Is Scott Stevens one of the top 10 D-men of all time?

[chippa13 1844]

Neidermayer merely above average? That's classic, who writes your material?

[Eazy_b97 1]

Right, Anaheim's win was all Pronger. It had nothing to do with Niedermayer, Selanne, McDonald, and Kunitz all having career or near-career best years. Getzlaf, Penner, and Perry's coming out parties also had nothing to do with it. Beauchemin's development probably didn't help at all and I know that goalie J.S. something or other was just lucky to be playing behind Pronger.

They were all there the year before and all played well for them. There was one major addition, and it was Pronger. They went from losing to a team with Pronger on it, to winning the cup with him. I never said it was all him. I said he was the major addition in their cup year. Could be a coincidence. Usually Hart trophy winners make a difference in your line-up, but hey, you could be right. He probably just got lucky and was riding their coattails. JS wasn't even spectacular last year, Beauch had come out the year before. Nieds got another top D-man to take the pressure off. We'll ignore these facts though. Selanne's "career year" was a whopping 4 points more than the previous season. Some players improved, but that doesn't change Pronger's impact. He was the biggest factor standing in their way the year before, he joins them, plays a huge role, and they win the cup.

[chippa13 1844]

No, you said he led them to the Cup. A nice addition? Absolutely. Did he help? Of course. Would Anaheim still have won had they not acquired him? Possibly. Will we ever know? No.

[Eazy_b97 1]

He also gets the C after they win the cup, shows how much leading he did for the them. In my eyes he did lead them to a cup. He was the major additon, he was he one standing in their way the year before a was the biggest factor from the semi finals loss to the cup win. If you want to piss on the claim, then it's very easy to dismiss Stevens "leading" his team to anything.

[chippa13 1844]

He also gets the C after they win the cup, shows how much leading he did for the them. In my eyes he did lead them to a cup. He was the major additon, he was he one standing in their way the year before a was the biggest factor from the semi finals loss to the cup win. If you want to piss on the claim, then it's very easy to dismiss Stevens "leading" his team to anything.

Say, what is the common thread between Stevens and Pronger? What could it be? Oh, wait, I know, Niedermayer.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Both had better individual seasons without Niedermayer, but got their cups with him. I said Niedermayer is better than Stevens as well. So should I be surprised that playing with good hockey players increases your chance to win?

[chef_ducky 0]

I ask because according to http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Hockey/20...027221-sun.html

He is not.

What do you think of the list? The link has the full story and a bit on each player. Here is the list...

10. Al MacInnis

9. Chris Chelios

8. Larry Robinson

7. Denis Potvin

6. Paul Coffey

5. Eddie Shore

4. Nicklas Lidstrom

3. Ray Bourque

2. Doug Harvey

1. Bobby Orr

Stevens was good...but, who from that list would you take off to make room for him?

Radio said it right for me.

Scott was great for hits, and plays, a true hall of famer, but no, i don't think he is top 10...

Top 15 - Absolutly

[chippa13 1844]

Both had better individual seasons without Niedermayer, but got their cups with him. I said Niedermayer is better than Stevens as well. So should I be surprised that playing with good hockey players increases your chance to win?

But Pronger led the Ducks to the Cup. Not the captain of the team? The guy who would have had the "C" this year if he hadn't dillidallied the beginning of the season?

[Eazy_b97 1]

Ya, the guy who beat out Niedermayer's team the year before, as an 8th seed, was then traded to the Ducks and lead them to the cup. The one who had more average TOI than Niedermayer, more points than Niedermayer (tied for second on the team, with 2 less games than the others tied), and lead the team in +/-.

[Chadd 916]

I'd question Chelios on there a bit...amazing longevity for sure, but I don't know if at his peak he could be one of the 10 best d-men ever.

A name I'd throw up for discussion would be Leetch, ridiculous skill level.

Chelios in his prime was a top ten of all time. Granted that was almost 15 years ago, but still.

He won his third Norris Trophy more than a decade ago, most people here were too young to remember his best years in Chicago, let alone his start in Montreal.

Fun fact:

From 84-85 to 96-97 only Ray Bourque, Paul Coffey, Chris Chelios and Brian Leetch won the Norris trophy.

You never saw Leetch play in his prime. Leetchie belongs on that top 10 list. And Stevens doesn't.

Exactly

[chippa13 1844]

Fun with numbers. Don't bother noting that the difference in average TOI was a mere 21 seconds or that Niedermayer had 2 game winners to Pronger's 0. Heck, Beauchemin played more than either of them but noone is accusing him of leading the Ducks to the Cup.

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

[Eazy_b97 1]

Fun with numbers. Don't bother noting that the difference in average TOI was a mere 21 seconds or that Niedermayer had 2 game winners to Pronger's 0. Heck, Beauchemin played more than either of them but noone is accusing him of leading the Ducks to the Cup.

