Graf Canada SUCKS - run like a Mickey Mouse Operation

[Pats 0]

Now I know this seems like abashing Graf thread but I have agood story about their customer service. A player on my team bought G5 Ultra's and after wearing them for a week the side of the boot had bad wrinkles in it anyway he sends them back and a week later new pair no problem. Other point of interest is that alot of you are forgetting that Graf has a huge figure skating business which from what I've been told is way bigger than their hockey side.

[jokerit1967 0]

Now I know this seems like abashing Graf thread but I have agood story about their customer service.

even a stopped/broken analog clock can be right twice a day.

[DarkStar50 679]

Other point of interest is that alot of you are forgetting that Graf has a huge figure skating business which from what I've been told is way bigger than their hockey side.

Yes, their figure boot business is very big and successful. Elite figure skaters are extremely tough on their boots and fit. They will spend 5 to 6 hours a day, 5 days a week on the ice. Graf figure boots are very well made. Running a skate boot business only is not as easy as everyone thinks it might be. Putting aside the customer service bitching for a moment, it is next to impossible to find people willing to learn and keep the job of building hockey or figure boots. It is extremely labor intensive to build a skating boot from start to finish. If you live in Calgary, finding people willing to do this job is not easy. I have talked with the Graf people at OneGoal shows and maintaining a work force is difficult in the production of skate boots. These are not excuses. They are facts.

OK, carry on with the complaining.

[Zamboni 6]

Other point of interest is that alot of you are forgetting that Graf has a huge figure skating business which from what I've been told is way bigger than their hockey side.

Yes, their figure boot business is very big and successful. Elite figure skaters are extremely tough on their boots and fit. They will spend 5 to 6 hours a day, 5 days a week on the ice. Graf figure boots are very well made. Running a skate boot business only is not as easy as everyone thinks it might be. Putting aside the customer service bitching for a moment, it is next to impossible to find people willing to learn and keep the job of building hockey or figure boots. It is extremely labor intensive to build a skating boot from start to finish. If you live in Calgary, finding people willing to do this job is not easy. I have talked with the Graf people at OneGoal shows and maintaining a work force is difficult in the production of skate boots. These are not excuses. They are facts.

OK, carry on with the complaining.

Our complaints are with customer service-actually the lack of it. Graf having problems retaining production workers shouldn't impact the CS dept....unless the skate builders are also picking up the phones/answering emails?

Ignore enough complaints and threads like this sprout up, really bad business practise. If your selling Grafs point this out to your sales rep, Graf needs to answer emails and take care of returned defective skates as promptly as they handle a potential sale. If their too busy to inspect-repair-replace defective product then entrust dealers to do that. None of the kids I coach will be in Grafs this season because they cannot wait weeks-months if there is a problem.

You seem to feel our complaints are unreasonable, they are actual Graf owners experiences when they had skate problems.

[DarkStar50 679]

You mis-interpret my comments. I am on both sides on the discussion. I sell the product and I know people who use the product. Graf is a very small company in the big picture of hockey vendors when discussing their personnel size. Is our shop's customer service with Graf 100% perfect? No and neither is any other vendors. Does Graf have a higher percentage of problems? Yes, by reading this thread. Should Graf be doing more CS work to improve relationships with both dealers and consumers? Yes. Is Graf as big as the other vendors? Not even close but that does not excuse their CS problems. Are they probably trying to do a better job? I have talked with their people in Calgary and my Graf rep and I know these people are trying to do a better job. Are there two sides to every story? Yes, there usually are. I was just pointing out some other issues that may have been passed over.

I have so few customers asking for Graf hockey skates that this season I will not be stocking any Graf hockey skates. This is a business decision based on demand.

[epstud74 24]

You mis-interpret my comments. I am on both sides on the discussion. I sell the product and I know people who use the product. Graf is a very small company in the big picture of hockey vendors when discussing their personnel size. Is our shop's customer service with Graf 100% perfect? No and neither is any other vendors. Does Graf have a higher percentage of problems? Yes, by reading this thread. Should Graf be doing more CS work to improve relationships with both dealers and consumers? Yes. Is Graf as big as the other vendors? Not even close but that does not excuse their CS problems. Are they probably trying to do a better job? I have talked with their people in Calgary and my Graf rep and I know these people are trying to do a better job. Are there two sides to every story? Yes, there usually are. I was just pointing out some other issues that may have been passed over.

