Sprung Hockey

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

How many shops have Sidas machines? Not many. And they are expensive.

You're reaching here...90% of people who work in a LHS can't assess an arch, let alone fit a footbed for one. You're talking about an extremely niche product in this industry. One that you're giving people too much credit to accomplish.

Telling manufacturers to put better footbeds in their skate isn't the answer. Hell, does Graf even put their custom footbeds in their stock skates? No. It's the stock one.

This thread is going off course.

[romdj 26]

How many shops have Sidas machines? Not many. And they are expensive.

You're reaching here...90% of people who work in a LHS can't assess an arch, let alone fit a footbed for one. You're talking about an extremely niche product in this industry. One that you're giving people too much credit to accomplish.

Telling manufacturers to put better footbeds in their skate isn't the answer. Hell, does Graf even put their custom footbeds in their stock skates? No. It's the stock one.

This thread is going off course.

I do understand and do agree with you, it's something far too complicated to put into place. I just find it odd that you're paying 1000$ for a pair of skates, and that the footbed is a 10$ one...

Anyways back to the sprung, I think that a brand can make a good estimation about whether or not they would gain by offering the sprung frame by making a Limited Edition model.

[shooter27 116]

Telling manufacturers to put better footbeds in their skate isn't the answer. Hell, does Graf even put their custom footbeds in their stock skates? No. It's the stock one.

I believe if you buy the Graf Ultra Series (not the 7xx series or below) they throw in the custom footbeds for free, at least if you buy from shops that have the Sidas machine. Don't know if that is a Graf dictated thing or its the decision of the shop, but I've walked into 3 different shops with the Sidas machine and an extensive Graf inventory and they've all offered it.

[Justin 1933 134]

I am going to end this once and for all. There are numerous reasons not to use Sprungs, but the biggest reason is demand. The demand for Sprung chassis on our skates is very limited. Once you leave modsquadhockey.com, I never hear a dealer or player ask for them. If there was a demand, I would think about putting them on skates, but there isn't.

I am not saying the product is good, bad, or indifferent. We just believe it is not the right product for our skates. Chassis are all about personal preference. I personally do not like Sprung Chassis, but i liked the VIBE in the back (hated VIBE on front and back wheels). Our current all 80 chassis took me a month to get use to, and now I love it.

Contrary to what some people may believe, there is no conspiracy to keep Sprung down.

[Stewie 721]

I am going to end this once and for all. There are numerous reasons not to use Sprungs, but the biggest reason is demand. The demand for Sprung chassis on our skates is very limited. Once you leave modsquadhockey.com, I never hear a dealer or player ask for them. If there was a demand, I would think about putting them on skates, but there isn't.

I am not saying the product is good, bad, or indifferent. We just believe it is not the right product for our skates. Chassis are all about personal preference. I personally do not like Sprung Chassis, but i liked the VIBE in the back (hated VIBE on front and back wheels). Our current all 80 chassis took me a month to get use to, and now I love it.

Contrary to what some people may believe, there is no conspiracy to keep Sprung down.

not to mention launching a new product line with a chassis that not many people are familiar with might not be the best for getting off the ground.

[wetwilly17 6]

I am going to end this once and for all. There are numerous reasons not to use Sprungs, but the biggest reason is demand. The demand for Sprung chassis on our skates is very limited. Once you leave modsquadhockey.com, I never hear a dealer or player ask for them. If there was a demand, I would think about putting them on skates, but there isn't.

I am not saying the product is good, bad, or indifferent. We just believe it is not the right product for our skates. Chassis are all about personal preference. I personally do not like Sprung Chassis, but i liked the VIBE in the back (hated VIBE on front and back wheels). Our current all 80 chassis took me a month to get use to, and now I love it.

Contrary to what some people may believe, there is no conspiracy to keep Sprung down.

