNH looking at production of custom skates, plant facilities and RD & D. It takes a huge commitment to get your idea from paper to the ice. BNH is there and moving forward. You can trash the word Nike but you must have respected them at some point that now you don't "like" them. BNH does make product that works for the player. Warrior will need more than three Easton guys to get up and running in a strong way. It is not about getting to the starting line. It is about getting to the finish line.

I will watch closely as Warrior gets into the game. LX and hockey are not as similar as they may think.

[Chadd 916]

DarkStar50:

Your comments make no sense. You say that most of the companies in the hockey market have major fulfillment problems or are poorly managed, yet you don't think that leaves the door open for someone to come in and do it right?

[#96 0]

Yeah I'm not too sure about the point, other than being a complete gripe. But I think he's talking in terms of the established companies having a hard enough time succeeding, interest in hockey is waay down, NHL not being around kinda hurt sales for new products this year, and that basically 3 major companies have most of the market share...that a new company breaking in and succeeding has very little chance. I have to kinda agree.

But, As Chadd said, there is obviously a door for a new company to come in with fresh ideas and do it right. And they very well could. Inno makes a good product, so NB/Warrior made a good move in my book. But I have to lean towards Darkstar. Mission (Mistech? Haha) makes EXCELLENT products. I have not had any major problems, and when something did come up Customer Service has been superb (thanks Justin). But they are having a hard time getting on shelves and getting a good chunk of the market share. *Disclaimer-I do believe Justin cited new warehouses and some position juggling as to why Mission missed its target dates.* So I think that is what Darkstare is trying to insuate. A good company, with good ideas, good product, has little chance at succeeding in these hockey-troubled times.

[jrwarrior16 0]

i dont know if anyone has posted this link but it shows how inno will operate as a new line called warrior hockey

http://www.insidelacrosse.com/page.cfm?pag...l&storyid=95696

[Jason Harris 31]

Darkstar, I don't think it is as bleak as you make it out to be.

Besides my own products, I've met a number of companies at the tradeshows who have quality products at good prices and, if a theme developed among us, it's that we know it's ALL about customer service. I believe that is in contrast to the larger companies who know you will stock their products regardless.

Now, that does not to ease the concern that your customers might not try new products, so we're all aware we have to be creative in getting our products into the hands of players. One example of that is with my friend's product, Oggie Grip. Guys on my team snickered about it because it was so radical, so I handed my stick to them during warm-ups. Everybody who tried it wanted one, and they all admitted they thought the idea was hokey.

So, if the smaller companies can use creativity to get their products into the players, which helps protect the investment of the retailer, then I think they can thrive in this industry, because the definition of "thriving' is different for each company.

[DarkStar50 679]

Chadd

In my post, I stated that Mistech had distribution problems this spring, not "most of the companies in the hockey market." I know they moved their warehouse/distribution to Plattsburgh, NY and had major problems. My point is that if a shop has booked $50K with Mistech and is then promising their customers for weeks on end that the delivery is anyday now, the shop looks like idiots and the buyer is screwed. These problems happen, they have happened before in this industry, and will probably happen again. It is just experience and instinct that helps the buyer decide which vendor gets his open-to-buy $. Easton will always have the same problems: promise March delivery on product booked in January, ship mid April instead. I am still waiting on gloves from that January booking. If they weren't travel team colors, I would have cancelled them along with the rest of the product they couldn't deliver by June 1. I never count on Easton for fill-in product in season. It is not a gripe, its a manner of doing business. They are not primarily a hockey company. They have their fingers in so many different pies that it is obvious whether they are truly committed to hockey as a primary division in their company. I know they have been around in the industry since the late 70's with aluminum shafts. Certainly by now, they could have ironed out alot of the same problems that happen every year. And this is not a "gripe" session. How they do business is their business.

Chadd, the door is wide open for a new company. Warrior can march right in. I welcome a new player, as long they have deep pockets and are ready to "pay their dues." This is one business where you will never know everything because every year it is something new. I was one of Mission's first East Coast accounts in the mid 90's. Their entry into roller hockey was perfect: new ideas, new product, and so many "what took so long, that idea was obvious." But as time went on they tried to do too much. Remember Amp skates and their horrible holder and blade? Please lets not revisit those years again. But can anyone say L7 or S500? Save your time and money and do what you do best. Don't try to do everything. If Warrior has a sound business model, go for it!

Chadd, please let me know what doesn't make sense to you. I would be glad to share ideas and explain anything that doesn't add up. The part about "doing it right" just isn't as easy as it sounds. That is just my feeling because I have seen so many try to do it right and blow it. Warrior can definitely be a player in the stick industry. I truly wish them well.

96,

Sorry my post sounded like a gripe! You actually did get the point. This will be a tough market for Warrior to crack. But Holmes knows alot and has been around. It is important to get the right people in place for your company. That being said, this industry plays "Musical Chairs" like no other. Where else can a product guy go from one major player to the other to the other? Where else can one national sales guy go from one major player to the other to the other? Right here in hockey! Amazing but true. This industry is a small circle when you study it. And the wheel is turning but you can't slow it down.

I am glad to hear that Justin solved your Mistech problems. Yes, SalmingUSA, having customer service people on the vendor side makes a huge difference in where a buyer spends his open-to-buy $. When these people do there job and come through you will always come back to them.

SalmingUSA,

I really do not think things are all that "bleak." They are pretty lousy, though, that's for sure. I have been through the years of hockey catalog wars with customers and now its the internet. As long I have the right product, a sales staff that knows the product and knows how to put the right item on that particular customer, and excellent customer relations, my shop will succeed. I didn't throw that post up to bring anybody down. I just wanted everyone to think a little bit. This business is not as easy opening the lemonade stand on the corner on that hot August day. Like I said, "you've got to pay your dues" and some cost more than others.