I have so few customers asking for Graf hockey skates that this season I will not be stocking any Graf hockey skates. This is a business decision based on demand.

And why is there less demand for Graf hockey skates?

[Hockeydog 8]

They don't market very well. NikeBauer, CCM/RBK, Easton, and Mission all spend money on marketing. I don't ever recall seeing an ad for Graf hockey skates outside of a online hockey shop.

[DarkStar50 679]

I agree with the lack of marketing, NHL exposure or even being worn in the NHL and lack of new technology combined with sizzle(marketing). They are introducing some new technologies to their product but they are basically playing catch-up with NBH. They are far behind. I thnk we can all agree on that. Graf is a small company which(I am only guessing) must not have the money to spend on advertising/marketing. When they have to compete with marketing giants like NBH and RBK/CCM, they are going to be swamped. Again, this does not excuse their CS problems. It only compounds them when trying to compete in the marketplace.

[djinferno 2]

Well I know in the past that QMJHL players that wanted Grafs where told by the teams that they should concidar changing skates because they where not easy to get pairs wen/if skates would brakedown due to the rigours of the regular season...

[Project824 0]

Are there two sides to every story? Yes, there usually are. I was just pointing out some other issues that may have been passed over.

Thank you DS50. I know I'm probably going to take some flak for this, but anyone who's worked in Customer Service/Relations before knows that half (and that's a generously low estimate) of the time CS/QC calls are someone looking for a handout. Ever worked in a shop before and had a guy come in because he broke his stick "on the first shot"? Meanwhile they play at the rink your shop is located in, and 10 minutes earlier another guy on his team was telling you the story how "Gary flipped out and axhandled his new stick over the crossbar because they scored/he fell/his ankles bent too much/etc."

I've skated in Grafs for the better part of 20 years, pre and post Graf Canada. My rep has always been great to me, but I have replaced broken holders before without going to Graf because that's the way the sport goes and I'm not exactly easy on skates. Their custom/pro department has always been great. I've had a brand new pair of custom One90s since April of 2006 and have worn them 4 times just because I can't get past the G5's I'm wearing. I've worn custom Bauer (One90, 7000s and 1993 3000s), CCMs and Mega. All companies have been good products, and ALL companies have had stitches pop loose, materials tear, holders crack, steel break and things wear out - sometimes the first week, sometimes after 2 years. That's just the way things go. Unless you're stepping on the ice and the sole just rips off we should rethink the average consumer's definition of the word "defect". It's not something that happens to the skate from you using it.

That said, they should return emails and phone calls - maybe not within the 6 hour time period the average MSH user expects, but within a week. Things move slow in Alberta.

[Pats 0]

Well I know in the past that QMJHL players that wanted Grafs where told by the teams that they should concidar changing skates because they where not easy to get pairs wen/if skates would brakedown due to the rigours of the regular season...

I think most Major Junior teams discourage Graf wear not really as much for that reason as the fact that Graf's will by far cost more than any other brand due to sponsorships, etc.

[Project824 0]

Well I know in the past that QMJHL players that wanted Grafs where told by the teams that they should concidar changing skates because they where not easy to get pairs wen/if skates would brakedown due to the rigours of the regular season...

I think most Major Junior teams discourage Graf wear not really as much for that reason as the fact that Graf's will by far cost more than any other brand due to sponsorships, etc.

Not sure where you're getting your info, but every special team price list I've ever seen has Graf 7-- series costing significantly less (about $100 per pair) than Vapor XXX, XXXX, One90, RBK 9k, Easton, etc. The G series on average came in about $30-50 less than that, and Ultra G5 are a few bucks less but on par with XXXX, and still quite a few less than 9ks and One90s.