I respect your decision not to deal with sprung. But I think using demand as the reasoning is bad logic. There was a time when there was no public demand for multiple pour wheels. There was a time when there was no demand for mag frames. There was a time when everyone skated quads and there was no demand for inline frames. Obviously the public doesn't know what the next technology will be. It takes someone willing to invest and pitch it to them. If a manufacturer only caters to current demand, then he will eventually get left in the dust by those manufacturers willing to innovate and change public demand. With that said, I can read between the lines and understand what your other reasons are for not using sprungs. But using demand as your reasoning makes you appear unwilling to innovate and evolve.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

Obviously the public doesn't know what the next technology will be. It takes someone willing to invest and pitch it to them. If a manufacturer only caters to current demand, then he will eventually get left in the dust by those manufacturers willing to innovate and change public demand. With that said, I can read between the lines and understand what your other reasons are for not using sprungs. But using demand as your reasoning makes you appear unwilling to innovate and evolve.

In Justin's defense, who's to say he's not working on the next technology right now? Or anyone else in the industry?

I think it's a bit out of line to label someone "unwilling to innovate and evolve" when it's because they won't buy into a concept that you may like.

You all have choices. Keith innovated and evolved his holder. You can still support him by buying it from him.

[wetwilly17 6]

In Justin's defense, who's to say he's not working on the next technology right now? Or anyone else in the industry?

I think it's a bit out of line to label someone "unwilling to innovate and evolve" when it's because they won't buy into a concept that you may like.

You all have choices. Keith innovated and evolved his holder. You can still support him by buying it from him.

I was not speaking about sprungs. It was a general statement.

If alkali is working on the next great technology then it is a contradiction to the previous post, since there is no current demand specifically for this technology. There is a demand for improvement.

I understand all the unsaid reasons why alkali wouldn't deal with sprung and I don't fault them for that. Like I said earlier, I respect the decision. However I personally feel that if it is mainly about current demand then it reflects negatively on them. This my opinion and I feel I've supported my opin ion well with examples. It wasn't malicious at all, just my pov on the matter.

[romdj 26]

I am going to end this once and for all. There are numerous reasons not to use Sprungs, but the biggest reason is demand. The demand for Sprung chassis on our skates is very limited. Once you leave modsquadhockey.com, I never hear a dealer or player ask for them. If there was a demand, I would think about putting them on skates, but there isn't.

I am not saying the product is good, bad, or indifferent. We just believe it is not the right product for our skates. Chassis are all about personal preference. I personally do not like Sprung Chassis, but i liked the VIBE in the back (hated VIBE on front and back wheels). Our current all 80 chassis took me a month to get use to, and now I love it.

Contrary to what some people may believe, there is no conspiracy to keep Sprung down.

I understand the decision and respect it 100% you have to obey supply/demand rule and especially since Alkali just entered the market, you have to be profitable, or at least be able to live from it.

However, may I just say that just before the iPad was coming out, everybody was thinking : "what the **** is Apple thinking!" turned out it revolutionized the electronic world.

Maybe Alkali could be on about something... (available as an option or limited edition if you want to evaluate the demand)

that's my 2cents but yet again, Alkali's decision is respectable and understandable.

[missionsparta 0]

Wow. I apologize and stand corrected. I didn't think people would get in an uproar over me asking someone's opinion. Game, set, match.

[henryb 4]

Wow. I apologize and stand corrected. I didn't think people would get in an uproar over me asking someone's opinion. Game, set, match.

LOL, you took the words right out of my mouth! Nothing like a good juicey topic to generate some interest in a great product. I mentioned in a much earlier post in this latest discussion, I said that the real market opportunity for Sprung is in the ice hockey player that also plays roller. With Alkali being a Roller only company, it may not suit them as an ideal match?

I also wanted to applaud Wetwilly on his post on the public doesn't know what the next technology will be! For example in my summer league has about 600 players, and there might have been only a handful of players that even knew what Sprung was before they saw mine! However everyone that see's me skate on them, ask about them, want to know how they work, want to try them out... And most importantly where they can get a pair and how much!

Certainly Sprung might not be for everyone, but I do believe there is a market for them. The issue is that they need to be produced in greater numbers and made more available to more people. An OEM deal is certainly one way to get the product out there in the public eye, but I think there are other ways as well. I hope the product survives, as I believe it to be one of the most innovative products that Inline has seen in a long time!

