Maybe there is something to Easton's methodology

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

OK, damndest thing - my Vector ops broke (no, that isn't weird - sticks break). It was how/where it broke. It had simply broken in some sort of smashed/fatique fashion all the way around the diameter of the shaft in one specific location. It didn't crack - per say - it had just splintered and softened so I could bend it back and forth and (eventually) just tear it off with minimal effort.

What was interesting was the inside of the Vector ops (by the way - they are TRUE one pieces near as I can tell. No fusing of a seperate/independent blade an hosel at least). First off, it's lined with a thin plastic - like a bag I guess. Next, the layers of graphite are laid out in different directions. I would guess this is to make it stiffer (similar to the concept behind pre-pegging).

Finally, (and this is where the thread title comes in), the layers of graphite are not even. I.E., the diameters of the wall are not consistant. I cut a little section here and there (as I was making a shaft out of the thing) and the walls are uneven. What's odd about this is how the early Vector commercials talked about how their stick didn't have the rotation problem some had. Meaning, the kind of thing where either the shaft twists due to torque or the blade opens up causing the shot to go awry from where your wrists are pointing. In some places, one corner or side was as much as 4 times thicker than the section across from it.

This reminded me of one of Easton's adds from a while back. They talked about their process where all their sheets of graphite are thinly made and smoothed ON BOTH SIDES to make a uniform thickness. The ad had a cross section of their stick (smooth) and someone else's stick (where you could see it was uneven or bumpy). I have to question how consistant performance can be when flexing in different areas of the stick or just from stick to stick itself if it is not uniform in this fashion.

Anyways, just figured I'd share and see if that opened up for any interesting conversation. It' should at least be better than the talk on the Easton boards where the most stimilating intellectual conversations of the day is why one poster is gay or what the best color for a stick is.......

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Vector is NOT a true OPS. It is made like a wood stick.

I don't understand what you are trying to go with this. The correlation between the way the graphite is layered vs pre-preg doesn't match.

We already know Vector is a sloppy stick.

You're reaching.

[Cavs019 710]

Whatever happened to the days of picking up a stick that felt good and just playing with it? Ogie I myself am very intrigued by the science aspect of hockey equipment, but sometimes we go a little too far.

[vivaotravez12 0]

I found that out the other day when I tried to make a shaft out of the broken OPS. Kept trying to skim a little off thinking it would taper off eventually, but I ended up with a shaft too short for a midget, and still had the weird insides.

[Jason Harris 31]

I'm not sure I agree with you, Ogie. Having seen the inside of our sticks and knowing how they are produced, what you've written about the Vector sounds similar to how our G1 is made.

The composite for the G1 is blown down a tube to form its shape. Without a doubt, the outside of the shaft is far better formed than the TF1, for which they roll the composite on a table around a tool(?). The G1's shaft is noticeably more concave than the TF1, which makes sense to me since it can't expand past the shape of the tube.

However, the composite appears to be thicker at the corners than in the middle on the G1. I don't whether I'm correct, but I suspect there are actually two tubes while making the G1; otherwise, all the mix would sink to the bottom of the tube. So, the differing thicknesses could just be the contours of the tube used in production. Last, I'm also not sure about this, but I think the thin membrane of plastic could be kevlar.

So, why do I not agree with your theory? Because I've noticed more consistency on the G1's, and believe them to be better made, although I've had conversations with Chadd and my Canadian distributor and they both think the TF1 is better produced. Having said that, IF the Vector was produced similarly to the G1, by being blown down a tube, I think it's a sign of more consistent production.

The breakage could be attributed to a less desirable mix of composite versus fibreglass, or maybe even less desirable placement of the flexpoint.

[Edge 0]

Though I'm not a big fan of how the Vector sticks are made, it really shouldn't have much afftect of the durability of the stick compared to other OPS. I've seen more Vector blades break than Easton, TPS, Bauer type blades(foam material inside) compared to the ABS CCM but that has to do with the blade, not shaft construction.

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

Vector is NOT a true OPS. It is made like a wood stick.