[jokerit1967 0]

I know I'm probably going to take some flak for this, but anyone who's worked in Customer Service/Relations before knows that half (and that's a generously low estimate) of the time CS/QC calls are someone looking for a handout. Ever worked in a shop before and had a guy come in because he broke his stick "on the first shot"? Meanwhile they play at the rink your shop is located in, and 10 minutes earlier another guy on his team was telling you the story how "Gary flipped out and axhandled his new stick over the crossbar because they scored/he fell/his ankles bent too much/etc."

yes - for many years I was involved with retail/customer service dealing with premium manufacturers and not-so premium ones. The very dominant premiums - I dealt with - that have had excellent growth... knew they were getting dicked over by someone (unfortunately) like you describe above... but they just took care of it/satisfied the customer with next day air replacements (with UPS call tag and secured by credit card to ensure return of the claimed defect) with a hat and some other B.S. souvenirs thrown in for free... they've tapered back slightly. I could tell their customer service reps yeah this guy is lying - he messed up,etc. and they would say "is he a good customer? do you think he is valuable?" even the few times i quietly said no -- they still replaced the clown's stuff. They would also do this for the customer directly, or if we were willing the replacement would coe out of stock and they would send our replacement (or credit if we so chose) by UPS ground (5-7 business days). This was without fail - hundreds of product replacements over a span of say 7 years. (Yes, many of these customers did screw up as opposed to the product, but X company wanted to make the customers (and consequently their retailers happy).

The original big boys lost ground because they were stricter.. and their business stagnated. OK, so not everyone is as pro-customer as the company i am speaking of ... the attitude of the company i am praising was thought to mainly come from it's CEO. He didn't just want good products - he wanted people to know that if you buy his stuff - no matter if it was a hat, a glove, or something expensive - they would replace it if you had a problem without any static from their customer service people.

Yes, that level of customer service is rare, but Graf certainly could emulate whatever level is financially realistic for them. - the purpose of my attack was not whether or not you like Graf designs, technology, etc. I basically think that the people who run Graf Canada could learn a great deal from stories like that... Many people believe that companies get their attitude from the top... I believe it certainly has a lot of influence, etc.

[MLSman 22]

It is discouraging to hear so many stories of customer support issues. I certainly hope that Graf is able to rectify these situations. There is nothing more damaging to an organization than disgruntled customers. Graf for many years has been an elite product with a very loyal user community. It is this lack of service that can cripple that loyalty.

[epstud74 24]

I know I'm probably going to take some flak for this, but anyone who's worked in Customer Service/Relations before knows that half (and that's a generously low estimate) of the time CS/QC calls are someone looking for a handout. Ever worked in a shop before and had a guy come in because he broke his stick "on the first shot"? Meanwhile they play at the rink your shop is located in, and 10 minutes earlier another guy on his team was telling you the story how "Gary flipped out and axhandled his new stick over the crossbar because they scored/he fell/his ankles bent too much/etc."

yes - for many years I was involved with retail/customer service dealing with premium manufacturers and not-so premium ones. The very dominant premiums - I dealt with - that have had excellent growth... knew they were getting dicked over by someone (unfortunately) like you describe above... but they just took care of it/satisfied the customer with next day air replacements (with UPS call tag and secured by credit card to ensure return of the claimed defect) with a hat and some other B.S. souvenirs thrown in for free... they've tapered back slightly. I could tell their customer service reps yeah this guy is lying - he messed up,etc. and they would say "is he a good customer? do you think he is valuable?" even the few times i quietly said no -- they still replaced the clown's stuff. They would also do this for the customer directly, or if we were willing the replacement would coe out of stock and they would send our replacement (or credit if we so chose) by UPS ground (5-7 business days). This was without fail - hundreds of product replacements over a span of say 7 years. (Yes, many of these customers did screw up as opposed to the product, but X company wanted to make the customers (and consequently their retailers happy).

The original big boys lost ground because they were stricter.. and their business stagnated. OK, so not everyone is as pro-customer as the company i am speaking of ... the attitude of the company i am praising was thought to mainly come from it's CEO. He didn't just want good products - he wanted people to know that if you buy his stuff - no matter if it was a hat, a glove, or something expensive - they would replace it if you had a problem without any static from their customer service people.

Yes, that level of customer service is rare, but Graf certainly could emulate whatever level is financially realistic for them. - the purpose of my attack was not whether or not you like Graf designs, technology, etc. I basically think that the people who run Graf Canada could learn a great deal from stories like that... Many people believe that companies get their attitude from the top... I believe it certainly has a lot of influence, etc.

