Therma Blade

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

I have it on pretty good authority that Bauer has been sniffing around these for a while now. I'm certain that there will be a high end, top dog, Bauer skate with these blades on it in the next couple of years.

And I have it on damned good authority that they debunked it.

You should read this whole thread.

Anyhoo...back to discussion.

[DarkStar50 679]

puck_it,

What size holder are you looking for to skate on?

Whether or not you feel qualified to take them for a test drive, maybe we could help you get the opportunity to find out for yourself.

255's I've got a small foot. Thought, dont worry about it, I dont really have a pair of skates I'd be willing to test them on. I'm not going to mess with my vectors, and after I had ankle surgery my tacks would simply be too painful to wear. not to mention they're pretty broken down. Thank you for the offer, though.

My test pair is 254! I know how you feel about taking holders off your Vectors, your #1 pair of skates. I put the 254s on Vapor XXs first, not my #1 pair of skates.

[yorkualum 0]

I have it on pretty good authority that Bauer has been sniffing around these for a while now. I'm certain that there will be a high end, top dog, Bauer skate with these blades on it in the next couple of years.

And I have it on damned good authority that they debunked it.

You should read this whole thread.

Anyhoo...back to discussion.

we'll see....

[mrusse01 0]

I accidentally left one of my TB blades "off" during a practice, and frankly I didn't know until I took them off.

You realize this completely invalidates your previous comments where you claim you were able to 'feel' an improvement with the thermablades, right?

It's like if someone gave you a bottle of a new brand of vitamins and told you they are this brand new discovery that makes you feel better. You start taking them and you don't believe it, but you actually feel better. After a few days someone secretly switches the vitamins with sugar pills...so now you are taking the sugar pills which do nothing, but you don't report that you feel any worse.

If I had to wager, I'd say thermablades do improve performance, and certainly feel 'different'. But any improvement/difference is a result of the quality steel, wider blade, and different holder that they are using, and not the result of a heated blade.

The problem is if you try to market just an improved quality of steel and a wider blade, nobody is going to buy it - and certainly not for $400. So what are you going to do? You come up with a sexy 'new technology' like a heated blade, throw a bunch of marketing behind it and now people are talking. Skates with batteries in it? That's crazy! It's banned in bobsledding/speed skating...it must work! (think back to the original Air Jordan's 'Banned by the NBA' ad campaign). Now people are trying your holders with wider, higher quality steel, and they are saying 'jeez...this does feel different, I think I can glide better/turn faster/etc...it must be the heated steel!'.

In the end I believe it's the pros who are going to decide if these things really take off or not. It doesn't matter if people can tell visually if pros are wearing thermablades or not, if within a few years say half the guys in the league have them on then I can guarantee you that they will sell and sell well at the retail level.

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

I have it on pretty good authority that Bauer has been sniffing around these for a while now. I'm certain that there will be a high end, top dog, Bauer skate with these blades on it in the next couple of years.

And I have it on damned good authority that they debunked it.

You should read this whole thread.

Anyhoo...back to discussion.

we'll see....

READ the thread. You even have the director of R&D at NBH posting in the thread.

Trust me. I wish I could tell you what I know.

[Hipster 5]

I accidentally left one of my TB blades "off" during a practice, and frankly I didn't know until I took them off.

You realize this completely invalidates your previous comments where you claim you were able to 'feel' an improvement with the thermablades, right?

It doesn't invalidate everything. Assume for a second that I'm an honest and intelligent person who is not prone to blatant contradiction. You never know, It could happen. :D

If you are at the gym and are used to lifting up a certain amount of weight and someone says, hey I'm going to put an extra 10 lbs on the bar...you would likely feel the difference because you were paying attention and your reference points were pretty close together

If the same guy puts 10 lbs more on the bar than your usual and doesn't tell you before you come in one day. You might not notice until you did your next set and found the extra weight there.

Regarding TB's, you can feel the difference. Its just not such a drastic difference that your immediate attention is drawn to it. I've cut myself in a game and not known I was bleeding pretty hard unitil someone told me. I've sliced my lip and known immediately from the pain. Same amount of blood, just different degrees of pain.

See what I mean? I think I said in my first comments on these blades that the difference was not an "Oh my God, what a difference" feel. Its not. We're talking about fine differences that take keen perception. Its like the difference in sound between two piano keys right next to each other, not two piano keys on opposite ends.

