buy from your lhs!

[acollette49 0]

some of you may remember a couple of posts i made bitching about my vector 7s. i recently broke down and went to my lhs to see if they could fix my skates. after some work, i found they had not gotten any better. yesterday i went to check out some skates. after some conversation we decided to measure my foot (im 29 and have been skating in the same size, 9d, for the last 10 or so years). to my surprise ive been in the wrong size for all this time. i should have been in an 8w/e. so i was fitted for some graf 735s and was even given a very nice deal on them. i havent been this excited to try out a new piece of equipment in a long time....after having spent $500+ on skates that didnt fit, i was more than happy to spend to get something right for me....so thank you to all of the lhs workers who know what they are doing.

[Dante2004 0]

some of you may remember a couple of posts i made bitching about my vector 7s. i recently broke down and went to my lhs to see if they could fix my skates. after some work, i found they had not gotten any better. yesterday i went to check out some skates. after some conversation we decided to measure my foot (im 29 and have been skating in the same size, 9d, for the last 10 or so years). to my surprise ive been in the wrong size for all this time. i should have been in an 8w/e. so i was fitted for some graf 735s and was even given a very nice deal on them. i havent been this excited to try out a new piece of equipment in a long time....after having spent $500+ on skates that didnt fit, i was more than happy to spend to get something right for me....so thank you to all of the lhs workers who know what they are doing.

Not to burst your bubble, but don't lose sight of the fact that each skate manufacture sizes their skates a little different. Maybe you were a 9D in the model/brand skate you were purchasing when you were sized 10 years ago. Also, foot size can change with age...

But, yes, it sure is nice when a pro at your LHS sets you up with some good gear that fits RIGHT! ;-)

[lawryde 0]

It so hard to go to the LHS and justify spending 100's of dollars more for skates, sticks, etc when ebay, hockeymonkey and hockeygiant are out there.

I'll always go to the LHS for small stuff, skate sharpening, and to get any major repair work done on my skates.

I do feel like a dick when I just go in there to try stuff on, get a feel for different sticks etc, and then just leave.

[mack 44]

It's okay to feel like a dick for doing a dick-ish act like that at your LHS if they charge you for a fitting.

[DarkStar50 680]

Interesting concept: The LHS is a dick if he charges a fitting fee but the customer is not for wasting the time of a LHS. The missing ingredient here is choice. The customer has chosen to go to the LHS with the express purpose of not buying skates from him, just using his stock as a fitting service for the customer's benefit to purchase online and save money. The LHS has chosen to put up a fitting fee in order to ensure that the time spent with the customer may be money earned for the LHS. After all, time is money. So, really, it is about choice. The customer has made his choice and the LHS owner has made his choice. That sounds like a free democracy.

[mack 44]

Your reading comprehension is lacking if you thought I said the LHS's charge for a fitting fee is a dickish move.

[DarkStar50 680]

More than my reading comprehension is lacking. You know that. I just thought this idea of choice was interesting since a friend of mine in a similar but different retail environment faces this type of problem. The customer buys the lawn mower from Lowe's and then when the lawn mower breaks, wants my friend's power service shop to fix it. He "chooses" to fix only products he sells, even though he carries the brand! The customer seems to think he is obligated to fix the lawn mower. He is not since he owns the shop. It is an interesting concept. Now I'm waiting for the mass of maniacs to scream once again about how dickish it is for the LHS to charge a fitting fee. Thank God(you again), I'll be in Toronto by the time this stops.

[mack 44]

I'm behind the fitting fee 100%. I love supporting an LHS except mine sucks, so if I had to get skates there I would gladly pay a fitting fee and order elsewhere but luckily I haven't had to go that route. I'm not going to give any business of mine to a place that charges $115 for a Vapor XV shaft just because they're the only shop around.

[TBLfan 25]

In my opinion, the only reason to not buy skates from a LHS is them lacking stock. If they don't have it and can't get it then I'd buy online. That's why I bought my current skates online...