[Justin 1933 134]

As I have said before it is not the right product for us. Would you risk you company on a product that you did not like or personally believe in? I wouldn't. I have no hard feeling towards Sprung and wish them nothing but the best. The more players, companies, manufacturers, etc. in roller hockey, the better. Growing the sport is what is important.

[henryb 4]

Hey Justin, I think you are absolutely right and I think a very large percentage of the Roller community is 100% behind you. Keep on paving new roads to make the sport better! I just hope that Sprung finds a way to stay alive in this difficult market.

[Sprungster 5]

It is unfortunate, but there is overwhelming evidence that a small group of companies, and their employees, have continuously protected the exclusive use of the rigid metal chassis in the inline hockey and off-ice training equipment markets. This rigid metal chassis policy has been enforced, by these companies and their employees, down through their distributors, their reps, local and online hockey shops, and any player, or person, remotely associated to their brands. This same policy is, and has been, enforced in the hockey equipment aftermarket.

This policy and its enforcement by these companies and their employees has made it impossible for Sprung to continue in business. Because of our unjust failure to penetrate the hockey equipment markets, we have been unable to enter the other inline category markets. Because of this unjust policy, Sprung is preparing to file an antitrust/unfair business practices lawsuit against these companies and their employees.

This is not how any of us thought it would end up.

We have been refunding pre-order deposits out of pocket, but we don't have the cash flow to cover what's left all at once. However, on the other side of the lawsuit, Sprung will have the cash flow to finish the A6X modifications, the production run, and our other proposed advancements to the product. And a more receptive market.

Keith Longino, Pres.

Sprung Suspensions, Inc.

213-884-6176 (new cell)

[missionsparta 0]

It is unfortunate, but there is overwhelming evidence that a small group of companies, and their employees, have continuously protected the exclusive use of the rigid metal chassis in the inline hockey and off-ice training equipment markets. This rigid metal chassis policy has been enforced, by these companies and their employees, down through their distributors, their reps, local and online hockey shops, and any player, or person, remotely associated to their brands. This same policy is, and has been, enforced in the hockey equipment aftermarket.

This policy and its enforcement by these companies and their employees has made it impossible for Sprung to continue in business. Because of our unjust failure to penetrate the hockey equipment markets, we have been unable to enter the other inline category markets. Because of this unjust policy, Sprung is preparing to file an antitrust/unfair business practices lawsuit against these companies and their employees.

This is not how any of us thought it would end up.

We have been refunding pre-order deposits out of pocket, but we don't have the cash flow to cover what's left all at once. However, on the other side of the lawsuit, Sprung will have the cash flow to finish the A6X modifications, the production run, and our other proposed advancements to the product. And a more receptive market.

Keith Longino, Pres.

Sprung Suspensions, Inc.

213-884-6176 (new cell)

Hey Keith.... A little confused as to where this leaves the rest of us? We are out of luck or we just have to continue to sit tight? Thanks...

[kerrigan 1]

I understand the decision and respect it 100% you have to obey supply/demand rule and especially since Alkali just entered the market, you have to be profitable, or at least be able to live from it.

However, may I just say that just before the iPad was coming out, everybody was thinking : "what the **** is Apple thinking!" turned out it revolutionized the electronic world.

Maybe Alkali could be on about something... (available as an option or limited edition if you want to evaluate the demand)

that's my 2cents but yet again, Alkali's decision is respectable and understandable.

Excellent point. Here's a few quotes from the guy who lived them....

Generally speaking on market research: Steve Jobs - "Some people say, 'Give the customers what they want.' But that’s not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they’re going to want before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, 'If I’d asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, "A faster horse!"' People don’t know what they want until you show it to them. That’s why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page."

And speaking specific when asked, What market research went into the iPad? -“None. It’s not the consumers’ job to know what they want…we figure out what we want."