So, your honor, if it pleases the court, I submit that the defendant did not completely invalidate his prior testimony and ask that said client's sworn affidavit be admitted to the record and that he be released on his own recognizance. :D

[Hipster 5]

In the end I believe it's the pros who are going to decide if these things really take off or not. It doesn't matter if people can tell visually if pros are wearing thermablades or not, if within a few years say half the guys in the league have them on then I can guarantee you that they will sell and sell well at the retail level.

I agree with this completely. Here are my, hopefully, logical conclusions

• A tangible difference in feel does not always equate to a tangible difference in performance.
  

• When identifying the true source of the feel differences, Identifying an attribute other than the advertised feature that the difference in feel could be attributed to does not mean the featured attribute is debunked or disproven. It just means the diagnosis is more complex.
  

• Even a benefit that is so infintesimal as to be insignificant over one time frame may be a much bigger deal over a longer time frame. Stopping smoking and exercising won't make you superman today, but when you are 75 and still banging puck bunnies, you might see a big benefit in hindsight.
  

• A companies decision to market or not market a product may or may not have any bearing on the efficacy of the product. If there is a benefit, but only a slight one that is hard to perceive and usually only by certain users over time is not likely to be very interesting to any company for profit.
  

Thermablades may or may not work on a scientific basis. They may or may not work differently for different people with different usage patterns. They may or may not work in ways that people can easily measure or perceive. The market for these may or may not be large enough to survive which may or may not have anything to do with the efficacy of their product.

So you see....its all very simple and completely black and white...like most things, which is why we all agree on everything and divorce lawyers drive Hyundais. :lol: .

[DarkStar50 679]

I accidentally left one of my TB blades "off" during a practice, and frankly I didn't know until I took them off.

You realize this completely invalidates your previous comments where you claim you were able to 'feel' an improvement with the thermablades, right?

It doesn't invalidate everything. Assume for a second that I'm an honest and intelligent person who is not prone to blatant contradiction. You never know, It could happen. :D

If you are at the gym and are used to lifting up a certain amount of weight and someone says, hey I'm going to put an extra 10 lbs on the bar...you would likely feel the difference because you were paying attention and your reference points were pretty close together

If the same guy puts 10 lbs more on the bar than your usual and doesn't tell you before you come in one day. You might not notice until you did your next set and found the extra weight there.

Regarding TB's, you can feel the difference. Its just not such a drastic difference that your immediate attention is drawn to it. I've cut myself in a game and not known I was bleeding pretty hard unitil someone told me. I've sliced my lip and known immediately from the pain. Same amount of blood, just different degrees of pain.

See what I mean? I think I said in my first comments on these blades that the difference was not an "Oh my God, what a difference" feel. Its not. We're talking about fine differences that take keen perception. Its like the difference in sound between two piano keys right next to each other, not two piano keys on opposite ends.

So, your honor, if it pleases the court, I submit that the defendant did not completely invalidate his prior testimony and ask that said client's sworn affidavit be admitted to the record and that he be released on his own recognizance. :D

This is the most accurate statement in the entire thread.

There comes a time in every player's experience with a OPS where he has the "Oh my God" moment and lets go a shot unlike any other shot he has ever taken. It is the OPS giving you that OMG moment.

Do not expect the OMG moment from TB. It will probably never happen. There are too many variables in the skater, the surface, and more unknowns to make it equal across the board for everyone to get the same exact feel/result from TB. Something may or not happen if you use the TB. It's all up to the player and his skill set. So maybe the hype is too much but the product does have benefits that we should continue to examine in this thread.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

And it looks like we return to my mention of significance.

---

re: this stuff....

we'll see....

READ the thread. You even have the director of R&D at NBH posting in the thread.

Trust me. I wish I could tell you what I know.

let me make it easy for you....

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...st&p=482151

This was probably one of the better arguments in the thread, and coincidentally the thermodynamics discussed is a far more accurate portrayal of the conceptual side of the blades. When you start moving (especially the faster you go), the systems parameters change.

[VakarLajos 5]

And it looks like we return to my mention of significance.

---

re: this stuff....

we'll see....

READ the thread. You even have the director of R&D at NBH posting in the thread.

Trust me. I wish I could tell you what I know.

let me make it easy for you....

