Payback is a b*tch JR!

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

It is true - I've been saying that for the past few years - the reason the Yanks had the dynasty in the late 90s was because their core was homegrown. While they picked up the odd free-agent, the core came up through the farm system. The Yanks have reverted to the mid-late 80s teams, picking up guys who while talented, were bad fits.

Torre didn't have to be a hard-ass with those guys because they had the right mindset, plus it wasn't his style. These guys need a hard-ass, and they'll get that with Sweet Lou.

[mack 44]

No, the Twins aren't the shining example of how a team should be built because the A's are consistently better and have little to no money to work with. They dealt away Hudson and Mulder and they're back in the playoffs, could Minnesota do that with Santana?

[TBLfan 25]

No but that's what is really good about the twins they have great pitching... AND their best pitcher for more than half the season was a rookie that they brought up from the minors. Don't get me wrong but Oakland is also a prime example of how a team should be run but the Twins are a better fit, in my opinion.

The biggest problem is that this isn't something that is going to be fixed overnight and George wouldn't be willing to revamp the system and risk not being competitive for a short while. It's something we have to live with, but regardless how I feel about how the team is run I'm not going to walk away from them. I've been a Yankee fan all my life and that's never going to change.

[mack 44]

Short-term effect is you'll have a manager that's dealt with A-Rod before and should be able make him resemble something of a man in the line-up.

After that, it's just going to be a long-term project if they want to be a consistent contender without having to put the payroll over $200 mil again. Their farm system is bunk, but maybe they can get Brien Taylor back in the system.

[TBLfan 25]

We have a decent system, but with the amount of money available the system needs to be stellar.

[KYHockey3 0]

i love my yankees.

im sad they lost, but there is allways next year......i wonder what star we will buy next year?

i honestly think the yankees will eventually make up the whole allstar team for their division.

and i really doubt half the people who are tigers "fans" were their fans when they had the worst record ever in baseball...cough bandwagon cough

[warrior37 0]

does drinking busch light in the bleachers count as being a 'real' fan?

[KYHockey3 0]

does drinking busch light in the bleachers count as being a 'real' fan?

yes

i mean were u a fan last season, or when they sucked?

[warrior37 0]

well they dont sell busch light in the stadium and ive been going to games since i can remember, back at michigan and trumbull

[mack 44]

I too am a big fan of beer and any team that stuffs it apples-deep in the Yankees.

[warrior37 0]

top of the ninth, two outs, K-Fraud up to bat, my buddy ,it was his bday, shouts "for sure out" too good to be true

[Jason Harris 31]

I've been disappointed for years, and nothing is going to change until Cashman is gone and the Boss smartens up and runs the organization like it should be run.

Look at teams like the Twins... That's how a team should be run and I'm jealous that we can not only run a team like that but be able to afford more superstars in addition to a group of above average young talent.

Instead of that we have guys that are in adult diapers and taking guys out of their elements just to fit them into a lineup. We didn't pick up the relief pitching we should have to relieve the beyond aging starting pitching we have... it's been bad for years, it's just much more apparent for people now. I've been a depressed fan for years, since I realized what Cashman and George have done to the Yankees...

TBL, I don't think your analysis is correct, but I believe you said you were 18 in one post, so I don't think you're old enough to know what happened before their dynasty began in '96.

My dates are going to be off slightly but I think Steinbrenner bought the team around 1973. They won twice in his first six or seven years of owning the team, and while he brought in free agents like Reggie Jackson and Catfish Hunter, the nucleus of the team obviously had been in the farm system when he bought it.

After that, I always felt that Steinbrenner started getting in the way, directing his front office to procure players based on a whim -- kind of "We need players like that...." -- because the Yankees overall had Fantasy League players (Danny Tartabull) but lousy teams for close to fifteen years. Finally, Gene Michael became the GM and somehow was able to direct the franchise to put more resources into the farm system (as well as more money into international free agents, who aren't subject to the draft). The result is the dynasty that happened in the late 90's.

I don't think Cashman deviated much from Gene Michael's successful blueprint, but to an outsider it appears as though Steinbrenner has been pulling more strings the past five years (A-Rod, Sheffield, Randy Johnson, etc), with the result being the Yankees have had more holes than teams with $200 million payrolls should. Simultaneously, the Red Sox have built up their payroll and farm systems and now both teams have to sacrifice the future to win today. (Look at all the ex-Red Sox in the playoffs. Or Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez in Florida; one had 17 homers and 50 SB's, while the other was around 10-2 with a no-hitter.)

My analysis could be wrong, but that's the consensus that my friends and I have come up with. George has started getting impatient the past five years, which isn't a good thing for the Yankees. They've had near-the-top teams, but mostly they've had pitching holes the past few years. Of course, I don't have any complaints about that..... ;)

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

Jason, you are exactly right. That's exactly how it went down.

[KYHockey3 0]

well they dont sell busch light in the stadium and ive been going to games since i can remember, back at michigan and trumbull

so then yes, you obviously didnt jump on the band wagon.

[willc7786 0]

Salming responded before I got a chance to, and he was right on to what TBL said. The LAST thing the Yankees need is Steinbrenner in more control then Cashman. Cashman has been trying for years to get back to the homegrown idea while Steinbrenner has been doing his own thing. Remember, Cashman had all but put ink on paper to sign Vlad Guerero a few years back when, behind his back, the boss signed the much older Sheffield. Steinbrenner insisted that the Yanks sign Johnson mostly just because George always wanted Johnson, even though this isn't the Johnson who beat them in 2001. Cashman will try his best to keep George from decimating this team even further.