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Shall we ignore the fact he was tossed in 2 games hurting his TOI totals as well? I'm not sure you are even trying to argue this point, it's really very minor. He has a Cup, a Hart, a Norris and a few gold medals (Olympics, World Cups, etc.). That's more than Stevens. If you want to compare him to Niedermayer, who doesn't have the Hart, you can do so. Pronger didn't have the GWG, but he did have the points, plus minus, TOI going for him. He also beat out his team the previous year, while Edmonton (Pronger's team) was a weaker seed.

So what is it you are getting at here? That he didn't lead him all by himself? Stevens didn't lead NJ by himself, Niedermayer didn't lead Anahiem or NJ on his own. Or do you just feel like bickering?

[chippa13 1844]

Ducks record:

Pre-Niedermayer: 14-14-4

Post-Neidermayer: 28-11-4

But Pronger is the difference.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Pre-Niedermayer and Selanne, which you omitted from your post. They are 12 games above .500 since his return, so he definately helps alot too. Plus the first part of the season they were also missing Schneider, which hurts their record too. Came out of the gate with a 3-6-2 record in the first month, Schneider missing all of October.

Pre-Pronger, top 4 team. Post Pronger, Cup favourites and winner. My comment was about Cup winners and him leading them to a cup.

Again, I'll ask. What is your issue here. This was about Stevens. You've made it into a Niedermayer Pronger debate. Not sure why. Maybe you are bored, maybe you didn't understand, maybe you like to argue. I've shown the minutes, I've shown the points. You've shown regular season results, I've shown playoff results. Niedermayer may be a better player, but he didn't take them to the finals without Pronger. Pronger took his team there, a weaker team which fell apart losing him and some others (Peca, Samsonov, etc..). You want a Pronger vs. Niedermayer thread, then start one. If you want to stay on topic, no player can singlehandedly lead a team to a cup. Stevens had a strong supporting cast and so did Pronger. Both NJ and Anahiem were unable to win the cup without these D-men.

\\

[LkptTiger 1]

Maybe it's because I'm a Devils fan, but Stevens always just seemed to be more of a necessary presence for me - aside from Marty, I would say he was the most "important" Devil throughout the course of his career (he wasn't the "best" player on the team or even the best defenseman in the line-up, but he was always THERE in a way I don't think any player ever really was or has been since; Scott was the driving force behind his team, I think). When Stevens went down after Kubina caught him with the dump-in in '03, it was pretty obvious that the entire Devils' bench went into a bit of shock. The rest of the game just didn't "feel" right - and NJ ended-up losing in probably one of the most lack-luster playoff games I've seen them play. Scotty comes back next game, plays very well AND adds a pretty big goal to seal the game.

I'm not sure I can say the same for Pronger. He's a terrific player, sure - but I just don't see him as being as irreplaceable as Stevens was for so many years. Watching the last couple playoff runs made by Pronger's teams, I didn't quite get the feeling that he was LEADING those teams in the way someone of his stature might be capable of...and, lets face it, Anaheim did pretty well in the games he sat-out due to overwhelming scumminess.

[chippa13 1844]

Considering that your argument is that Pronger was the reason for the Ducks Cup, the discussion has to be a Pronger/Niedermayer debate. Your simply assertion that the only difference between the 05-06 and 06-07 Ducks was Pronger forces it to be, since you discount the fact that guys on the front end like Kunitz, McDonald, Selanne, Getzlaf, Perry, Penner, heck, even Moen all had superb years. It couldn't have been the goalie that rose to the challenge, the one who already had a Conn Smythe trophy. No, it had to be Pronger and nothing but.

[mack 44]

To me it'd be the same thing if Pronger was on the Ducks before Niedermayer, they still would have come up short. Pronger is still deserving of the Conn Smythe that year he was on Edmonton, but it took more than just him coming aboard for the Ducks to win it.

[chippa13 1844]

These debates are the great thing about sport and hockey is one of the best for it. As one announcer or color man said earlier this season, "Is there any other sport where two people can see the exact same play and have two completely different opinions of what happened?" One of the things I have enjoyed about Center Ice this year is the amount of games for which they carry both feeds. I'll often flip back and forth after a particular play to see what each side has to say.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Considering that your argument is that Pronger was the reason for the Ducks Cup, the discussion has to be a Pronger/Niedermayer debate. Your simply assertion that the only difference between the 05-06 and 06-07 Ducks was Pronger forces it to be, since you discount the fact that guys on the front end like Kunitz, McDonald, Selanne, Getzlaf, Perry, Penner, heck, even Moen all had superb years. It couldn't have been the goalie that rose to the challenge, the one who already had a Conn Smythe trophy. No, it had to be Pronger and nothing but.

He creates room. Giggy wasn't playing his best, he did that when he won the Conn Smythe. He didn't really excel last season in the playoffs, he played well, but wasn't playing out of his head. A few broke out, a few didn't, but is it a coincidence that the year he comes is the year a few of these players rise up? It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch considering the circumstances, he appears the be the player who put'em over the top. I've posted the stats. Nobody can win anything on their own, the supporting cast was obvious, but it certainly seems like he was a clincher. Hell, it was said when the deal was made, thats how Lowe got an extra first. If someone wants to claim that Stevens lead the Devils to the cup, when Niedermayer was playing well, Lemieux was conn smythe worth, and they have arguably the best goalie of all time, you have to think Pronger was able to do the same thing with the Ducks. Took a strong core to the next level.

