Some Thoughts on Skate Marketing

[mack 44]

Way to stand behind the company, Ken Lay

[LkptTiger 1]

So you're trashing NBH because their marketing team does their job better than their counterparts at Graf? Take a look around, because it looks like their R&D boys have been outworking your guys, too. They're 2-2.

There is something to be said for the guy who is willing to push the envelope a bit - especially given the success Bauer/NikeBauer has had in the past.

[GrafPro55 0]

Well I have to go to work in the morning and make skates. I'll be sure to tell the VP that Graf is junk and from now on, I'll stop forming opinions. I'm terribly sorry I had one on this topic. You guys are obviously the gods of the hockey world. I apologize.

[team50 20]

that could be the new Graf marketing slogan.

[mack 44]

Is that before or after you give him coffee, big shot?

[PWBIII 0]

You could probably print out this whole thread and give it to your VP. I don't see how it could hurt at all.

[GrafPro55 0]

Way to stand behind the company, Ken Lay

I can't win with you. If I said "Go buy Graf" you would freak about how I am forcing it down your throat. If I say "Buy whatever you want" You get on my ass for not standing behind my company. Grow up.

[mack 44]

Way to stand behind the company, Ken Lay

I can't win with you. If I said "Go buy Graf" you would freak about how I am forcing it down your throat. If I say "Buy whatever you want" You get on my ass for not standing behind my company. Grow up.

In a sense yes, I wouldn't want someone schilling their product like others have tried but at the same time you pass stuff off onto other departments. "That's not my department" is like your mantra, but have you said what exactly is your department? Sure as shit isn't the PR department.

[mack 44]

Did we just lose Graf's backing on the site? I hope not, because I'll feel bad like the one time Saturn pulled their line-up from an auto show I went to.

[GrafPro55 0]

Way to stand behind the company, Ken Lay

I can't win with you. If I said "Go buy Graf" you would freak about how I am forcing it down your throat. If I say "Buy whatever you want" You get on my ass for not standing behind my company. Grow up.

In a sense yes, I wouldn't want someone schilling their product like others have tried but at the same time you pass stuff off onto other departments. "That's not my department" is like your mantra, but have you said what exactly is your department? Sure as shit isn't the PR department.

What exactly, may I ask, Is your department? I really am not in charge of marketing. It's not my department. Let me explain this a little more clear. When I go to work, the door I walk through doesn't say "Marketing". I seem have run out of ways to explain this. My door doesn't say PR either. You are correct, sir.

I am really sad I don't have the approval of some guy named "mack" in Alaska. It'll probably really hurt my self esteem, but I'll live. To everyone else on here who would appreciate advice or knowledge, I am always happy to help. Not everyone is bitter. Some still love hockey and the gear.

[LkptTiger 1]

Belittling the consumer isn't good business practice - no matter what department you work in. I don't care if you're a Rep or not; you're being connected to the company (you're REPRESENTING Graf).

I'm beginning to wonder if Graf might be somehow affiliated with Kinko's.

[GrafPro55 0]

Belittling me is okay, though? I am really starting to get an idea of what kind of crew this is.

I have never said anything bad about Graf. I have always been helpful to those asking me advice about Grafs. I am always express how much I like the product. I would say I represent Graf just fine.

[mack 44]

Again no mention of his department. I guess he is Graf's Finch, but not funny.

[GrafPro55 0]

Again no mention of his department. I guess he is Graf's Finch, but not funny.

Ummmmmm. Department. Right under my name. Has been there since I joined the forum.

[LkptTiger 1]

Tyler, if I were to "go it alone" the way you are here, I think I'd definitely take a look at myself and ask a question like "why?".

*pist* this would be as good a place as any to start your self-exploration: http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...sult_type=posts

[mack 44]

I see that Tyler, just not drinking the Kool-Aid.

