skating too bent over at waist

[Hockeydog 8]

A am an ault old fart skater, a young 37 !! Been skating for about 10 years off and on, just recently decided to start playing hockey rather than just watch, been playing about 1 year. I have a background in Tennis so I have strong legs, but I'll start the wall sits. I try and do a lot of single leg work, lunges, 1 legged deadlifts, and have recebtly started the one leg squats, with just body weight for now. I'll try the two images you suggest, rather than just bending the knees. Thanks to all for the kindness and willingness to help out !!

[biff44 0]

If you can not skate upright with skates right out of the box, you obviously have a technique problem. Don't listen to anyone trying to sell you some custom grind hoping that is will magically teach you how to balance!!!!!!! and !

[ktang 34]

A am an ault old fart skater, a young 37 !! Been skating for about 10 years off and on, just recently decided to start playing hockey rather than just watch, been playing about 1 year. I have a background in Tennis so I have strong legs, but I'll start the wall sits. I try and do a lot of single leg work, lunges, 1 legged deadlifts, and have recebtly started the one leg squats, with just body weight for now. I'll try the two images you suggest, rather than just bending the knees. Thanks to all for the kindness and willingness to help out !!

I'm 40, been skating for 37 yrs, and it has been hard for me to get low properly the last 5 (or more) years. It used to be so easy and natural, but the legs aren't as strong so if I don't think about it I bend at the waist. Even my wife and son notice it.

If someone takes a picture or video of you, see if you can draw a straight line from the balls of the feet through the knees to your shoulders as you are crouched. Some say it's even better if the alignment is balls of the feet - knees - chin. But, this might also be dependent on body proportions.

[Dangles919 0]

Im gonna agree with some the the guys on the profile thing cuz I know when i had my skates profile to my weight and postion it compeletely change the amount of power i got with every stride... also a friend of mine who coaches at the college level helped the girls team i coach and told them this little trick where u remember to keeps ur nose knees and toes in line which is "suposedly" the form to use when skating... hopefully this helps

[Hockeydog 8]

Thanks Dangles!! I'll use that visual. Loved the movie about your hometown!

[echi24 1]

i dont see a problem with skating very bent at the waist. i have always skated this way, and never been told it was a technique issue in all the years i've played. i get a lot of knee bend in, but when i am skating hard my arms are pumping and my back is almost parallel to the ground (a bit of an exaggeration). this is how i learned to skate, and i've never had issues with it.

[D aka speck 0]

Maybe I'm way off base here, but... humans tend to walk and run very upright. Keeping knees bent is actually a little unnatural and has to be learned. For me personally, I've found some of the best pratice drills are edge drills. I recently had the opportunity to learn some drills turning on one leg, both inside and outside edge. If I bent too much at the waist I would stumble forward, likewise, if I straightened my knee my skate would slip. Again, my personal experience but I hope it may help.

[ctaz 0]

i dont see a problem with skating very bent at the waist. i have always skated this way, and never been told it was a technique issue in all the years i've played. i get a lot of knee bend in, but when i am skating hard my arms are pumping and my back is almost parallel to the ground (a bit of an exaggeration). this is how i learned to skate, and i've never had issues with it.

I USED to skate bending over at my waist at approximately a 30-35 degree angle from my toes or there about. Granted this was when I was playing hockey in the street with a few friends on rollerblades, but after about 6 hours (the joys of youth) my lower back would become sore. I noticed that now after playing ice hockey and slowly starting to skate more upright that I have more agility and my lower back hardly ever hurts (unless some hack blindsides me intentionally twice in one shift during beer league). I think bending over puts more stress on your lower back as normally humans don't walk bent at the waist, it's more upright. Bending ones knees to skates mimicks the more natural position of sitting, which I believe is what puts less stress on the body. Granted if a skater keeps a very deep knee bend (90 degree) then there will start to be stress on the knees. This is why lots of youth baseball catchers have bad knees.

Of course, maybe at 21 I've destroyed my body or I'm completely off base, which is possible; being 21 I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about, even if I don't ;)

[cbj05 0]

Although you are probably right, it is skating technique, it could also be something as simple as stick length. Check that too. I am one of those "odd-balls" that uses a chest high stick, rather than the text book chin height. It improves my ability to stick handle... Anyway, I constantly have to stop myself from falling into bad skating habbits. Naturally, it is easier to bend your waist, not your legs to get closer to the ice and compensate for the short stick. Stick lie would have a similar impact.