[FactionSports 10]

Keith,

I’ve been very reluctant to comment on this topic the past few days but I feel its gone a bit too far by claiming you are filing lawsuit against “these” companies for unjust business practices. Especially stating this on a message board in what appears to be an attempt to garner support in your favor and against those companies you are suggesting.

Lets take a look at the facts:

Sprung chose to enter a niche category in a niche industry. Aftermarket frames in general are a very, very low percentage (less than 5%) of the retail roller hockey industry, which experienced an incredible decline in the past 7-10 years. ANY company would encounter a struggle by entering this particular market, especially during this period of time.

Although personally I do not like the feel of Sprungs very much, I am of the same mindset of Justin that the more competition there is, the better the industry will be. Everyone has their own personal preference when it comes to product. Sure, I would LOVE it if everyone preferred Rink Rat wheels over my competition, but that’s not how things work. So I do my best to deliver the best product I can and get it in front of as many customers as possible and let them make their own decision. Customers want to have options when purchasing products and your product allows that option.

The retailers WILL carry your product if enough people walk into their store and ask for it.

I’ve been in your shoes before. I experienced this same OEM issue when I was working for Revision wheels in the early years. After a couple years of developing our product to the point we felt we had something very competitive, we went after the OEM business because we knew that would immediately grow our aftermarket retail business. By getting on the Mission skates, we would’ve immediately been included in their global sales, distribution, and marketing networks. Great deal for the small wheel company, right? Absolutely. What about Mission? Well they were not willing to put our product on their skates because we had not yet developed our business ourselves and created a level of demand that was necessary enough to give their skates any added value at the retail level. Product quality had nothing to do with it. They liked our product. But we had no demand in the marketplace for them to justify switching from Labeda, who has thousands of customers, to Revision (who at the time was still in the start-up phase). How many customers would Mission possibly LOSE to Tour or Reebok by choosing to put our product on their skates instead of Labeda? Well that’s a risk that not many companies are willing to make. Mission had already made that mistake once by using Factory wheels and that did not turn out very well.

It is not the responsibility of the skate manufacturer to build your business for you. You need to spend money on promotions at tournaments and events, get your product in front of as many customers as possible, find solid sales reps that can do the leg work of getting your product onto some retail shelves, and be able to understand and meet your supply/demand curve. If you do those correctly, over time you have a chance of being successful.

I also think that people need to realize the cost factor for an OEM to use Sprungs and what that does to the pricing structure. Because aside from product/brand recognition, this is the most important factor an OEM has to consider.

Sprung Chassis retail for $135.00..thats a factual number. My best-guess is that production cost with parts and labor is somewhere near $40 for one pair. But Sprung needs to make money to stay in business so now they need to sell to the OEM at a higher price…probably at least $50 for a set of chassis. Anyone here can do a little research and find out that extruded 7000 series aluminum frames (top end aluminum frame available) cost around $15-20 per pair (if buying in mass amounts say 2000 pairs). For lesser quantity volume that price goes up. That $30-$35 increase may not seem much at first, but that cost gets doubled to the retailer, then doubled again to the consumer. How many people would really be willing to spend an extra $120-140 for a pair of skates with a product on it that they are not sure they would even like. Chances are they’d save that money and go buy another brand with a product they are more comfortable with.

Someone here mentioned about making a Limited Edition skate with Sprungs which is a valid question, but lets take a look at that. Okay…so now instead of the OEM buying 2000 pairs of chassis, the OEM is buying only 500 pairs to supply a limited run of skates. Now the cost of the chassis has gotten even higher, probably near $65 and that high end LE skate that would have retailed at $599 is now in the range of $800-860 for a pair of roller hockey skates…just because of the chassis. That is un heard of and the market is not ready for that yet.

For you to place blame on the skate manufacturers for not willing to compromise their product, brand and customer base that they’ve spent millions of dollars working to obtain by putting your product onto their skates is unjust in itself. There is no conspiracy theory amongst all the other hockey companies to shut out Sprung.

Keith, I’ve had the opportunity to speak with you several times at tournaments and I appreciate your passion and innovation you’ve dedicated to the sport. But it seems that your frustrations have been mis-placed in this case. And this definitely is not the forum to air out such dirty laundry.

