Michael Moore's Sicko...

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

I just finished watching this movie. Its very good, brings up some very good points and really points out some terrible flaws in the American health care system.

It comes out on DVD on the 29th, I would definitally reccomend that you rent it. shhhhhhhhh-If you wanna see it now, PM me-shhhhhhh

[LkptTiger 1]

Eff that guy.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Eff that guy.

Have you seen the movie, or is this based on past films?

From what I read/hear, this is more an attack on the broke down insurance industry as it is a political attack.

[nni 0]

i like his films, but you have to understand he is biased, so it isnt a pure documentary.

[toroytorero 0]

Eff that guy.

amen

though I still love the move when he went around congress asking if they were sending their relatives to Iraq.

[LkptTiger 1]

i like his films, but you have to understand he is biased, so it isnt a pure documentary.

"Propaganda" is the word you're looking for.

[nni 0]

no, i wouldnt go that far, propaganda is rarely based in truth, but moore's films have a lot truth to them, but sometimes its selective truth.

[Juice_Slowjamz 0]

no, i wouldnt go that far, propaganda is rarely based in truth, but moore's films have a lot truth to them, but sometimes its selective truth.

Word.

[precursor 0]

Downloading now..

I think the best way to take Moore is with a grain of salt.

[GSHL99 0]

no, i wouldnt go that far, propaganda is rarely based in truth, but moore's films have a lot truth to them, but sometimes its selective truth.

Not at all, good propaganda is always based on fact.

Are there lot's problems with the American health care system? Sure there are, but there are also tons of problems with socialized medicine. If there weren't thousands of Canadians and Europeans wouldn't be coming to the US to see specialists they simply don't have access to in their native country.

The majority of costs to family practice doctors is collecting from insurance and HMO's. That's why during the fall you see cash specials for things like sports physical exams. It's not really a special, that's actually what the service would cost if the doctor didn't have to collect from an insurance company or HMO. Or for example why going to see an optometrist is so affordable, they rarely deal with having to collect from insurance companies. If people just paid cash for normal day to day medical needs it would be signficanly cheaper. It would also be easier and cheaper for the state and private charity to help the needy gain access to medical coverage. Then people could carry an insurance policy to cover serious illness, which would also be affordable as most people would either never need them or pay into them for years before using the coverage.

[mack 44]

They should have said "propaganda based on truth isn't effective."

[Chadd 916]

no, i wouldnt go that far, propaganda is rarely based in truth, but moore's films have a lot truth to them, but sometimes its selective truth.

How is that different from any other spin or sales pitch?

The only issue with Moore that I have is that people call his stuff documentaries.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

no, i wouldnt go that far, propaganda is rarely based in truth, but moore's films have a lot truth to them, but sometimes its selective truth.

Not at all, good propaganda is always based on fact.

Are there lot's problems with the American health care system? Sure there are, but there are also tons of problems with socialized medicine. If there weren't thousands of Canadians and Europeans wouldn't be coming to the US to see specialists they simply don't have access to in their native country.

The majority of costs to family practice doctors is collecting from insurance and HMO's. That's why during the fall you see cash specials for things like sports physical exams. It's not really a special, that's actually what the service would cost if the doctor didn't have to collect from an insurance company or HMO. Or for example why going to see an optometrist is so affordable, they rarely deal with having to collect from insurance companies. If people just paid cash for normal day to day medical needs it would be signficanly cheaper. It would also be easier and cheaper for the state and private charity to help the needy gain access to medical coverage. Then people could carry an insurance policy to cover serious illness, which would also be affordable as most people would either never need them or pay into them for years before using the coverage.

I'm sorry, do you mind me asking where you are getting your information from, because I feel you are completely wrong

1. Socialized medicine, there are arguements for and against it, but it comes down to administration. That is where the most corners are cut, and because of the shortcuts taken, it affects the quality of service right down the chain.

2. Its not a burden financially for a PCP to collect from the insurance company, particularly not from an HMO. They are paid a certain amount per month/quarter/annum based on the number of patients in the HMO. It doesn't matter if the doctor only sees 150 out of 2500 members in the HMO, he gets the same per patient allowance.

This is why it's harder to get appointments when you are in an HMO compared to a PPO. A PPO the doctor is reimbursed based on a contracted rate for each encounter, not a flat rate per month based on group size.

Also, by becoming a provider in a PPO, they accept lesser rates, but not a whole lot different, based on my personal experience. But they recoup that offset in volume, as by being part of the PPO, patients are funneled to them.

Your optometrist bit, I have no clue what you are getting at, but a signifigant number of health insurances also offer vision benefits, so optometrists have to deal with insurance companies as much as any other specialist. The reason they are more affordable is because the testing is standardized for pretty much everyone, whereas you can go to a dermatologist with about 100 different skin conditions.

Optometrists use universal equipment, have standardized tests for visual field exams, and can generally process more patients than a regular doctor can in a day.

That is not to say they are not skilled, but you are implying that optometrists are cheaper because they don't use insurance companies, and thats just flat out wrong

And as for this

If people just paid cash for normal day to day medical needs it would be signficanly cheaper. It would also be easier and cheaper for the state and private charity to help the needy gain access to medical coverage. Then people could carry an insurance policy to cover serious illness, which would also be affordable as most people would either never need them or pay into them for years before using the coverage.

How does someone who does not have a job pay for normal day to day expenses.