Though they'll still sign Zito. And yes, this was a horrible loss for us Yankee fans, but that pitching they faced was incredible. That was the first real good look I had gotten at Zumaya and that kid can straight up bring it. 103mph with shadows? No one could have hit that.

Torre is the last person that should get the blame in this. Was he at the plate for the 20 straight scoreless innings? Yeah, I think he made some mistakes with the line up, and yeah he probably should have pulled Moose in game 2 and put Meyers in for the lefty, but still, Joe Cool has the most important thing; the respect of the true Yanks like Jeter/Rivera/Posada.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

Looks like Joe's staying.

Good riddance Sheff. He's one of those guys who just was not a good fit.

[Chadd 916]

Looks like Joe's staying.

Good riddance Sheff.  He's one of those guys who just was not a good fit.

and you got on my case when I said that a couple years ago. They're going to have to do something with a-rod. There is no way he will be able to do anything right in NY and it would be easier to eat the salary and send him anywhere else than to deal with the constant media attention.

[willc7786 0]

A-Rod needs to go to somewhere like he was in Texas. He can put up staggering individual numbers and break all kinds of records, and never have to worry about the post-season.

Somewhat off-topic, but I was talking to one of my friends and we were talking about the Mets, and I realized this years Mets are a lot like the late 90's yankees, with reyes (jeter), beltran (bernie), lo duca (posada), wright (martinez), wagner (rivera [to a much less degree obviously]), and set up men almost like stanton/nelson where to the yanks. And even though they're injured, pedro (clemens) and el duque (el duque :lol: ). Point being, even though I'm a yankee fan, I'll be rooting for the Mets because they remind me a lot of the team that made me love the Yankees.

[Chadd 916]

A-Rod needs to go to somewhere like he was in Texas. He can put up staggering individual numbers and break all kinds of records, and never have to worry about the post-season.

Somewhat off-topic, but I was talking to one of my friends and we were talking about the Mets, and I realized this years Mets are a lot like the late 90's yankees, with reyes (jeter), beltran (bernie), lo duca (posada), wright (martinez), wagner (rivera [to a much less degree obviously]), and set up men almost like stanton/nelson where to the yanks. And even though they're injured, pedro (clemens) and el duque (el duque :lol: ). Point being, even though I'm a yankee fan, I'll be rooting for the Mets because they remind me a lot of the team that made me love the Yankees.

The Yankees brought all of those guys up from the minors and not as free agents or trades like the Mets did. Ok, Tino was a free agent but he's just an all -around great guy. With all of the trades they have made in recent years, the Yankees have no core of their own young players coming up.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

I'll be rooting for the Mets because they remind me a lot of the team that made me love the Yankees.

No way a self-respecting Yankees fan roots for the Mets. No way.

[supahdon 0]

No, the Twins aren't the shining example of how a team should be built because the A's are consistently better and have little to no money to work with. They dealt away Hudson and Mulder and they're back in the playoffs, could Minnesota do that with Santana?

The A's and Twins are both great organizations with different methods. The payrolls are pretty similar as well.

2002:

Oakland (103-59) - 40.0 million

Minnesota (94-67) - 40.2 million

2003:

Oakland (96-66) - 50.3 million

Minnesota (90-72) - 55.5 million

2004:

Minnesota (92-70) - 53.6 million

Oakland (91-71) - 59.4 million

2005:

Oakland (88-74) - 55.4 million

Minnesota (83-79) - 56.2 million

2006:

Minnesota (96-66) - 63.4 million

Oakland (93-69) - 62.2 million

[mack 44]

Both teams have excellent results from what they're given, but I give more credit to the A's because they end up having to replace more players than the Twins have, at least off the top of my head.

[supahdon 0]

Both teams have excellent results from what they're given, but I give more credit to the A's because they end up having to replace more players than the Twins have, at least off the top of my head.

The A's have had to shed more superstars. Losing Giambi and Tejada and getting nothing back but compensatory draft picks. Really, they haven't gotten much for Hudson (Dan Meyer has been hurt IIRC) but Haren has been much better/cheaper than Mulder the last two seasons.

The Twins have had to replace players as well, although more of the slightly above average variety (the Jacque Jones', Eddie Guardado's, and to a lesser extent David Ortiz who wasn't nearly as awesome then). And just because I love mentioning this to any Giants fan, the Twins absolutely pillaged SF in getting Joe Nathan / Francisco Liriano / Boof Bonser for A.J. Pierzynski. Don't even think Billy Beane can boast a trade that lopsided.

[mack 44]

Probably not, but it was the Giants--these are the same guys that may still be paying Wilson Alvarez to this day.

[DarkStar50 679]

When are one of you Yankee fans going to man up that Jeter is not a true captain? A true-blue Yankee captain(see Thurman Munson, the ultimate Yankee leader) brings a team together not let it drift apart. Jeter can do whatever in the field or at the plate but it is in the clubhouse that captains earn their pin stripes.

There was an article in the NY Daily News that said Damon tried to get the team on track in the clubhouse back in August. All he got in return was a dirty look from Randy Johnson across the clubhouse room. Not exactly the team camraderie you need to pull together as one. So again, where was Captain Jeter to lead?

If the Yankees had beaten the Tigers, everything would be perfect at Yankee Stadium today. The Yankee fans would boast about their great team. All it takes it 3 losses to the Tigers(who had what it takes in the post-season:pitching) to expose the Yankees as not invincible.

Fans forget this is why they play the games. Because David can beat Goliath anytime, anyday. See Lake Placid 1980- USA/Russia for more proof.

I know Munson had his run-ins with Reggie but in the end, it was one for all, all for one.