I wish you the best of luck.

Nick Dowling

[missionsparta 0]

Im just curious. Anytime someone asks about a refund on the pre-orders and/or the situation with the pre-orders, there conveniently is never a response. The second Justin or someone else states an opinion opposed to your opinion about your product, you manage to refind this forum almost immediately. Perhaps the way you are performing your business and your attitude that is being tied to this product is a reason some of these companies are reluctant to deal with you. And your statement about our refunds coming out of your pocket.... Actually they come out of OUR pocket as that is where the money came from when we were told in good faith that the orders would be filled in June/July of 2011. You took money and gave a few excuses in the first few months of missing the target delivery date. Since then you give little to no updates in the situation and choose to ignore direct questions about the preorders. Once again, my best guess is the manufacturers reluctance to get in bed with you has as much to do with your attitude and business practice as much as it does the lack of demand for your product.

[aldoraines 0]

I contacted Keith via his email regarding preorder refund and received a refund within a few days.

[sdcopp 1]

Nick - Thank you for putting out there far more eloquently something I (and I'm sure a few others as well) was trying to find the words for.

Keith - I personally am appalled at seeing your post. I'm not a moderator, nor an industry rep, just a contributing member so I can't even imagine what the aforementioned groups think about what you put out there.

Now before you think I'm someone just out to throw more stones at you, let's rehash a couple things. I've bought your product. Twice. I tried the original frames and was not a fan of the overall feel on them. I saw enough potential in it though that I gave you a second chance with the A6. I noted in this thread I thought it was a much better product, but not quite for me. Point blank if you had offered in a good alloy (even a good 7000 spec makeup) as well as stiffer springs (an item I openly posted inquiry about) it probably would've made a much more compelling case for me personally and I'm sure others as well. When I think of nylon inline hockey chassis, I'm old enough to recall (and used) Tour S274, Bauer H3/H5 and CCM RH100 Tacks skates, all entry level $100 or less options.

When your initial talks with Reebok fell through and that chance at an OEM deal fell through, you came on here and lashed out at them (again a place where there are reps from all the major companies) even going so far as to refuse doing conversions involving Reebok boots for customers who wanted to use your product. Every time a manufacturer has refused any OEM possibility, you badmouth them, subtly or otherwise.

From a consumer's POV, I agree with Nick and Justin's sentiments on this page, more companies in the game is better. I'm not unique in the case that I'm not just outfitting myself, but my kids as well. What works for me will not always be the right choice for them.

You have a solid, albeit niche, product. A couple people I consider friends, even if the only interactions we may ever have are online, really like your product. You do need exposure at the bigger events to grow though, there's just no way around that. Saying Itan and the Yoder brothers are big fans of your product doesn't mean a thing when they aren't using it at NARCH, ToRHs, State Wars, International tournies, etc.

My piece of advice, build a boot. Revision built a new boot for the market. Alkali found the funding to build an entire new brand. Hell, even Hockeytron has a branded boot. There's no doubt you're a smart guy, and no doubt you have the passion. You've done everything though to not just burn but nuke all existing bridges with the people who could make you a boot themselves and have blatantly ignored the people in public forums you can't seem to deliver to.

[shute 4]

I hate to say it but making his own boot would be a bad idea especially if he doesn't have any experience designing one. I can't think of too many people willing to buy a boot from an unknown maker. I'm also sure it would be very expensive to design and make a new boot. He has a family to support and there won't be a line up of investors willing to fork the bill to an unknown maker. At least Alkali has Justin and his mission background. He has a niche market, best on the market, it's either a ridged chassis or his and there is nothing else that even comes close. If i were him i would continue to drive this niche market and if everything works out get bought out by a large hockey company. You see it with niche companies in the computer industry so why hockey.

either way we i too think this has gone too far and everyone needs to take a step back. Let's bring this thread back on topic, talking about a great product.