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...st&p=482151

This was probably one of the better arguments in the thread, and coincidentally the thermodynamics discussed is a far more accurate portrayal of the conceptual side of the blades. When you start moving (especially the faster you go), the systems parameters change.

Thanks for re-posting that post. Great arguments from a guy with some pretty heavy clout.

I would like to see you get your hands on a pair of these and do some testing. Best of luck.

[Hipster 5]

let me make it easy for you....

I know better than to think this is a slam dunk either way.

Are you at all open to the possibility that it is not so easy?

This would explain why speed tests do not show a benefit. According to their own expert, there is no reason to expect a benefit if you are skating faster than 11.2 mph, as you would certainly expect in a full-out test involving any half-decent skater.

When was the last time anyone ever skated the same speed for a whole game let alone a whole shift? Gretzky made a career of gliding low flat and wide in the offensive zone and then making a quick move into the slot as the puck arrived.

And if there was a speed benefit at lower speeds, what was that benefit over various distances and times? Did that benefit compound as the human physiological metrics changed over time? See...stating it's "Easy" does not add credibility to a truly scientific asessment.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that perhaps you are assuming you are right because the results you see or anticipate not seeing might not fit tightly into the metrics and methods you feel are definitive.

What are your thoughts about time horizons as it pertains to statistically insignicant marginal outcomes? Are there not scientific models that suggest a tiny difference over one sample might have a cumulative effect over 1000 samples?.

There are so many variables to this equation, that I'm absolutely certain any capable scientist would quickly recognize that or at least appreciate the difficulties of testing for a static outcome in a highly variable dynamic model. The possible variations in conditions, test methodolgies and metrics are huge. Then you multiply each of those by the variables of the end users, and its not simple at all. Not by a long shot.

Focusing on such a limited number of datapoints either positive or negative and declaring an outcome is not going to have any validity. I agree with you that Thermablades has not made their case. I agree with you that they have inherent bias. I am not, however, prepared to say that their lack of evidence proves a negative result or proves unethical practices. Four out of five dentists probably don't prefer Trident. Does that mean Trident is perpetrating unethical fraud? I know why Thermablades is willing to run whatever they have on the positive side. They have a financial stake in it being a positive outcome. That has absolutely no weight in making the opposite case true.

I have no doubt that anyone who saw fit could cull enough datapoints to make a heartfelt, but inconclusive argument either way.

TB's testing may be all wet, I don't know, but I'm not prepared to say that it is wrong based simply on one person's word that the tests are not right, therefore they are wrong. That's not scientific at all, is it? I think if a scientist wants to scientifically debunk these things, then they'd have to make a more comprehensive and convincing affirmative case. Logically, it does not follow that an invalid test methodology equates to a negative result, does it? You cannot categorically dismiss any result positive or negative based simply by stating the tests that DO exist are wrong or incomplete. You'd need complete testing that shows no significance under any methodology or timeframe, wouldn't you?

I look forward to good testing and sound results, either way. Until then, I'll stick with my informed opinion.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

let me make it easy for you....

I know better than to think this is a slam dunk either way.

Are you at all open to the possibility that it is not so easy?

you took my comment out of context. JR pointed the member to read the thread as a NBH R&D member posted in the thread, proof to counter the members thoughts that NBH was interested, as it's demonstrative that they are not. I remembered roughly when the post was, so "let me make it easy for you" in that "here's a link, so you dont have to dig 25 pages." And as in "let me make it easy for you JR, I'll put the post you're alluding to in front of him".

But I'm glad you wasted your time rebutting a comment that was in no way meant to be argumentative.

[Hipster 5]

Alternative ideas:

Finally - it would be a heck of a lot less $$ and more universally accepted to make on bench blade heaters. A big strip to put your skates on, or a personal verison. Sort of like F1 cars use the tire blankets, then hit the track. Theory being the friction from the ice, while you are on the ice will sustain your blade temps for your 30 sec - 1 minute shift.

So 2 minutes heating (on bench), 1 minute skating, 2 minutes heating etc.

Thrasha #81

As long as they don't call that product or anyone who uses it "Benchwarmers" LOL.

[Hipster 5]

But I'm glad you wasted your time rebutting a comment that was in no way meant to be argumentative.