The number one reason why you'd want to buy skates at your LHS is it's benefitting YOU the buyer. Sure you're paying anywhere from $50-150 more depending on what your LHS charges... But you get:

Free fitting = Some places charge $15 for this

Free first sharpening = $20-30

Free Baking = $25=35

Most LHS will cut you a deal on holders or replacement steel and replacing it after you buy from them.

And you don't have to pay for shipping.

Most importantly, you get a skate that fits... and most LHSs will help you out if the skate still doesn't work.

AND after you make a large purchase like skates many LHSs will start to give you a break on other things you're looking for. I actually got a deal yesterday at a LHS because I talked with the guy for a few minutes, this isn't something to expect it's what's given to you, a relationship with the retailer... you don't find that at the large chain stores.

[Dante2004 0]

More than my reading comprehension is lacking. You know that. I just thought this idea of choice was interesting since a friend of mine in a similar but different retail environment faces this type of problem. The customer buys the lawn mower from Lowe's and then when the lawn mower breaks, wants my friend's power service shop to fix it. He "chooses" to fix only products he sells, even though he carries the brand! The customer seems to think he is obligated to fix the lawn mower. He is not since he owns the shop. It is an interesting concept. Now I'm waiting for the mass of maniacs to scream once again about how dickish it is for the LHS to charge a fitting fee. Thank God(you again), I'll be in Toronto by the time this stops.

Just curious...why would your friend not want to fix lawn mowers bought somewhere else? Business is business...

Wouldn't that be equivalent to my LHS refusing to sharpen my skates because they knew I bought them online?

[sdcopp 1]

More than my reading comprehension is lacking. You know that. I just thought this idea of choice was interesting since a friend of mine in a similar but different retail environment faces this type of problem. The customer buys the lawn mower from Lowe's and then when the lawn mower breaks, wants my friend's power service shop to fix it. He "chooses" to fix only products he sells, even though he carries the brand! The customer seems to think he is obligated to fix the lawn mower. He is not since he owns the shop. It is an interesting concept. Now I'm waiting for the mass of maniacs to scream once again about how dickish it is for the LHS to charge a fitting fee. Thank God(you again), I'll be in Toronto by the time this stops.

Just curious...why would your friend not want to fix lawn mowers bought somewhere else? Business is business...

Wouldn't that be equivalent to my LHS refusing to sharpen my skates because they knew I bought them online?

Because the service work doesn't move inventory. You can run service work for things like hockey equipment or mowers out of a home garage and make money, but when you have lease/mortgage costs, utilities, employees and inventory you need that inventory to move and make you money more than you need someone who saved 10% somewhere else and pays a minimum for your time and costs.

[mackallica 0]

"Just curious...why would your friend not want to fix lawn mowers bought somewhere else? Business is business...

Wouldn't that be equivalent to my LHS refusing to sharpen my skates because they knew I bought them online? "

True. The "not-fixing-lawn-mower concept is confusing. Charge for a fix is money. Just because he won't fix it doesn't mean they're shopping with him next time. I would be inclined to steer clear of a place that wouldn't fix my mower just because I didn't buy it from them. In the business world, your going to have competition. You just have to live with it.

[sdcopp 1]

True. The "not-fixing-lawn-mower concept is confusing. Charge for a fix is money. Just because he won't fix it doesn't mean they're shopping with you next time. I would be inclined to steer clear of a place that wouldn't fix my mower just because I didn't buy it from them. In the business world, your going to have competition. You just have to live with it.

And in the business world they will usually tell you to deal with either the manufacturer directly or the point of purchase. You just have to live with that. As a business owner, you're out to run your business, not your business and everybody elses problems. It doesn't pay out the way you'd think it does for service work vs selling inventory and it could quickly overwhelm you if you did.

[TBLfan 25]

Well I'm sure that they have to repair the mowers that they do sell... And if they fix this guy's mower, they need to fix the next guy's mower and soo on. Not only does this NOT move their product but it's taking away time they have to back their own sales and products by fixing them.

