Afinogenov's Stick

[Eazy_b97 1]

Berezin is the posterboy for wasted talent, he'd be in the NHL if he was willing to pass. He knew when players were open, he just never wanted to feed them. He saw the ice well, but didn't use it. Plus he wasn't a fan of the backcheck. Skillwise, I'd say Berezin and Afi are at least even, when they are both "on" I'd likely take Berezin. He made some huge plays. The pass to Thomas to eliminate the Sens (which nobody in the rink was expecting). Burried a few times on Brodeur in key situations to help the team out at well. Insurance goals late, GTG, etc.. He seemed to elevate his play in the playoffs and come through. It's just you had to live with his attitude and nobody was willing to do it.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

Berezin is the posterboy for wasted talent, he'd be in the NHL if he was willing to pass. He knew when players were open, he just never wanted to feed them. He saw the ice well, but didn't use it. Plus he wasn't a fan of the backcheck. Skillwise, I'd say Berezin and Afi are at least even, when they are both "on" I'd likely take Berezin. He made some huge plays. The pass to Thomas to eliminate the Sens (which nobody in the rink was expecting). Burried a few times on Brodeur in key situations to help the team out at well. Insurance goals late, GTG, etc.. He seemed to elevate his play in the playoffs and come through. It's just you had to live with his attitude and nobody was willing to do it.

Afinogenov always put other team's D on their toes. I'm sure he's one of the most feared forward in the league for the defenseman.

And for that productivity/skills discussion, some guys are better finishers but they are not better players, they are just better finishers (e.g. - Luc Robitaille). You can't have all the same kind of players in a team, you need to have finishers but you also need players like Afinogenov that can carry the puck and that can put the others team on their toes. It's not just about production.

[flip12 714]

Maybe all along we've seen so much Bureness in Afinogenov that we expected him to be a finisher. Maybe he's more of a playmaker. I enjoyed watching him on the powerplay (that was less painful than Afino at even strength) because he is a clever passer. He dances along the halfboards and makes the defense move and finds the open lanes on the PP.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Afinogenov always put other team's D on their toes. I'm sure he's one of the most feared forward in the league for the defenseman.

And for that productivity/skills discussion, some guys are better finishers but they are not better players, they are just better finishers (e.g. - Luc Robitaille). You can't have all the same kind of players in a team, you need to have finishers but you also need players like Afinogenov that can carry the puck and that can put the others team on their toes. It's not just about production.

It's ALL about production, it can just come in various forms. Afi is a scorer/playmaker. He isn't a physical player. If he isn't putting up numbers, he isn't helping Buffalo win. He's not paid to do Adam Mair's job. He's counted on to be a scorer on the Sabres.

You don't think Berezin put other teams D on their toes? Sure looked like he turned a ton of D-men inside out in Toronto. Sure looked like he caught alot of D flat footed. Afi's got speed to burn, and plays a game similar to Bure, but he isn't scoring like Bure did and he was expected to. He was supposed to be the next Bure, dubbed the mini-russian-rocket or some other stupid Bure rip-off at the WJC. He's still got time to evolve into something more than he is today, he has definately shown flashes of it, but without the touch around the net he'll never live up to his potential or original expectations.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

Afinogenov always put other team's D on their toes. I'm sure he's one of the most feared forward in the league for the defenseman.

And for that productivity/skills discussion, some guys are better finishers but they are not better players, they are just better finishers (e.g. - Luc Robitaille). You can't have all the same kind of players in a team, you need to have finishers but you also need players like Afinogenov that can carry the puck and that can put the others team on their toes. It's not just about production.

It's ALL about production, it can just come in various forms. Afi is a scorer/playmaker. He isn't a physical player. If he isn't putting up numbers, he isn't helping Buffalo win. He's not paid to do Adam Mair's job. He's counted on to be a scorer on the Sabres.

You don't think Berezin put other teams D on their toes? Sure looked like he turned a ton of D-men inside out in Toronto. Sure looked like he caught alot of D flat footed. Afi's got speed to burn, and plays a game similar to Bure, but he isn't scoring like Bure did and he was expected to. He was supposed to be the next Bure, dubbed the mini-russian-rocket or some other stupid Bure rip-off at the WJC. He's still got time to evolve into something more than he is today, he has definately shown flashes of it, but without the touch around the net he'll never live up to his potential or original expectations.

