Dumped on your Butt: countermoves?

[hockeymom 2]

Thought some discussion of this move might be useful to other MSHers – as well as MissD.

MissD got dumped on her butt with a slick little move (that the opposing player was wearing PINK gloves only added to the horror of the experience).

The player came in under her arm, slid her stick under MissD’s stick, leaned into her and then pushed her at the hip while hauling her stick up – and whammo, MissD went down bigtime.

Hoping the MSH community can give some useful advise on using and defending against this move:

1. Is this move legal in girls’ non-check? If it is, MissD wants to add it to her repertoire. Is there a specific timing or sequencing issue that would make it legal or not?

2. What is the best way to defend against this? Is it just balance?

I’ve attached a vid that shows it in real time and then repeats in slow motion.

Thanks for your help!

DUMPED on your BUTT

[LkptTiger 1]

1) I'm not sure if something like that would be considered a legal play in girls' hockey. Personally, I don't think I would call it, but I'm a guy.

2) She's got to get lower. She's standing almost straight-up, which would make it pretty easy to knock her off-balance (as she was). She should also probably try to get her feet a little wider when contact is going to be made like that. Have her practice lowering her center-of-gravity, setting herself in a more solid stance and protecting the puck with her body. Extended one-on-one battles for a puck in tight quarters (with a teammate at practice) would really help her strength on the puck.

[DarkStar50 679]

Diane's feet are too close together. She comes up under her back left skate very quickly as she loses her balance. The other player never comes into contact using her right foot/leg closest to Diane's body. Once Diane's left skate was back on her heel, she was toast. I think the other girl made a good play. I would call what the other girl did incidental contact. I have fallen on my ass the same way Diane did when my feet got too close together. The big problem is your legs come out from under you so quickly that you can really hurt yourself on the landing. "It wasn't the fall that killed him. It was the landing."

[Ultimus 0]

That looks like its close to a hip toss in wrestling(not WWF)...But in slow-mo her right leg didn't stay behind your daughter when she checked... in the slow-mo it doesn't even look like that leg made the "sweeping" motion that would cause your daughter to fall back... I think she was just caught off balance...

It might get called as roughing in a not check league but, I don't think its that sweeping move, just a hit while lifting the stick.

However the opponent did get her stick up high, next time she could lean into the stick and then she might be able to draw a high-sticking, you know make it look good.... <_<

[DamnLocust 0]

MissD got dumped on her butt with a slick little move (that the opposing player was wearing PINK gloves only added to the horror of the experience).

Looks like she's got pink tape, too.

I'm going to agree with what others said about it looking like incidental contact.

One thing that may have thrown MissD off on the play is that she may have gotten blindsided a bit. She was focusing on skating/driving up ice ad out of her defensive zone. If she didn't see the girl to her left, or simply didn't realize how close she was to catching her, she may not have been prepared for the bump, which resulted on her being flat on her arse.

In my beer league, things like this happen all the time, except that most of the guys don't bother going for the puck, and try to bump the body a bit first. Since the puck is present, the ref almost never make a call on the play, even if the player doesn't try to make a play on the puck at all, and simply ties up his opponent for a teammate to come in and take the puck. (It gets very frustrating) If MissD at least feigns an attempt at playing the puck and gives a little nudge, most refs will let it slide and attribute it to incidental contact. No check doesnt necessaril mean that you can't play the body a bit. It really depends on how tight they want to call the game that night.

[DP_57 1]

the counter move is to lean into the other player and with your inside edge, you will keep possesion of the puck.

[LkptTiger 1]

...taking her left hand off her stick and using it to fight the other girl off would have helped, too.

[Storm 0]

She did nothing wrong. The other player wanted to lift her stick and take the puck but ended up body-checking her.

I would have called it.

Edit. Took a look at it again this morning and I don't think Pink Gloves tried to lift her stick to take the puck but I still think it was a Bodycheck though not necessarily intentional. I think Pink Gloves was not in total control there ... still, a penalty in my book.

[Medic 0]

It looked like a pretty innocent bump that dropped her like a sack of potatos, rather than some "move" that requires a counter measure. The girls that got dumped should really work on dealing with some contact. Have someone skate around with her and shove her a bit or play one on one in the corner for a while with a team mate.

If something like that can spill her like that, then stability on skates is a bigger concern than learning how to do it back to someone.

[The Stranger 0]

Like others have said she needs to get lower and wider with her legs to counter contact like that (legal imo). Also she should get her left arm and leg in front of the attacking player when possible, that way she should be able to block the poke check and keep possesion of the puck. Also if she does that and is still knocked down it would be more likely she draws a penalty since the attacking player will have to go through her body to get to the puck. I practically make a living drawing penalties like that.

[Viking 1]

It seems to me she wasn't 'dumped on her butt' because of what the other girl did - it looks more like she was just off balance, and maybe not terribly strong on the puck in any case (I have no idea, but in these two seconds of footage she wasn't). It looked like she didn't see the other girl coming - she only had one hand on the stick, was off balance, and didn't protect the puck with her body, which I imagine she would have done if she'd seen the other girl coming. That other girl really didn't need to make any contact with her to strip the puck, she got close enough that she could have just knocked it off her stick if she wanted.