I always look for the simple solutions first. You never know, you MIGHT just save yourself a lot of $$$ on skate modifications and skating clinics. And it will only take you 30 seconds to either embrace or dismiss the stick height/lie possibility.

A couple of years ago, I was told by my younger brother (of all people!) that I skated way too bent over, after playing shinny with him one weekend. I tfirst thought that he was just kidding me, but then I went over some tapes of myself playing (from tournament championship finals, league finals, etc.). After concluding that I did bend over too much while skating, I then asked my coach and the powerskating guy that worked with us at practises how I could fix my bent-over skating stance. The skating coach worked me through a couple drills that had me skating more upright, with more knee bend, rather than bending over at the waist. This method felt really akward to me. After practise, the coach came over to me and simply told me to use a longer stick. I took an uncut stick from my garage and cut it around 2 inches more than my old stick, and that seemed to do the trick. By having a longer stick, it prevented me from skating too bent over, or else my whole stick blade would not be on the ice. I knew that because passes kept on going under my blade :P .

I would reccomend that you try everything that has been mentioned in this post by these great MSH'ers (knee bend, profiling) because it can really help you out, but maybe you should try using a longer stick also. Give it a try, it may be the whole soultion, half of the solution, or maybe even close to none of your solution. Either way, it should not really hurt to grab a woodie and keep it a bit longer than normal.

Good luck with this, I can only imagine how hard it is to correct a bad habit, I guess I'm lucky I corrected mine early.

[echi24 1]

i dont think knee bend and the angle of your back are always directly related. i find that i get more extension of my arms when skating lower to the ground, and that helps with my skating. maybe my technique is inefficient, but it is what i'm most comfortable with. i guess i should time myself to see if i skate any faster bent over

[biff44 0]

The troubles with skating too bent over are many: you are not balanced so can not take a check well, can not turn well, can not shoot well, can not see the ice well, are screwing up your back, are showing signs of overdeveloped front and underdeveloped back muscles...need I continue?

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

Very good point here Theo...

The troubles with skating too bent over are many: you are not balanced so can not take a check well, can not turn well, can not shoot well, can not see the ice well, are screwing up your back, are showing signs of overdeveloped front and underdeveloped back muscles...need I continue?

What would you say about greats like Gretz and Jagr who had some forward bend at the waist (Of course they kept/keep their knees bent)..But they certainly lean forward more than a text book skater.

Last time I checked Jagr is one of the strongest skaters along the boards. And Hossa (Marcel) is even stronger along the boards and 'oh look'...He skates w/ a bend at the waist as well. I don't see Marian as much, but to be honest I think he has a similar style to his brother and Jagr as well.

Look at the first 30 secs of the vid...

Wow, look at my man Mario w/ the extreme bend at the waist at 22 secs+....And both Mario and Jagr use long sticks, so your "too many players use a stick too short for themselves" theory doesn't hold either

[hockeymom 2]

Jagr actually isn't too far off on the balls of the feet/knees/chin line. I think where he is off is likely his odd body proportion. He also has his head up!

http://www.infinitybeyond.com/nhl10jj.jpg

[biff44 0]

So you come up with one guy, Jagr, that is successful skating bent over. Good for you. I am sure even Jagr would do much better and last longer in the NHL if he worked on his balance and stood more upright! All that hunched over skating is grinding his spine to shreds.

[Ti-girl 0]

I was told by a few guys playing Jr that I skated too bent over. What we ended up doing was during power skating was to get me to skate with my knees over the end of my toes. The first little while it hurt until one of the guys said that you also have to adjust the way your hips are.

I find that if I push my hips farther back, I end up skating with better stride.

Kariya is a good example. Niedermayer too (scott that is.P

[Cavs019 708]

It ruins your center of gravity, it's physics. Jagr, as good as he is, IS NOT FAST by today's NHL standards. Theo you watch the Rangers just as much as I do and I cannot remember the last time Jagr scored a goal blowing down the wing. Its post up, roll off someone, and shoot, end of discussion. Being 235 pounds with immense leg strength and/or phenomenal puck skills can compensate for poor skating technique. See; Jagr, Robitaille, Glen Murray,etc. Sure it "worked" but Gretzky was a terrible, terrible skater.

Look at a guy like Gaborik, Havlat or Nieds and they are their torso is almost completely upright.