You said socialized medicine does not work in your opening paragraph, now you have a hybrid socialized medicine suggested here with the state and charitable organizations working in unison.

And they serious illness coverage is already out there, its called catastrophic loss insurance.

Health insurance is so expensive because of a myriad of reasons, of which there are too many to go through now, but they involve insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and large medical groups.

Anyway, this answer is long enough, so I will cut it off now

[LkptTiger 1]

no, i wouldnt go that far, propaganda is rarely based in truth, but moore's films have a lot truth to them, but sometimes its selective truth.

Propaganda is only effective if people believe it to be true. Typically, people are only going to believe something is true if there is factual evidence supporting at least a small portion of the subject matter being presented to them. Therefore, propaganda is really only going to be effective is there is - under the house-of-cards shell - an accepted truth at it's base.

*Edit*: Typos bother me.

[Monty22 834]

Do we really want the federal government to be in charge of health care? Look at how great Social Security is working out....

[Chadd 916]

Do we really want the federal government to be in charge of health care? Look at how great Social Security is working out....

And they've done such a great job with the VA hospitals.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Do we really want the federal government to be in charge of health care? Look at how great Social Security is working out....

By that token, do you want them in charge of justice, defense, immigration, licensing etc, etc.

Why not just privatize everything, and see how that works out

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Do we really want the federal government to be in charge of health care? Look at how great Social Security is working out....

The current system is a better alternative? The government sold this country out to HMOs years ago. Moron convservatives that have no clue how the health care system actually effects people will say anything to get away from Universal Health care.

Wait until someone in your imediate family gets sick. My dad had stomach cancer and the surgery bills alone were $550,000. Add in the anti nausea pills he had to take during chemo and radiation, that ran $400 a week and you're talking some serious money. All of this, which was completely unsuccessful, did nothing but destroy any savings my parents had. This was on a 80/20 co-pay plan. I can only imagine how someone could get by without insurance at all.

Hell, I had a serious case of poison ivy last summer and I needed a special script + a shot to stop the rash. Being 20, having two jobs but no health insurance I still owe $1250 and change to the hopsital for 5 minutes of work. Will they ever see their money? Not likely.

The health care system in this country is unfucking believeable.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

Datsyukiandeek, while I agree that the healthcare system is a joke, it's not solely the fault of the conservatives (and I am fairly liberal in my world views, so I am not defending them because thats my party, my party is Sinn Fein).

The problem is, conservatives balk at universal healthcare because they focus on the flaws of universal health in other countries, and refuse to acknowledge the good it actually does for millions of people.

Take your fathers case for example, and compare it to mine. My father was a carpenter, mother a housewife. He was diagnosed with lung cancer. Had to go through both chemo and radiation, and we had to get a hospital bed put in at home, and a wheelchair, and all the drugs that go along with just controlling the pain.

The difference in your case and mine, I am from Ireland, we have government mandated healthcare (being a carpenter in a small town in Ulster doesn't pay so great). He was covered for all the services, unfortunately it was quite advanced, so he died, but we were not left with the burden of hundreds of thousands of medical bills to pay, thanks to universal healthcare.

Now, as for the democrats, they talk a good game, but it's only lip service, they still take money from big drug and insurance companies, and in spite of all their proposals, they never put in full funding to make it viable, and they are afraid to say to people, yes we are raising your taxes, and you may not benefit from it directly, but the country as a whole will.

This is a me first society so unless its something that benefits the individual rather than the greater society as a whole, it won't get off the ground.

Thanks to the high taxes others paid back home when I was growing up, I was fully insured, my education was free, and I got a government grant to go to college, where I got my degree.

I left college debt free, and now I have a good job over here, I pay taxes and I organize a golf tournament and charity monthly hockey game to benefit the American Cancer Society.

But without higher taxes, and government help, I would never have been able to afford to go to college and would be stuck at home, getting drunk and into fights like I did when I was younger, they cycle would have kept going.

But don't mistake healthcare woes here as a one party problem, there is plenty of blame to go to everyone

[ExitTwoEighty 7]

I just saw this movie, and I thought it was very informative. Though it may seem biased, it's a different side to the story because the HMO's and insurance are always feeding their stories through the media.

I agree mostly with Allsmokenopancake's view on the democrats. It seems to me that there are a few conservative democrats that don't follow the plan.

[mack 44]

I still haven't seen an NHS hospital like the one he shows.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

The right vs left arguement is pointless. They're all being paid off anyway. Im a crazy pinko commie liberal but i'll be voting for Ron Paul in 2008. I enjoy his crazy liberal thinking, even though hes a Republican.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

The right vs left arguement is pointless. They're all being paid off anyway. Im a crazy pinko commie liberal but i'll be voting for Ron Paul in 2008. I enjoy his crazy liberal thinking, even though hes a Republican.

He is more of a libertarian, and I would think he will be well off the ballots by super tuesday, especially since he came out and said he wouldn't put it past the government to stage an attack to gain support again now.

That was just a couple of days ago

[daca 0]

By that token, do you want them in charge of justice, defense, immigration, licensing etc, etc.

Why not just privatize everything, and see how that works out

i don't see this being too far fetched with the current administration.

[kosydar 0]

Bush's administration is composed of a high number of Neo-Cons. They want to impose their views on the people, not privatize every aspect of the government. Sure they are all for lowering taxes, etc., but it is a big misconception that people have about the Republican Party. Neo-Liberals are the ones within the party who really want more libertarian-esque reforms.