Since it's a non-checking league, all she really has to do is keep her stick away from the defender, and protect the puck with her body - if she's doing that, they have to either hit her or put a stick on her to get the puck away, and either way they'll take a penalty (in theory). The defender's goal is to separate the puck carrier from the puck, and if she's not allowed to play the body, all she can play is the puck - if she keeps her body between the defender and the puck, she'll probably hold on to it.

I don't think the defender's move is technically legal in non-check hockey, but if I'd be pretty mad if they called a penalty on me for doing that - it didn't take much to knock her down, as the defender made contact with her with one foot on the ice, and not skating very fast, and it still resulted in a butt-dumping. It's sort of borderline, but I'd say it was more incidental contact than a bodycheck (don't listen to me, though - I don't ref, and when I played in a no-checking league, I got bodychecking penalties every game).

[Jake 0]

I think she needs a daily 2 hour regiment of alternating leg and core muscle workouts.

I like the above suggestion of practicing body position with a teammate.

[Chadd 916]

2) She's got to get lower. She's standing almost straight-up, which would make it pretty easy to knock her off-balance (as she was). She should also probably try to get her feet a little wider when contact is going to be made like that. Have her practice lowering her center-of-gravity, setting herself in a more solid stance and protecting the puck with her body. Extended one-on-one battles for a puck in tight quarters (with a teammate at practice) would really help her strength on the puck.

She's bending at the waist and not at the knees and that's raising her center of gravity too high. One defense against that, as mentioned, is to shield the puck with her body and force the other girl to go through her to get to the puck. Turning back to the corner is another way to lose the attacker and would probably work best given the angle the other girl took.

There really isn't much she could do in that situation as the attacker had a great angle and got between her and the puck. She was also in good control of her body and probably could have matched any turn Miss D made. Making a quick play up the boards or an outlet pass would have been the best option in this case.

[willy0314 0]

IMO, the biggest thing is she is standing too upright. If she had her knees bent and kept herself low, she would have greater balance, and be able to sheild the puck better. Being upright like in the video, you also loose a good deal of stride length, which slows you down alot.

My advice would be for her to bend her knees. DEEP. If it dosen't feel like you are too low, then you are most likely standing too upright. Getting lower will lengthen her stride and improve her balance.

[hockeyherb 1]

It looked like a lot of contact to me, especially in slow mo. Pink Glove puts a lot of body on her so not much MissD could do.

Like others said though, with Pinky and another bearing down on her quick she should have headmanned it a little quicker or put her body more between the puck and the attacker with some lean to get leverage. Even without contact Pinky could have pokechecked her pretty easily as she had a good angle.

[moose77 0]

At full speed it looked like incidental contact to me, I doubt I'd have called anything. In slow motion though, it sure looked like MissD was body checked. The opposing player came in from MissD's left side and knocked her down without attempting to play the puck. Had the checking player at least been attempting to gain posession of the puck with her stick and there was contact, I'd have said "that's just a hockey play" and let it go.

[Methane 0]

It looked like a pretty innocent bump that dropped her like a sack of potatos, rather than some "move" that requires a counter measure. The girls that got dumped should really work on dealing with some contact. Have someone skate around with her and shove her a bit or play one on one in the corner for a while with a team mate.

If something like that can spill her like that, then stability on skates is a bigger concern than learning how to do it back to someone.

Do they work on things like this at practice? I watched this being done last night, one skater following another, the trail skater would come up and push the leads hip to throw them off balance. They went all over the ice like this, switching sides, turning and such. You could actually see the improvement of some of the guys by the end of the drill.

[hockeymom 2]

It looked like a pretty innocent bump that dropped her like a sack of potatos, rather than some "move" that requires a counter measure. The girls that got dumped should really work on dealing with some contact. Have someone skate around with her and shove her a bit or play one on one in the corner for a while with a team mate.

If something like that can spill her like that, then stability on skates is a bigger concern than learning how to do it back to someone.

Do they work on things like this at practice? I watched this being done last night, one skater following another, the trail skater would come up and push the leads hip to throw them off balance. They went all over the ice like this, switching sides, turning and such. You could actually see the improvement of some of the guys by the end of the drill.

No, they don't work on this in practice - at least, not at this level of hockey. However, I did send MissD out to "checking school" two summers ago, admittedly more from a safety point of view: learning how to take and receive a hit would make it safer during incidental contact in a non-checking league. So, she has learned the "power position"... infact, when she saw this vid she laughed and said she was obviously in the "powerless position".

Thanks for all of your comments... she's added it to her list of what she wants to work on over March break.

[Jason Harris 31]

For a non-check league, I'm a bit surprised most of you consider this incidental contact.