[henryb 4]

I totally agree, and I want to be the first to get on task... Now that ice hockey season is over in March, I have been skating just on Inline for about a month now, I skate about 4-5 hours a week, between games and scrimmages. This weekend one of the guys on my ice hockey team rented a pad of ice and invited about 15 friends out for a friendly game of pick-up.

From years gone by of skating on solid inline frames, I always dreaded going back to ice skates and getting used to the rocker again. But what I forgot is that with Sprung chassis, the switch back is smooth and there really is no transition period at all. By the end of the first shift, I was making burst starts, power turns, stopping on a dime and feeling 100% comfortable on ice skates right off.

I know that everyone is different and take different amounts of time to make the transition, some are good after 1 or 2 games, some take weeks to get their "rocker legs" back. But with Sprung, their is no transition at all, this must be due to the fact that you can use an ice hockey stride... which is different than a solid frame Inline stride.

All that being said, the players that only play Inline may not see the benefits of the Sprung Chassis immediately of get that comfortable feeling of a rockered ice skate. Rolling up on your toes to get a fast start or pitching back on you heels for a fast turn. Along with kick they give on the start and it allows easier braking... these are the real benefits of Sprung's. And I must say the benefits are quite amazing!

[voxyledbetter 9]

I've been lurking in this thread since I joined MSH, and I feel like I have to voice my opinion just a little. I know you are trying to get this thread on track about talking about the benefits of Sprungs, but how you spread the word when no one can buy a pair? The only size in stock on the website is A8's. From the sound of it, there are people who are waiting on pre orders from last year still. I was interested in getting a set when I bought my missions last year but I quickly realized I couldn't just go buy a set of Sprungs. I work in a retail business (not hockey related) and if we don't have product in stock we don't have sales. And when you're out of stock for a certain period of time customers go else where. I'm not going to change from ridgid frames because there isn't anything else in the current market place.

And I skate one night of ice and one to two nights of roller every week. So if this frame was available I would take advantage of it.

[wetwilly17 6]

I totally agree, and I want to be the first to get on task... Now that ice hockey season is over in March, I have been skating just on Inline for about a month now, I skate about 4-5 hours a week, between games and scrimmages. This weekend one of the guys on my ice hockey team rented a pad of ice and invited about 15 friends out for a friendly game of pick-up.

From years gone by of skating on solid inline frames, I always dreaded going back to ice skates and getting used to the rocker again. But what I forgot is that with Sprung chassis, the switch back is smooth and there really is no transition period at all. By the end of the first shift, I was making burst starts, power turns, stopping on a dime and feeling 100% comfortable on ice skates right off.

I know that everyone is different and take different amounts of time to make the transition, some are good after 1 or 2 games, some take weeks to get their "rocker legs" back. But with Sprung, their is no transition at all, this must be due to the fact that you can use an ice hockey stride... which is different than a solid frame Inline stride.

All that being said, the players that only play Inline may not see the benefits of the Sprung Chassis immediately of get that comfortable feeling of a rockered ice skate. Rolling up on your toes to get a fast start or pitching back on you heels for a fast turn. Along with kick they give on the start and it allows easier braking... these are the real benefits of Sprung's. And I must say the benefits are quite amazing!

[missionsparta 0]

I've been lurking in this thread since I joined MSH, and I feel like I have to voice my opinion just a little. I know you are trying to get this thread on track about talking about the benefits of Sprungs, but how you spread the word when no one can buy a pair? The only size in stock on the website is A8's. From the sound of it, there are people who are waiting on pre orders from last year still. I was interested in getting a set when I bought my missions last year but I quickly realized I couldn't just go buy a set of Sprungs. I work in a retail business (not hockey related) and if we don't have product in stock we don't have sales. And when you're out of stock for a certain period of time customers go else where. I'm not going to change from ridgid frames because there isn't anything else in the current market place.

And I skate one night of ice and one to two nights of roller every week. So if this frame was available I would take advantage of it.

You nailed it there. I have been waiting with a pair of Flexlites to slap some inline frames on. It is now at the point I have waited so long, I am just thinking about getting a rigid chassis and slapping those on.