[hockeymom 2]

Oh Theo.... sigh

Look at virtually any sport and you can find phenomenal individuals who are the exception to the rule of proper form for that sport. How they get there is by having some compensating factor that is SO exceptional it gets them around their bad habit. Sometimes they have a physical problem that has them have to develop a "different" way to do the same task. But it is never as efficient as the proper form.

If those players weren't so gosh darn exceptional would they be that good inspite of their crappy form?

Ultimately it makes a fascinating debate but... Most of us aren't that exceptional in a different area to compensate and we would be better served at working on our technique and form.

[Cavs019 708]

I guess to further emphasize your point, look at Jim Furyk on the golf course. Any kid who stepped up to a pro/launch monitor with that kind of stroke would be laughed off the course. To each his own.

[Cavs019 708]

Agreed, I think its just that each sport has a exact mechanic that instructors attempt to duplicate and ingrain into their disciples at a young age, whether its a stride, jump shot, golf swing, etc. While I realize I am contradicting my earlier stance, everyone is not biomechanically the same, so an identical motion for everyone obviously is not realistic. However, with the skating stride, it is simply proven that in order to "maximize" power and stride length, an upright chest and a deep knee bend is crucial. Now obviously there are players who generate explosive speed with alternative motions, but for the average player, attempting to mimic that "perfect" stride is what will generate the most speed, balance, etc.

[hockeymom 2]

Oh Theo.... sigh

Look at virtually any sport and you can find phenomenal individuals who are the exception to the rule of proper form for that sport. How they get there is by having some compensating factor that is SO exceptional it gets them around their bad habit. Sometimes they have a physical problem that has them have to develop a "different" way to do the same task. But it is never as efficient as the proper form.

If those players weren't so gosh darn exceptional would they be that good inspite of their crappy form?

Ultimately it makes a fascinating debate but... Most of us aren't that exceptional in a different area to compensate and we would be better served at working on our technique and form.

Exactly....These players are exceptional and have gifts. And that is why you should know what I mean when I say if someone tried to change Lemiuex's, Gretzky's, Hossa's, Jagr's skating style during their career, it may hamper them more than help them.

And for all intents and purposes, it is not perfect form, but it is far from crappy either- I mean, give me a break. PLUS, we all have little traits in hockey that makes us, us. Part of the skating traits of these guys I list are part of what made them special and attributed to their game that they played

You make it seem like these players were great, despite their skating- which is laughable. Their skating and form were are part of their success as much as anything

Changing their style DURING their career? Nah, once you have made it to the show you continue to hone and develop - but I would be afraid to attempt to make a wholesale change. You don't kill the golden goose.

But what were they doing in PeeWee? Bantam?

For the rest of us mere mortals who are passionate about their sport... it is lifetime learning and development.

Neither of us can prove our points to any degree beyond idle speculation. But I find it as intellectually lazy to laugh at the notion that they were great despite their skating as I would at the notion they were great because of their skating.

The sad thing Theo, is that some people point to these exceptions in the NHL as an excuse to argue for their own limitations. "If Gretz managed it and he was a crappy skater, I do not have to work on developing my own skating". I'm usually far too polite to say what I think of that...

[hockeymom 2]

Agreed, I think its just that each sport has a exact mechanic that instructors attempt to duplicate and ingrain into their disciples at a young age, whether its a stride, jump shot, golf swing, etc. While I realize I am contradicting my earlier stance, everyone is not biomechanically the same, so an identical motion for everyone obviously is not realistic. However, with the skating stride, it is simply proven that in order to "maximize" power and stride length, an upright chest and a deep knee bend is crucial. Now obviously there are players who generate explosive speed with alternative motions, but for the average player, attempting to mimic that "perfect" stride is what will generate the most speed, balance, etc.

Fine points, Cavs

Hockeymom- You are not understanding what I am saying. In rare cases you learn things on your own (especially if you do not have the money that you may have- to get lessons, teams, coaching, etc) that prove to be as beneficial if not more beneficial to your game than the usual way to do things. Whether it be a slight quirp in your wrister, stride, form, etc. Sometimes the best way in learning things is to test and learn a way that fits yourself and works for yourself. It may not be the correct picture perfect way, but it may be the right way for that person. Hopefully I explained it better in there.

The sad thing Theo, is that some people point to these exceptions in the NHL as an excuse to argue for their own limitations. "If Gretz managed it and he was a crappy skater, I do not have to work on developing my own skating". I'm usually far too polite to say what I think of that...