Argumentative? I don't know where I could have gotten such an idea

Scientific terminology of professional physicists

Showed my TB's to a friend who's developed multiple Olympic Gold medalists in speedskating. He said he's glad they banned them in speedskating because they've already reduced air drag as much as possible with the Nike swift suit and that only leaves friction and the human and since technique is the only other way to reduce friction, he'd rather put more of the premium on his ability to coach technique better than the next guy. He said that friction is the final frontier, that's why they banned all forms of oil lubes that used to be prevalent.

And thanks for reintroducing the sarcasm into what was quickly becoming a respectable discussion. Let us know when you've got that proof that reducing friction doesn't improve glide, professor.

[Chadd 916]

Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya.....

[Hipster 5]

Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya.....

Understood. Puck-it does point out some valid concerns that any buyer would be foolish not to look into and consider for themselves.

I do think there is a difference in the function of these blades related to the heating element that changes the feel. Not by much, but it changes the feel.

We may not agree on the existence of a difference, or how much of a difference is enough to be significant, but What Puck-it and I DO agree on is that it has yet to be shown convincingly if a difference, real or perceived, has any useful benefit. I am a little more open to that possibility, but I understand Puck-it's skepticism.

I will write another anecdotal review soon and I'll try to be as balanced as I can. I think anyone considering these for purchase should find opinions on both sides and do more than their average research so that they do not experience buyer's remorse or post purchase puffery.

The "science" that sells most sporting equipment is right about on par with Fat pills and hair-loss remedies. That doesn't mean the benefit is non-existent, it just may not be what you were sold on.

Anyone buying these at this point is an early adopter. As long as they are aware of the preliminary information risk and the cost, then I don't think they are suckers. Thermablades are sporting equipment, not insulin medication. Besides any truth in advertising laws, unbalanced research in marketing is no shock. That's what marketing is about. That's why Bauer and CCM have to buy their ad space seperately, neither is about to sing the praises of the other and neither is going to point out the holes in their own products. That's what MSH is best at.

[DarkStar50 679]

Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya.....

Understood. Puck-it does point out some valid concerns that any buyer would be foolish not to look into and consider for themselves.

I do think there is a difference in the function of these blades related to the heating element that changes the feel. Not by much, but it changes the feel.

We may not agree on the existence of a difference, or how much of a difference is enough to be significant, but What Puck-it and I DO agree on is that it has yet to be shown convincingly if a difference, real or perceived, has any useful benefit. I am a little more open to that possibility, but I understand Puck-it's skepticism.

I will write another anecdotal review soon and I'll try to be as balanced as I can. I think anyone considering these for purchase should find opinions on both sides and do more than their average research so that they do not experience buyer's remorse or post purchase puffery.

The "science" that sells most sporting equipment is right about on par with Fat pills and hair-loss remedies. That doesn't mean the benefit is non-existent, it just may not be what you were sold on.

Anyone buying these at this point is an early adopter. As long as they are aware of the preliminary information risk and the cost, then I don't think they are suckers. Thermablades are sporting equipment, not insulin medication. Besides any truth in advertising laws, unbalanced research in marketing is no shock. That's what marketing is about. That's why Bauer and CCM have to buy their ad space seperately, neither is about to sing the praises of the other and neither is going to point out the holes in their own products. That's what MSH is best at.

Another interesting point that raises the question about Thermablade going to NBH, RBK, or Easton with their product. Since the three vendors have already invested time, money, and research into developing and marketing their own holder/runner sets, what incentive do they have to get in bed with a competitive product that each vendor already provides? The research done by these vendors to validate their decision to not use TB on their boots may or may not have a bias(real or imagined) built into their research. How much is it in their best interest to say they should or should not take on TB? The vendors are using their own tests on TB, not an outside agency. For the sake of this discussion, I am only presenting these ideas as another example of the fact that there are three sides to every story. I hope everyone keeps an open mind to this thought and this thread as it continues.

[Hipster 5]

I had a conversation a few years ago about marketing with a Pharmaceutical industry executive. (part of my job) At that time anyway, Merck, Pfizer and a few other biggees had enough research budget to buy the ENTIRE biotech industry lock stock and barrel and take the competition out. They didn't, according to this executive, because they know two things:

Most biotechs fail, so why waste that money. wait to see what flies.