"Made like a wood stick" - define that? You mean the blade is made seperately, I guess, and then some sort of laquered fiberglass is used to connect the two?

Regardless, it's not a fused stick similar to that of the Synnergy (independent shaft and independent full blade (hosel and all) welded together). BUT, I agree that it is not vacuum formed all at once.

The correlation between the way the graphite is layered vs pre-preg doesn't match.

Regardless, my commentary was not of the pre-peg (just mentioned that the grain was layered in different directions). Wondered if they did that based on the same concept (that cross graining would, theoretically, make it stronger).

We already know Vector is a sloppy stick.

What the true point was more of that the inside of the stick is (to use your expression) sloppy. It's not layered evenly. Seems to me you can't get consistant, even, and fluid performance if it varies like that. That being said, I'm, apparently, to dumb or too ill refined to notice the difference, as one of the things I liked about the stick was it's uniform flex throughout the shaft.

Regardless, Easton had an ad that said that their sticks were superior engineering wise because the walls were a uniform thickness throughout and the cross section displayed was a bit rough, uneven, and ugly.

You're reaching.

Reaching to hold your hand, you big, agreeable, affable lug you!

(j/k)

Whatever happened to the days of picking up a stick that felt good and just playing with it?  Ogie I myself am very intrigued by the science aspect of hockey equipment, but sometimes we go a little too far.

It was broken (from the blade down) so figured I'd try to convert it to a shaft. Seems to make some sense. While doing it, I made those observations.

I found that out the other day when I tried to make a shaft out of the broken OPS. Kept trying to skim a little off thinking it would taper off eventually, but I ended up with a shaft too short for a midget, and still had the weird insides.

Yeah, quite similar to what I noted. Which brand/make?

the composite appears to be thicker at the corners than in the middle on the G1

It's not just the corners though, it's the walls themselves in some places. When the wall itself is not as thick on one side as the other, wouldn't you figure its flex properties would be different in those areas?

So, the differing thicknesses could just be the contours of the tube used in production

Could be.

Last, I'm also not sure about this, but I think the thin membrane of plastic could be kevlar

That was the thought of my buddy when he saw it.

The breakage could be attributed to a less desirable mix of composite versus fibreglass, or maybe even less desirable placement of the flexpoint.

The breakage was weird, but not really worth concern. I don't know how it happened, and it seemed to happen suddenly (I had been playing with it, period ended, leaned on it and it flopped around - strange. Normally you remember the "one that did it". I did remember only after the fact an odd fluttery feeling on one of my shots a shift or two before, but hadn't noticed while I had continued play that something was amiss.

Regardless, I suppose it could have happened in a variety of ways (perhaps someone slashed it while I was shooting in a fashion that the stress caused it to splinter like it did - looked like it was crushed or something).

Though I'm not a big fan of how the Vector sticks are made, it really shouldn't have much afftect of the durability of the stick compared to other OPS

I wasn't worried about the durability, per say, just wondering if the uneven-ness of the interior could/would cause inconsistances with performance. Thought this could cause it to flex unevenly or torque unevenly. This made me wonder about the Vector ads that talked about how theirs torqued less (some study by Windsor, as I recall).

I've seen more Vector blades break than Easton, TPS, Bauer type blades(foam material inside) compared to the ABS CCM but that has to do with the blade, not shaft construction

Wasn't even the blade that broke - it was the shaft. Intersting thing about it is that it just so happened that it was pretty much at the exact spot that you'd normally cut it to put a tapered blade in. I did have to cut up though, as in my infinite wisdom, when I was wiggling the crushed part back and forth to tear it off, I caused a crack in the shaft, so had to cut up a bit to get past the crack. That's when I started noticing the stuff mentioned above.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Separate shaft and blade - the end of the Vector shaft is solid - notice the Vector's blade - you can see the blade's wrap come up the shaft just like on a wood stick. They assemble it and compress it. It is not a hollow shaft and fuse job.

The pre-preg process has nothing to do with the braiding of the graphite sock. It has to do with the foam inside the blade.

Yes, the Vector is very sloppy. I did this experiment a long time ago and did a cross-section of the stick. It's very hard to make a shaft out of them because of the uneven walls.