I take great objection if "some people" implies me. Because I am always working on improving my game on and off the ice

I know you take a lot of time to help your daughter w/ her skating. By me saying that in rare cases not having a perfect form has worked for some players- I am not knocking what you are doing. Don't take it as an insult

LOL.. so now it is time for me to kiss and make up. Theo, I did NOT mean you with my "some people". I actually meant that some people hearing/reading might adopt it as their excuse. I've heard so many kids, parents and adult players point to NHL players as a reason/excuse for why they don't need to work on it. Obviously it is a hot button for me!

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

I'm with Theo on this one. These guys has develop a unique style through their hockey years. I think the objective of praticing is not to make you perfect but to make you better. You pratice to be better not perfect...BTW, I've always think that a special player will always play differently then a average player.

CAVS has a good point with Jim Furyk too.

Why changing something that is already working?

Agreed, I think its just that each sport has a exact mechanic that instructors attempt to duplicate and ingrain into their disciples at a young age, whether its a stride, jump shot, golf swing, etc. While I realize I am contradicting my earlier stance, everyone is not biomechanically the same, so an identical motion for everyone obviously is not realistic. However, with the skating stride, it is simply proven that in order to "maximize" power and stride length, an upright chest and a deep knee bend is crucial. Now obviously there are players who generate explosive speed with alternative motions, but for the average player, attempting to mimic that "perfect" stride is what will generate the most speed, balance, etc.

Fine points, Cavs

Hockeymom- You are not understanding what I am saying. In rare cases you learn things on your own (especially if you do not have the money that you may have- to get lessons, teams, coaching, etc) that prove to be as beneficial if not more beneficial to your game than the usual way to do things. Whether it be a slight quirp in your wrister, stride, form, etc. Sometimes the best way in learning things is to test and learn a way that fits yourself and works for yourself. It may not be the correct picture perfect way, but it may be the right way for that person. Hopefully I explained it better in there.

The sad thing Theo, is that some people point to these exceptions in the NHL as an excuse to argue for their own limitations. "If Gretz managed it and he was a crappy skater, I do not have to work on developing my own skating". I'm usually far too polite to say what I think of that...

I take great objection if "some people" implies me. Because I am always working on improving my game on and off the ice

I know you take a lot of time to help your daughter w/ her skating. By me saying that in rare cases not having a perfect form has worked for some players- I am not knocking what you are doing. Don't take it as an insult

[Hockeydog 8]

Ask a simple question!!!

[yvan12 0]

Ask a simple question!!!

Hockeydog:

You have asked a good question and you have received some sound advice in response. If I may add a couple of 'Old Farts' observations from many years of playing, and working in hockey retailing and pro shops for almost 30 years. If you want to improve as a skater and player you need to bend the knees. This enables you to use the explosive power of the quads, keep your back more upright to keep the head up, and will allow you full extension of the leg and ankle. Skating bent over from the waist means you have already partially straightened the leg which 'unloads' the quads and gives you reduced power. Being bent over also limits your vision of the ice because your head will drop, you will lose lateral movement and in order to keep the head up you will overwork the neck and back muscles. Gretzky was a great player, not because of his skating so much as his ability to see the ice and the players on it, and his great maneuverability to avoid checks and allow him to 'dipsy-doodle' with the puck. Also,weren't 'recurring back problems' cited as one of the reasons for his retirement? Jagr, on the other hand has a lot of upper body strength which enables him to skate bent over because his strong back and abs will support him. Mario also had recurring back problems as well. As far as the stick is concerned, a short stick will allow you to stick handle in tight quarters, but will cause the back to bend and drop the head. A chin-length stick will allow you to bend the knees, keep the head up, and get a little more juice on the shot due to increased leverage. Stick handling in tight may be more difficult, however. Finally, a custom profile or a heel lift in a properly fitted skate done properly by someone qualified and knowledgeable enough, will enhance your skating (and your game). The biggest factor (and you have shown it by asking the question in the first place) is your willingness to want to improve your prowess. Hockey is a great game at any age. I am 53 and am still trying to perfect my game. I hope these ramblings will give you a little food for thought, and, coupled with the great advice and suggestions from all of the other MSH'ers will make you the 'beer-leaguer' we all aspire to be. Best of luck.

[Ti-girl 0]

Heel lifts.

I just got them, love them.

I just saw my skating from my first game with them. Wow.