[Dante2004 0]

More than my reading comprehension is lacking. You know that. I just thought this idea of choice was interesting since a friend of mine in a similar but different retail environment faces this type of problem. The customer buys the lawn mower from Lowe's and then when the lawn mower breaks, wants my friend's power service shop to fix it. He "chooses" to fix only products he sells, even though he carries the brand! The customer seems to think he is obligated to fix the lawn mower. He is not since he owns the shop. It is an interesting concept. Now I'm waiting for the mass of maniacs to scream once again about how dickish it is for the LHS to charge a fitting fee. Thank God(you again), I'll be in Toronto by the time this stops.

Just curious...why would your friend not want to fix lawn mowers bought somewhere else? Business is business...

Wouldn't that be equivalent to my LHS refusing to sharpen my skates because they knew I bought them online?

Because the service work doesn't move inventory. You can run service work for things like hockey equipment or mowers out of a home garage and make money, but when you have lease/mortgage costs, utilities, employees and inventory you need that inventory to move and make you money more than you need someone who saved 10% somewhere else and pays a minimum for your time and costs.

That is why you have salesmen AND repair men. If you DO service the persons lawnmower you make a few bucks and potentially earn a future customer. Also, this may not be the case for a lawn mower, but in other industries it is quite possible that the shop makes more on the tune up they charge $50 for, than the $400 mower they sold. Carrying costs, etc...eat into already narrow profit margins pretty darn fast.

Well I'm sure that they have to repair the mowers that they do sell... And if they fix this guy's mower, they need to fix the next guy's mower and soo on. Not only does this NOT move their product but it's taking away time they have to back their own sales and products by fixing them.

Too much business is a good thing...just hire more people.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Free fitting = Some places charge $15

Free first sharpening = $20-30

Free Baking = $25=35

Skating in skates that fit properly: Priceless.

[TBLfan 25]

costs money to make money. Most smaller shops can't afford to spend that money as they are already in debt because they had to buy the current stock they have. It takes time and a lot of it too.

[sdcopp 1]

and if the service work doesn't constitute enough income to hire additional people, but your waning sales ensure that you couldn't if you wanted to because people are out looking to save a few dollars, followed usually by the "exhorbitant" prices you have to charge for service work that could've been free or greatly reduced had they shopped you in the first place.

In order to remain competitive in the marketplace, smaller businesses have to move existing inventory to get new inventory. When you compare them to a massive corporation, they have nowhere near the buying power and margin in their product to do business the same way.

Hockeygiant is the best example of this, where they have huge buying power so they can purchase with great bulk rates for previous model closeouts and the like and then undercut any and every LHS by a few points to dangle the carrot for consumers who don't do the math all the way through and see that supporting the LHS is just as cost effective when the dust settles.

I think the fitting fee is a great thing. You want free sizing? Go to Sports Authority or another big box store with inept staff and size for free.

[jmiro 55]

hey i dont even have a local hockey shop. even the one 45minutes away just mail orders what you want. then i have to drive back to get it if he ever decides to order it. It usaully takes weeks if not months for him to get stuff in. His inventory is so poor that he only ever has a couple items in stock. Usually low end of the same brand in random sizes. then when you want to get work done or order something it takes for ever and usually isnt what you asked for. The thing that kills me is the guy would make a killing if he ever had anything. He deals to minor league teams so he doesnt care. my buddy ordered two pair of custom boots off him. it took six months to get them when all was said and done the guy lost money on them because he ordered the wrong boots.

[Jarick 5]

I guess I have a weird situation because I have at least a dozen LHS's including a couple HockeyGiant retail locations. So I kind of got the best of all worlds when I was able to drive around and figure out the prices of skates, then go to the HockeyGiant (which sells the skates same price as online) and get fitted, then get them baked for free, then take them to a competent LHS and pay $5 to have them sharpened.