My argument is that Pronger was the difference. Without him, they have a much tougher time. They may have won, we won't know, but we do know he was the main factor stopping them the year before, and then went on to win the cup the next year. I did not dismiss the others improvements, you jumped to that conclusion and have harped on it since. Their young players stepped up. Maybe it's them evolving as players, maybe it's having at least one solid D-man on the ice at all times. Someone like Pronger to open the ice up. It's a fact that Pronger's team beat Anahiem the year before, and they were not favoured in that series. Then the next year, he wins the cup, being the major addition, with his GM claiming he will assure them a cup at the time. Certainly seems like it's fair to say he lead them there. Especially when you considerin the icetime, points, plus minus and role on the team.

[booyaagrandma 4]

If they made a list of dirty head hunters, Stevens would be #1.

I totally agree,all the others on the list brought a degree of skill,Stevens made a career of questionable hits.

[cxo 0]

If they made a list of dirty head hunters, Stevens would be #1.

I totally agree,all the others on the list brought a degree of skill,Stevens made a career of questionable hits.

He definitely made his fair share of bad moves, but he did a fair amount more than that...

[chippa13 1844]

Please, Chris Pronger isn't some messiah who magically leads teams to the Cup. Just ask St. Louis and Hartford.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Please, Chris Pronger isn't some messiah who magically leads teams to the Cup. Just ask St. Louis and Hartford.

You're the one who has said this, not me. I'm saying he was the difference from the Semi's to the Cup for them. You're the one who has been crying and stretching words this whole time. Trying to re-work my post and making assumptions from it. Most of this "Debate" has been you jumping to conclusions, my explaining, then you jumping to another one. I've asked twice what your point is, but you've ignored it. This last post clearly shows you are selectively reading as I've said he can't win it by himself, but you are chosing to ignore it. Maybe because you're struggling to put up valid points? You skewed the Niedermayer stat, and left out Schneider's injuries (Nieds replacement at the time) and Selanne being injured as well. Then you tried to defend the icetime with Beauch, but neglected to say the numbers were skewed because of PRonger's suspension and Beauch's big minute games came with Pronger out of the line-up, so he was a secondary option. So again, what is your point, what is it you are trying to argue? Did Pronger not lead Anahiem in the way Stevens lead NJ? Both had a good supporting cast, but both were huge parts. Both were necessary for the team to win the cup, as they didn't win before/after with a similar core.

[chippa13 1844]

Please, Chris Pronger isn't some messiah who magically leads teams to the Cup. Just ask St. Louis and Hartford.

You're the one who has said this, not me. I'm saying he was the difference from the Semi's to the Cup for them. You're the one who has been crying and stretching words this whole time. Trying to re-work my post and making assumptions from it. Most of this "Debate" has been you jumping to conclusions, my explaining, then you jumping to another one. I've asked twice what your point is, but you've ignored it. This last post clearly shows you are selectively reading as I've said he can't win it by himself, but you are chosing to ignore it. Maybe because you're struggling to put up valid points? You skewed the Niedermayer stat, and left out Schneider's injuries (Nieds replacement at the time) and Selanne being injured as well. Then you tried to defend the icetime with Beauch, but neglected to say the numbers were skewed because of PRonger's suspension and Beauch's big minute games came with Pronger out of the line-up, so he was a secondary option. So again, what is your point, what is it you are trying to argue? Did Pronger not lead Anahiem in the way Stevens lead NJ? Both had a good supporting cast, but both were huge parts. Both were necessary for the team to win the cup, as they didn't win before/after with a similar core.

Wrong, the only reason I brought up Beauchemin's TOI was because you tried to use Pronger's as the reason he was the end-all, be-all of the Ducks Cup run. If I understand your logic, Beauchemin's average TOI got to 30 minutes a game because of Pronger being suspended for 2 games. In order for that to happen, Beauchemin would have had to play about 40 minutes a game for those 2 games, if he wasn't already getting a ton of ice time. I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.

[Eazy_b97 1]

What's wrong? You still haven't answered any of the questions. You've been dodging for some time now. Everything I said about his TOI was true, sorry Chip, it's all there for you to go and read if you want. You don't understand my logic, that's clear. You've struggling comprehending this entire time. The logic is very simple. Pronger was tossed and suspended in the playoffs. In the suspended game, Beauch was rewarded with more TOI, since Pronger wasn't there. If you take out his extra minutes, they are roughly even for TOI/G (quick calculations).

Now are you going to actually show something, or answer any questions, or will you continue to misquote, and avoid relating this back to Stevens? Really you haven't done much to prove your case. Maybe you should go back, read my comments then read your replies. There's alot of guessing on your behalf. But I'm not surprised, you've thrown out alot of minor attempts to discredit me without anything of value. You create something from my post (that isn't in there, you skew it to make it so) then continually bring it up in your attempt to strengthen your position.