To me, the girl didn't turn up ice and "shadow" MissD more. If she had, I'd agree the contact was incidental, but the girl's momentum and shoulder clearly tried to be at the same point and time as MissD. Einstein said that's not possible, and I'm surprised the refs didn't agree.

[Chadd 916]

For a non-check league, I'm a bit surprised most of you consider this incidental contact.

To me, the girl didn't turn up ice and "shadow" MissD more. If she had, I'd agree the contact was incidental, but the girl's momentum and shoulder clearly tried to be at the same point and time as MissD. Einstein said that's not possible, and I'm surprised the refs didn't agree.

A properly officiated non-check game has a lot of contact. I saw it as a physical battle for the puck and a good, hard hockey play.

[hockeymom 2]

For a non-check league, I'm a bit surprised most of you consider this incidental contact.

To me, the girl didn't turn up ice and "shadow" MissD more. If she had, I'd agree the contact was incidental, but the girl's momentum and shoulder clearly tried to be at the same point and time as MissD. Einstein said that's not possible, and I'm surprised the refs didn't agree.

A properly officiated non-check game has a lot of contact. I saw it as a physical battle for the puck and a good, hard hockey play.

With the inconsistent refing this year, it is hard to tell what is going to be considered a battle or not. If I'm not mistaken, girls' non-check follows the same rules as any other non-check hockey. In this particular game, essentially nothing - even blatant tripping, was called. That's not a complaint, it's life this year. MissD, the brute, continues to try to figure out (as I am sure other non-check players might wonder) where the line is between allowable contact where you are leaning on a player to battle for the puck - and checking. If you understand what is allowed, then you can "knowingly" make adjustments depending on how the refs are calling it that day.

If you remember this clip, this was considered a penalty on a different day...

Penlty clip

Arguably, this one involves more of a play for the puck than the "Dumped" clip. Again, this isn't to debate the calls made, but rather to get an understanding of where the line is.

[Methane 0]

With the inconsistent refing this year, it is hard to tell what is going to be considered a battle or not. If I'm not mistaken, girls' non-check follows the same rules as any other non-check hockey. In this particular game, essentially nothing - even blatant tripping, was called. That's not a complaint, it's life this year. MissD, the brute, continues to try to figure out (as I am sure other non-check players might wonder) where the line is between allowable contact where you are leaning on a player to battle for the puck - and checking. If you understand what is allowed, then you can "knowingly" make adjustments depending on how the refs are calling it that day.

If you remember this clip, this was considered a penalty on a different day...

Penlty clip

Arguably, this one involves more of a play for the puck than the "Dumped" clip. Again, this isn't to debate the calls made, but rather to get an understanding of where the line is.

That's pretty much what I was mentioning above, pressure on the top of the hip. Not that it's related to the original discussion, but a stability issue non the less.

[Ti-girl 0]

For a non-check league, I'm a bit surprised most of you consider this incidental contact.

To me, the girl didn't turn up ice and "shadow" MissD more. If she had, I'd agree the contact was incidental, but the girl's momentum and shoulder clearly tried to be at the same point and time as MissD. Einstein said that's not possible, and I'm surprised the refs didn't agree.

A properly officiated non-check game has a lot of contact. I saw it as a physical battle for the puck and a good, hard hockey play.

With the inconsistent refing this year, it is hard to tell what is going to be considered a battle or not. If I'm not mistaken, girls' non-check follows the same rules as any other non-check hockey. In this particular game, essentially nothing - even blatant tripping, was called. That's not a complaint, it's life this year. MissD, the brute, continues to try to figure out (as I am sure other non-check players might wonder) where the line is between allowable contact where you are leaning on a player to battle for the puck - and checking. If you understand what is allowed, then you can "knowingly" make adjustments depending on how the refs are calling it that day.

If you remember this clip, this was considered a penalty on a different day...

Penlty clip

Arguably, this one involves more of a play for the puck than the "Dumped" clip. Again, this isn't to debate the calls made, but rather to get an understanding of where the line is.

As you said, it's life this year.

Three games ago I got a bodychecking call when I turned to guard the puck against the boards. Saturday I was playing and I muscled a girl off the puck and then instead of just turning and trying to clear it around the boards I went back her way and rubbed her out...hard. And didn't get a call.

It depends on what ref you're getting...and what he feels like calling.

But getting back to your original question, I agree that her stability is the issue.

I play women's hockey and help coach some girls hockey and we try to work with some of our girls on keeping their base wide and how to protect the puck when it's "man on man".

[LkptTiger 1]

If you remember this clip, this was considered a penalty on a different day...

Penlty clip

Arguably, this one involves more of a play for the puck than the "Dumped" clip. Again, this isn't to debate the calls made, but rather to get an understanding of where the line is.

She caught the carrier from behind then stopped moving her feet...that's why that one was called. If she keeps driving her legs, I bet that doesn't get called.

[nicksmission14 0]

I'd have to say if it was non-check hockey I probably would have called that one.

The guys who said feet to close and too upright are right on the money.