I do support the LHS that does great skate sharpenings by getting them sharpened a couple times a month, plus buying lots of tape, wax and other little things there (which should be high-margin since who does comparison shopping for loose rolls of tape?).

Oh, and after working at Best Buy / Geek Squad, I can tell you that large items typically have 5 to 15 percent margin depending on the item, and services typically have 75 to 90 percent margin. If you do it right, you would provide services and repair (for a fee) and make a lot of money. Skate sharpening takes what, 5 minutes, for $5 US and at even a high wage of $15 for your average kid working at a LHS, that's about 70% margin after taking into account fixed and operating costs.

[sdcopp 1]

Oh, and after working at Best Buy / Geek Squad, I can tell you that large items typically have 5 to 15 percent margin depending on the item, and services typically have 75 to 90 percent margin. If you do it right, you would provide services and repair (for a fee) and make a lot of money. Skate sharpening takes what, 5 minutes, for $5 US and at even a high wage of $15 for your average kid working at a LHS, that's about 70% margin after taking into account fixed and operating costs.

You're talking completely hard costs here. You didn't account for ANY of the soft costs. How much time and money did the shop owner/manager spend training the kid before the kid is able to contribute to the money making for the shop. LHS aren't known for excrutiatingly high pay either, so let's go out on a limb and say 8.00 per hour for pay, 5.00 a sharpening. How many sharpenings on an average day? 20? 30? 40? Lets go with 50.

So 250.00 in profit from sharpening. Kid worked minimum 5 hrs after school probably, 10 pairs of skates an hour. 210 left. 2000 a month for lease, 67 a day. 143 left. 500 a month in utilities, 17 a day. 126 left. 200 a month for phone, internet, etc, 7 a day. 119 left. 400 a month for all your office and business supplies, 13.50 a day. 105.50 left. 100 a month for possible rental equipment, advertsising costs, website costs, etc, etc. 3.50 a day. 102. The owner of this shops profits 102 dollars for that five hours with which they have to save money for the business when times are bad and pay themselves to pay bills. No account for 3-4 days of 20 sharpening by said kid, losing the business money but sitting on inventory that has enough margin to make up for it if joe blow isn't as worried about the 10% hard cost from online.

I understand that these numbers may not be entirely accurate, but I'm sure there are other costs I have missed as well. At 10 sharpenings an hours, that's 6 minutes for sharpenings with that kid busting his hump to get it done, people rang up, etc. Looks like you need another person at 8 an hour, lather rinse repeat.

[MLSman 22]

I feel the same way. Within an hour of me, I have 3 LHS. It is nice to have a choice, and between them carry every product I need. I ONLY buy online when I can't get what I want from them within reasonable cost. Usually that is only once or twice a year for obscure items (like my HS22 mirrored visor). Their knowledge and their ability to take care of issues always bring me back.

I could easily save more money as a whole going online, but it is so worth the extra money to know when things go bad I have people that can take care of it....no questions asked. That to me is the greatest advantage to the LHS....and they genuinely seek your opinion on their future purchase decisions. It is kinda cool knowing that some of the products they carry are due to your opinions and desires.

Oh, and after working at Best Buy / Geek Squad, I can tell you that large items typically have 5 to 15 percent margin depending on the item, and services typically have 75 to 90 percent margin. If you do it right, you would provide services and repair (for a fee) and make a lot of money. Skate sharpening takes what, 5 minutes, for $5 US and at even a high wage of $15 for your average kid working at a LHS, that's about 70% margin after taking into account fixed and operating costs.

You're talking completely hard costs here. You didn't account for ANY of the soft costs. How much time and money did the shop owner/manager spend training the kid before the kid is able to contribute to the money making for the shop. LHS aren't known for excrutiatingly high pay either, so let's go out on a limb and say 8.00 per hour for pay, 5.00 a sharpening. How many sharpenings on an average day? 20? 30? 40? Lets go with 50.