I know Graf is not big on marketing, BUT this is NORTH AMERICA, and things work differently here. I dont think it is in the best interest of Graf Canada to completely copy the marketing strategy of Graf Switzerland. Graf has the money to market their product more effectively, perhaps the marketing department along with the customer service department needs a complete overhaul. Companies or people who do not change the way they think or paradigms over time, in order to adapt to a changing world, tend to be a lot less successful than the ones that do.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

I'm going to laugh if the latest rumor going around about them being bought happens.

[jmiro 55]

ive emailed mission, sherwood, and ccm on general questions about their products. As I have no LHS around. They have all responsed politely and often the next day. I recall fury being the same way. I emailed graf a couple times on an issue i had with their pants. Never heard anything. I never bought their products again. I will remain loyal to companies that take a minute to feild a question from the people using their products. Even if I dont like the answer at least they took the time. Mission gets all the props because they have answered any question I have and someone takes the time to feild questions on this board.

[epstud74 24]

I'm going to laugh if the latest rumor going around about them being bought happens.

What rumor is this? I'd like to see Riedell back in the hockey skate business..

[DarkStar50 679]

Please note that we are referencing Mr Hill's letter from September 2004! That was two and a half years ago. Does anyone here know how large a part Hill still plays in the company? I don't and I order from Graf. We agree Graf needs to improve. Lets just leave a problem from over 30 months ago behind. It has been noted.

As I have thought about my shop problems with Graf CS, I remembered an instance last season where it took me a month to get runners from Graf for Cobra holders. My initial order was "lost" or whatever. I had to follow-up 2 more times to get the runners. I know first hand from the dealers side what it like to work with Graf when a customer says where is the steel you said would be in a week three weeks ago.

[Hockeydog 8]

DS50 has a very valid point. If we want to warn others about Graf, maybe current issues should be the focus.

[mew1838 0]

Since we are talking about issues 30 months ago, can I bring up the lousy XX and stupid LS steel? :P

[DarkStar50 679]

No, but jimmy can!

[Zamboni 6]

Are there two sides to every story? Yes, there usually are. I was just pointing out some other issues that may have been passed over.

Thank you DS50. I know I'm probably going to take some flak for this, but anyone who's worked in Customer Service/Relations before knows that half (and that's a generously low estimate) of the time CS/QC calls are someone looking for a handout. Ever worked in a shop before and had a guy come in because he broke his stick "on the first shot"? Meanwhile they play at the rink your shop is located in, and 10 minutes earlier another guy on his team was telling you the story how "Gary flipped out and axhandled his new stick over the crossbar because they scored/he fell/his ankles bent too much/etc."

I've skated in Grafs for the better part of 20 years, pre and post Graf Canada. My rep has always been great to me, but I have replaced broken holders before without going to Graf because that's the way the sport goes and I'm not exactly easy on skates. Their custom/pro department has always been great. I've had a brand new pair of custom One90s since April of 2006 and have worn them 4 times just because I can't get past the G5's I'm wearing. I've worn custom Bauer (One90, 7000s and 1993 3000s), CCMs and Mega. All companies have been good products, and ALL companies have had stitches pop loose, materials tear, holders crack, steel break and things wear out - sometimes the first week, sometimes after 2 years. That's just the way things go. Unless you're stepping on the ice and the sole just rips off we should rethink the average consumer's definition of the word "defect". It's not something that happens to the skate from you using it.

That said, they should return emails and phone calls - maybe not within the 6 hour time period the average MSH user expects, but within a week. Things move slow in Alberta.

I have replaced the holder on my 705 twice, and its cracked again. This is not normal wear and tear, thats 3 holders cracked within a year. What is your definition of a defect....imo the sole plate the holder attaches to not being flat is a defect. The skate must actually be capable of being skated on or it is defective.

It's too bad Graf doesn't want to see the skates and offer up their opinion of my 'defect' claim. I'm ordering an inline conversion, when I have the holders off I'll flatten with epoxy-I'll take pics with a straight rule....what are acceptable tolerances?

[Yakus 0]

I don't think I'll be purchasing any Graf Canada products anymore. I bought a pair of graf gloves and now the threading is coming apart after a month of play. I've gone through multiple Easton and Bauer gloves and haven't a problem with that. I'm just going to go to my LHS and get it re-stitched. Needless to say, I'm disappointed with the quality of Graf products. It doesn't help when they already have a bad reputation on this board.