Without a blockbuster application (like cancer or erectile dysfunction ) most biotechs with an approved product will crawl to them on hands and knees when they see how much slaes, marketing and distribution infrastructure costs.

The book is still out on TB. If they work, and show promise, one of the majors will come calling. Right now, why would anyone do that until they actually know more about future demand? They can afford to wait and see. If Thermablades take off, then they're going to need the resources of one of the majors to maximize profits.

Hockey industry survivors are no longer run like Mom & Pop shops at least not at the OEM level. Check this out: Graf Canada taps into Wilfred Laurier School of Biz & Econ

[hunterphfr 12]

Hockey industry survivors are no longer run like Mom & Pop shops at least not at the OEM level. Check this out: Graf Canada taps into Wilfred Laurier School of Biz & Econ

Hey that's where I went to school. They consistantly have a pretty decent hockey team.

Next year hopefully Kor follows suit.

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

Another interesting point that raises the question about Thermablade going to NBH, RBK, or Easton with their product. Since the three vendors have already invested time, money, and research into developing and marketing their own holder/runner sets, what incentive do they have to get in bed with a competitive product that each vendor already provides?

If it provided an absolute advantage, they could put it on a high-end boot and market the hell out of it. That would be the incentive.

The research done by these vendors to validate their decision to not use TB on their boots may or may not have a bias(real or imagined) built into their research.

They wouldn't have a reason to skew anything. You'd expect them to really be accurate with their research, because what if the competitor picks it up instead and does well with it, and they had a chance to get it first?

[tsanga 0]

Hockey industry survivors are no longer run like Mom & Pop shops at least not at the OEM level. Check this out: Graf Canada taps into Wilfred Laurier School of Biz & Econ

Mike Hill, president, and CEO, explained Graf Canada’s philosophy: “We’re a product company, not a marketing company.”

I hope the marketing students didn't try to change what the company is.

[DarkStar50 679]

Another interesting point that raises the question about Thermablade going to NBH, RBK, or Easton with their product. Since the three vendors have already invested time, money, and research into developing and marketing their own holder/runner sets, what incentive do they have to get in bed with a competitive product that each vendor already provides?

If it provided an absolute advantage, they could put it on a high-end boot and market the hell out of it. That would be the incentive.

The research done by these vendors to validate their decision to not use TB on their boots may or may not have a bias(real or imagined) built into their research.

They wouldn't have a reason to skew anything. You'd expect them to really be accurate with their research, because what if the competitor picks it up instead and does well with it, and they had a chance to get it first?

My thinking for your second point is mistakes happen. My thinking for your first point has been mentioned before, time will tell. Just keeping an open mind.

[yorkualum 0]

Do you really think the director of R&D at NBH goes by the name O-Z? There are some fantastic points made that I'm sure are accurate. Funny- everyone who didn't invent these blades is dead set against them and are pulling out the scientific artillery to discount them.

I'm in the hockey industry and from what I heard, Thermablade is not (or was not) interested in selling to the big guys because they thought they had the latest and greatest invention on their hands. Why would you sell it to a company who is considered a competitor (with their existing holders).

I'm sure that NBH will say they aren't interested because they had no chance at the start, but if these blades work, there isn't one sane reason why they wouldn't want to have TB's on a high end skate. If anyone can market a $1200 skate, its NBH..... and they would sell way more than you think.

[Reaper 0]

Do you really think the director of R&D at NBH goes by the name O-Z?

Seeing how connected the mods on this site are in the hockey industry I doubt that they were fooled into changing a poster's title to that title without knowing some things that you don't know.

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

Do you really think the director of R&D at NBH goes by the name O-Z? There are some fantastic points made that I'm sure are accurate. Funny- everyone who didn't invent these blades is dead set against them and are pulling out the scientific artillery to discount them.

I'm in the hockey industry and from what I heard, Thermablade is not (or was not) interested in selling to the big guys because they thought they had the latest and greatest invention on their hands. Why would you sell it to a company who is considered a competitor (with their existing holders).

I'm sure that NBH will say they aren't interested because they had no chance at the start, but if these blades work

Ken Covo's been posting on MSH since the beginning - in fact, even on the site that preceded ours.. Matter of fact, I was in his office in Quebec two months ago. He does exist.

What do you do in the hockey industry? It sure sounds like someone's feeding you bad info.