Hockey is a game of puck possesion, the more skills you have to keep it and get it, the more chance you have to win, so it's why Afinogenov is so important IMO, he can score and pass but also he can keep the puck and have the speed to win 1 vs 1 not only with the puck but without it. A Glenn Murray is sure good around the net but is he a good one vs one player? Hockey sure is a team sport, but the best team is the team that have the most talented group of players that want to play as a unit. This is where Berezin was failing but from what I've seen of Afinogenov, he seems a team player but he will never be a Bure. Stop comparing him to Bure and just enjoy what he can do.

[flip12 714]

Stop comparing him to Bure and just enjoy what he can do.

I agree this is the best way to watch him. He's good in and of himself.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Puck possession? He's a turnover machine. Sure he goes end to end, but he also turns the puck over at the bluelines and gets his players caught. A 1 on 1 player without finish isn't really a great 1 on 1 player. Like I said earlier you can have grinders do that job. Everything you've said about him is true for Berezin with the exception of the team attitude. Which is why 1 is in the NHL and the other is not. Although if Afi goes back to his 35 point seasons he may not be around too much longer. This is the first season he's had more goals than assists. It's pretty tough not to call him a "goal scorer" in that situation.

[Chadd 916]

Stop comparing him to Bure and just enjoy what he can do.

I agree this is the best way to watch him. He's good in and of himself.

At least he's entertaining most of the time. He's either going to make the goalie look good on 3/4 of his odd man rushes or breakaways, or he's going to give someone from the other team a chance to make a nice defensive play and take the puck away from him. The guy has wheels and moves but his lack of finishing and hockey sense have held him back.

Not every player is a complete package and sometimes people get frustrated when a guy is lightning fast but is missing some of the other skills needed to be great.

[Neal 41]

Not every player is a complete package and sometimes people get frustrated when a guy is lightning fast but is missing some of the other skills needed to be great.

This is exactly why the Red Wings got Kris Draper from the Jets for a $1. Draper got 2nd line minutes in Winnipeg and to calculate the number of chances he got with his speed and blew with his hands would require Nasa level super computers. The Wings were smart enough (and rich enough) to throw him on a fourth line and tell him to just create havoc in the offensive zone with his speed and play solidly defensively elsewhere.

[Cavs019 708]

Hockey isn't a game of puck possession Kovy, it's a game of scoring more goals than the other team, now matter how good or bad it looks.

[forsberg91 0]

Yeah but dont you need the puck to score...

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

Yeah, the more you have the puck, the more the other team is going to do errors, take penalties, etc...and the more you have the puck the more you can score goals.

[TBLfan 25]

one thing I have noticed is that lately players haven't been putting the puck on net as much as they're trying to make amazing goals or setup nice one timers. If he just put the puck on net and follow his shot he'd score more.

I saw it all season with many teams, they try to make everything look pretty instead of just putting the puck on net. The Lightning are famous for this*.

*See Brad Richards, Marty St Louis, Vinny Lecavalier, Ruslan Fedotenko, Vaclav Prospal.

[Chadd 916]

Yeah, the more you have the puck, the more the other team is going to do errors, take penalties, etc...and the more you have the puck the more you can score goals.

The longer you hold the puck, the greater the chance you're going to turn it over. Adam Graves scored 50+ goals one year and held the puck for less than a second on most of them. Same thing for John Leclair. Puck handling is a great skill to have but it's utterly useless if you don't do anything productive with the puck when you do have it.

[flip12 714]

Cavs019 Posted on Jun 7 2006, 12:19 PM

  Hockey isn't a game of puck possession Kovy, it's a game of scoring more goals than the other team, now matter how good or bad it looks. 

On any given night I think that is abstractly true. It doesn't matter how you score. But to consistently score more than the opponent I agree with Kovy, that you've got to have superior puck possession.

Graves scored those 52 goals on a championship team with some pretty good puckhandlers--not just for pretty plays, but guys that are just good with the puck, Kovalev included, who has come up on this thread--that made it possible for him to reach the 50-goal plateau.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

Cavs019 Posted on Jun 7 2006, 12:19 PM

  Hockey isn't a game of puck possession Kovy, it's a game of scoring more goals than the other team, now matter how good or bad it looks. 

On any given night I think that is abstractly true. It doesn't matter how you score. But to consistently score more than the opponent I agree with Kovy, that you've got to have superior puck possession.

EXACTLY

[Eazy_b97 1]

....but NJ won a number of championships without dominating puck possession.