[sogaduch 0]

Separate shaft and blade - the end of the Vector shaft is solid - notice the Vector's blade - you can see the blade's wrap come up the shaft just like on a wood stick. They assemble it and compress it. It is not a hollow shaft and fuse job.

The pre-preg process has nothing to do with the braiding of the graphite sock. It has to do with the foam inside the blade.

Yes, the Vector is very sloppy. I did this experiment a long time ago and did a cross-section of the stick. It's very hard to make a shaft out of them because of the uneven walls.

i totally agree with JR. the vector isnt that well made of a stick, the walls arent properly reinforced and the blade isnt properly designed since the vector blade is an abs blade and when was the last time you saw a person use a 200 dollar stick for road or inline hockey.

[SR27 0]

Separate shaft and blade - the end of the Vector shaft is solid - notice the Vector's blade - you can see the blade's wrap come up the shaft just like on a wood stick.  They assemble it and compress it.  It is not a hollow shaft and fuse job.

The pre-preg process has nothing to do with the braiding of the graphite sock.  It has to do with the foam inside the blade. 

Yes, the Vector is very sloppy.  I did this experiment a long time ago and did a cross-section of the stick.  It's very hard to make a shaft out of them because of the uneven walls.

i totally agree with JR. the vector isnt that well made of a stick, the walls arent properly reinforced and the blade isnt properly designed since the vector blade is an abs blade and when was the last time you saw a person use a 200 dollar stick for road or inline hockey.

I see one every morning I pull myself to the bathroom. :D

But honestly I don´t see why the Vector is dissed that much. The V110 is a freaking tank and it performs well for the price i.m.o. I´d go for over any other lower end OPS. The V120 is crap I agree but the V130 again looks much improved and where I live it is a 100$ cheaper than an SL for example.

[jimmy 194]

Whatever happened to the days of picking up a stick that felt good and just playing with it? Ogie I myself am very intrigued by the science aspect of hockey equipment, but sometimes we go a little too far.

I agree with you. Way too far since we all know it's not the stick that scores goals, it's the mind and body.

I would though like to see manufacturers report on percentage of their sticks that break in the first 30 days. I think I saw Salming post on this board something like 2%. All should be so honest. I think you find Easton at the top of the breakage percentile, and the Vector with a much lower number.

[ktang 34]

We already know Vector is a sloppy stick.

What the true point was more of that the inside of the stick is (to use your expression) sloppy. It's not layered evenly. Seems to me you can't get consistant, even, and fluid performance if it varies like that. That being said, I'm, apparently, to dumb or too ill refined to notice the difference, as one of the things I liked about the stick was it's uniform flex throughout the shaft.

the composite appears to be thicker at the corners than in the middle on the G1

It's not just the corners though, it's the walls themselves in some places. When the wall itself is not as thick on one side as the other, wouldn't you figure its flex properties would be different in those areas?

So, the differing thicknesses could just be the contours of the tube used in production

Could be.

Though I'm not a big fan of how the Vector sticks are made, it really shouldn't have much afftect of the durability of the stick compared to other OPS

I wasn't worried about the durability, per say, just wondering if the uneven-ness of the interior could/would cause inconsistances with performance. Thought this could cause it to flex unevenly or torque unevenly. This made me wonder about the Vector ads that talked about how theirs torqued less (some study by Windsor, as I recall).

About flex and torque consistency, and how noticeable it would be to players:

Back (way back?) when we used wood sticks, or laminated wood sticks, or laminated wood-and-fibreglass sticks, the wood itself would be inconsistent, due to different sizes of trees, different parts of the trunk etc. But this consistency wasn't enough to be noticeable. I think there are orders of magnitude more inconsistency in the player than in the stick. We still managed to pass, stickhandle, and shoot with these sticks. We just had to check out the sticks before we bought them.

So, my point is that the Vector shaft may be less consistent than the Easton one, but this is probably not noticeable to players.

The Vector shaft may be less consistent in torque, but could still have less overall torquing than other sticks, too.