So 250.00 in profit from sharpening. Kid worked minimum 5 hrs after school probably, 10 pairs of skates an hour. 210 left. 2000 a month for lease, 67 a day. 143 left. 500 a month in utilities, 17 a day. 126 left. 200 a month for phone, internet, etc, 7 a day. 119 left. 400 a month for all your office and business supplies, 13.50 a day. 105.50 left. 100 a month for possible rental equipment, advertsising costs, website costs, etc, etc. 3.50 a day. 102. The owner of this shops profits 102 dollars for that five hours with which they have to save money for the business when times are bad and pay themselves to pay bills. No account for 3-4 days of 20 sharpening by said kid, losing the business money but sitting on inventory that has enough margin to make up for it if joe blow isn't as worried about the 10% hard cost from online.

I understand that these numbers may not be entirely accurate, but I'm sure there are other costs I have missed as well. At 10 sharpenings an hours, that's 6 minutes for sharpenings with that kid busting his hump to get it done, people rang up, etc. Looks like you need another person at 8 an hour, lather rinse repeat.

I can't agree with you more here....it is pretty simple. Any sporting equipment business is purely a volume driven business, as the LHS has to compete with online costs as well as the overhead of operational cost. Unlike other service oriented businesses, like the computer industry, a hockey shop can't pay a sharpener $75 dollars an hour and put them on contract with someone else for $175 to $250 an hour.

Volume dictates their profitability.

[DarkStar50 680]

Just to clarify the lawn mower example. When a customer chooses to go to Lowe's to save a few bucks on a lawn mower, he is too busy thinking about the money he is saving to look at the big picture. What happens if the lawn mower needs to be repaired? Lowe's does not offer a repair service. The same way Hockeyonline shop cannot fix your cracked holder in 1 hour. So, my friend's decision as store owner is to choose to service the guys who do buy from him all the time. These guys are buying bigger and better product. They are spending more money with Bob and his shop than Joe Nickelpincher, who shops at Lowe's. Bob chooses to service the guys who give him their business. It is a symbiotic relationship. Joe N needs his lawn mower fixed once in a blue moon and thinks Bob should fix it immediately. Bob can make the decision if he wants to or not. He is not obligated to. He is really not losing business to Joe N because Joe N never gave Bob his business in the first place!

sdcopp, you understand this dynamic perfectly. TBLfan understands the value of the LHS and how one hand washes the other. Dante, at a LHS the repair man is also the salesman!! So while I spend 45 minutes fixing the holder on the broken CCM Rapide bought at the Sports Authority, I am not spending 45 minutes on the sales floor selling product that equals inventory dollars. Be careful with this idea of buying a hockey rink. There will be a pro shop in the rink and often enough, the pro shop helps to make or break the rink in terms of how good or bad it is run as a business, not as a clubhouse.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Well I'm sure that they have to repair the mowers that they do sell... And if they fix this guy's mower, they need to fix the next guy's mower and soo on. Not only does this NOT move their product but it's taking away time they have to back their own sales and products by fixing them.

This would make sense if the warrantied product were being repaired for free. The mower store is almost certainly getting paid by the manufacturer for repairs made under warranty, whether sold at their shop or at another. Unless this guy's service department is completely swamped, I don't understand why they'd turn away business. And even if that were the case, it seems the rational thing to do would be to hire more service people, not turn good business away.

[DarkStar50 680]

Bob's shop is a small business. He is not in the position to hire more service guys, nor does he need to. Why hire a service guy to fix small repair jobs? He would pay out another salary greater than the volume of service work that employee could produce. Good business is servicing the customers who buy from your shop to start with. Those customers are the ones keeping you in business to begin with. Not the guy shopping for deals at the Big Box store or online who then has a problem that he cannot get solved at the Big Box store with no repair department or online shops who have shipping costs and time factored into the repair problem. One of the oldest sayings in retail is "With the sale, comes the service." It may not sound nice in black and white but when its 40+ hours a week, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, then that saying begins to make a lot of sense.