[flip12 714]

They were trappers, so that's a form of puck possession. It doesn't have to be pretty. They had guys who were good with the puck (and probably would be prettier with it if they played for more open-hockey-philosophy teams) within their system. They would go d-to-d-to-d-to-d-to-d-to-d until a forward was open. They were great at it. Even Brodeur is good with his puck handling, which, as we've seen recently, is quite valuable even in a goalie.

[OTHockey96 0]

I know that he missed an important breakaway in one of the Carolina games, but this guy CAN score on breakaways, in fact he's pretty good on breakaways. He just isn't a good finisher the rest of the time. You have to admit that he's one of the best playmakers in the league, and I'm not saying he's the BEST playmaker, but he's up there.

[dieselbro 0]

I dunno, I still think hes a good player

ought we be reminded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdq3b8iq_E0&search=afinogenov

[Eazy_b97 1]

They were trappers, so that's a form of puck possession. It doesn't have to be pretty. They had guys who were good with the puck (and probably would be prettier with it if they played for more open-hockey-philosophy teams) within their system. They would go d-to-d-to-d-to-d-to-d-to-d until a forward was open. They were great at it. Even Brodeur is good with his puck handling, which, as we've seen recently, is quite valuable even in a goalie.

Dump and chase isn't puck possession. They're controlling the flow, but not the puck. They wouldn't really control the puck much in the games I saw to be honest, cross the line, dump, set-up. If there was no options they dumped it rather than regroup. Cuts down on turn-overs.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

They were trappers, so that's a form of puck possession.  It doesn't have to be pretty.  They had guys who were good with the puck (and probably would be prettier with it if they played for more open-hockey-philosophy teams) within their system.  They would go d-to-d-to-d-to-d-to-d-to-d until a forward was open.  They were great at it.  Even Brodeur is good with his puck handling, which, as we've seen recently, is quite valuable even in a goalie.

Dump and chase isn't puck possession. They're controlling the flow, but not the puck. They wouldn't really control the puck much in the games I saw to be honest, cross the line, dump, set-up. If there was no options they dumped it rather than regroup. Cuts down on turn-overs.

Jaques Lemaire once said in interveiw that the best way to beat trap is skills, skills, skills.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Great....but still dump and chase.

I've never said Afi wasn't talented. What I have said is he isn't the sniper he was supposed to be, and only has 1 productive season under his belt. If he doesn't put up points, he is useless, because he turns the puck over in poor spots and isn't overly enthusiastic on the backcheck.

[flip12 714]

Maybe Ron Burgandy said it best, "Agree to disagree."

But here are good puck guys on NJ championships teams (in my judgment):

2003: Brodeur, Brylin, Daneyko, Elias, Friesen, Gomez, Langenbrunner, Madden, Niedermayer, Nieuwendyk, Rafalski, Stevens

2000: Arnott, Brodeur, Brylin, Daneyko, Elias, Gomez, Holik, Madden, Malakhov, Mogilny, Nemchinov, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Stevens, Sykora

1995: Brodeur, Brylin, Daneyko, Driver, Guerin, Holik, Lemieux, Niedermayer, Stevens, Zelepukin

It's all our own memory of these championships at least three years past. '95 maybe I'd give you that they were dump and run but the last two were pretty dominant offensive teams with choke-hold defenses. And even if all of these three championships were exceptions to the rule that puck-possessing teams win, that's a very slight exception and doesn't even make a bump on what I think about what it takes to win a championship. Puck possession. For the sake of your argument I'll agree. New Jersey won all those championships without dominant puck possession. But it doesn't matter.

[willy0314 0]

Great....but still dump and chase.

I've never said Afi wasn't talented. What I have said is he isn't the sniper he was supposed to be, and only has 1 productive season under his belt. If he doesn't put up points, he is useless, because he turns the puck over in poor spots and isn't overly enthusiastic on the backcheck.

i watched prolly 90% of the sabres games this year ( thank you TIVO ) and max was a pretty good back checker for the most part and not the turnover machine he used to be. That used to be the knock on him that he wasn't a team guy, wouldn't pass and use his team mates, and wouldn't play both ends of the ice. But that all changed this year. When Satan left, he got alot more ice time, more responsibility and with max admitedly realizing he cant do everything himself, and you seen his point totals go way up this year. granted in the playoffs his game was off and he looked nervous at times, but dont bust of the guy for not being a finisher, and say his is useless.