[Ogie Oglethorpe 14]

It's very hard to make a shaft out of them because of the uneven walls.

So I'm finding.

i totally agree with JR. the vector isnt that well made of a stick, the walls arent properly reinforced and the blade isnt properly designed since the vector blade is an abs blade and when was the last time you saw a person use a 200 dollar stick for road or inline hockey.

Well.... this is the V120 (so not ABS per say), but I hear ya. Oddly, I rather liked the stick though (better than my old synnergy). But, it's all PP.

I would though like to see manufacturers report on percentage of their sticks that break in the first 30 days.

No way you'd ever get an accurate number because it'd not be in the manufacturer's best interest to be honest. They'd adjust those that they thought weren't defects but user error, for instance.

About flex and torque consistency, and how noticeable it would be to players:

Back (way back?) when we used wood sticks, or laminated wood sticks, or laminated wood-and-fibreglass sticks, the wood itself would be inconsistent, due to different sizes of trees, different parts of the trunk etc. But this consistency wasn't enough to be noticeable. I think there are orders of magnitude more inconsistency in the player than in the stick. We still managed to pass, stickhandle, and shoot with these sticks. We just had to check out the sticks before we bought them.

So, my point is that the Vector shaft may be less consistent than the Easton one, but this is probably not noticeable to players.

The Vector shaft may be less consistent in torque, but could still have less overall torquing than other sticks, too.

Excellent points.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

V120 has an ABS core - the difference is the wrap they use over the blade.

[Jason Harris 31]

I would though like to see manufacturers report on percentage of their sticks that break in the first 30 days. I think I saw Salming post on this board something like 2%. All should be so honest. I think you find Easton at the top of the breakage percentile, and the Vector with a much lower number.

What's interesting about that, Jimmy, is I get different percentages from retailers, who obviously are getting different percentages from their reps. I told a retailer the other day that we're about 2% to 2.5%; he told me all of the Big Guys are around 1%, although that's much lower than I had heard previously from other retailers. So, now I no longer know whether our breakage rate is good or terrible! :lol:

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Keep in mind that the percentage will be different because more of their sticks are being sold/used.

[Jason Harris 31]

Keep in mind that the percentage will be different because more of their sticks are being sold/used.

I'm not sure that would be the case if we're referring to manufacturing defects; i.e., those sticks that broke during the first warmups. In that case, the percentages should remain the same, but the raw numbers would obviously be skewed.

[Chadd 916]

I would though like to see manufacturers report on percentage of their sticks that break in the first 30 days.  I think I saw Salming post on this board something like 2%. All should be so honest.  I think you find Easton at the top of the breakage percentile, and the Vector with a much lower number.

What's interesting about that, Jimmy, is I get different percentages from retailers, who obviously are getting different percentages from their reps. I told a retailer the other day that we're about 2% to 2.5%; he told me all of the Big Guys are around 1%, although that's much lower than I had heard previously from other retailers. So, now I no longer know whether our breakage rate is good or terrible! :lol:

You have to deal with the manufacturer directly with all of the big boys so that retailer may not be aware of the actual number. That, or he may be selling mostly junior sticks. Very few of those get broken within a warranty period. Unless of course you have guys playing AA or AA bantam or midget with a junior stick.

[jimmy 194]

I would though like to see manufacturers report on percentage of their sticks that break in the first 30 days.  I think I saw Salming post on this board something like 2%. All should be so honest.  I think you find Easton at the top of the breakage percentile, and the Vector with a much lower number.

What's interesting about that, Jimmy, is I get different percentages from retailers, who obviously are getting different percentages from their reps. I told a retailer the other day that we're about 2% to 2.5%; he told me all of the Big Guys are around 1%, although that's much lower than I had heard previously from other retailers. So, now I no longer know whether our breakage rate is good or terrible! :lol:

Retailers will have different numbers because of all the variables, customer base, etc. But manufacturers will have ALL the data, so their numbers are more accurate. For example, every SL I have sold has broke quick. 100% breakage. But my sample size is small. However, do not ignore retailer findings. We have thousands of customers and what we se and what they tell us are indicative of trends, but not "statistically" accurate.