[LkptTiger 1]

The last time I drank Kool-Aid, I woke-up in the middle of the night and blew chunky fruit punch all over myself. Being about 6 at the time, it was an experience that has scarred me for the rest of my youth and adolescent life.

[mack 44]

Then, as well as for other reasons, never try Rock Star Fruit Punch. I didn't know if the fizzing was the carbonation or my teeth disintegrating.

[TheBert 0]

"Tyler" is still in his reality distortion field where every other skate only sells because of marketing -- not because they actually make a good skate.

Re: "being allowed an opinion" -- I think it's clear that since "Tyler" indicates he works for Graf, he really shouldn't be giving his opinion (especially negative ones) on other brands. If he wants to pass judgement and spread misinformation on other companies' products and post as unprofessionally as he has, he should drop all the Graf affiliations from his username.

If there is any example of how an employee from a company should conduct themselves on MSH, take a look at Justin when he used to post as a Mission employee. "Tyler" would be fine if he stuck to sharing info and promoting Graf like Justin used to. Instead he's all up in arms about not being able to voice his negative opinions of other brands -- which, frankly, only consumers like the rest of us are supposed to.

[D aka speck 0]

It's hard for me to imagine that any public figure from any company would make the posts in this thread.

Although I applaude Tyler for his belief in his company, I think he should stop digging the proverbial hole.

Honestly, my best guess is that he builds pro skates and (if that is the case) could be a very productive and knowledgable member here.

He just needs to start behaving, or learn to behave like a public representative with professionalism and dignity.

[Zamboni 6]

Good points D aka speck, possibly not being very busy at work (building Pro Graf skates) is the motivating factor behind his posts. Or Graf had one of those 'rally round the brand' meetings, urged employees to promote the company online and wherever consumers meet-is this thread Graf's marketting strategy Tyler?

Early in the thread someone noted perhaps you answered phones or cleaned the shitter. Nobody answers Grafs phones or replies to emails, so if those are your areas of responsibility when no Pro orders come in I hope the cans clean.

[DarkStar50 679]

From the old news page, I have been an equipment buyer in the hockey business since 1980. I recently talked with a former NBH executive management guy about the job NBH has done with Nike on board over the last ten years. His quote, "Nike simply left us alone to do our jobs on equipment with the product. They hardly even looked over our shoulder." There you have it. Everyone who swears that Nike is responsible for everything "Nike wrong" with hockey doesn't know jack about what they are talking about. The people at Bauer and St Jerome today are mainly the same people at Canstar and St Jerome in 1995 before Nike bought Bauer. These are the same people that in 1998 released the original Vapor 8 skate to the pros. The Vapor 8 and its family of skates was certainly a 24-36 month project before they ever hit retail. This pushes back the whole idea of Vapor skates to 1995-96, before Nike closed the deal on Bauer. That foundation of groundwork with R D & D is what has led us to where the Vapor line is today. For anyone to say there is no innovation in the NBH skate line is a simple and sad expression of ignorance.

As a buyer, I have to look at every skate from a vendor at its price point with its features and benefits. Then I have to look at each skate in the price point compared to the competition. NBH has gone beyond getting it right each year easily over the last 5 years. The competition keeps shooting themselves in the foot and offers product that is not comparative to NBH at the price point. That isn't marketing to me. That is your product line-up. When the other vendors catch up, then we will have a fight. There is an inside the industry saying that goes back about 7 years ago when NBH was just getting aggressive in OPS and trying to get started in the category against Easton. This was at the same time that Easton was trying to establish their skate line in the market. The saying is "Easton will figure out how to make skates before NBH figures out how to make OPS." Well, guess what? Easton is still trying to figure out how to make skates that could compete with NBH while NBH has taken away significant product share in OPS against Easton. None of this is marketing. It is about product. Give the consumer a great product and it will trump marketing anytime. NBH has produced great new product year after year.

While NBH was pushing the envelope with skate design and innovation and Easton was at least trying to open the envelope, Graf did exactly what CCM did with the Tacks line-up. They both did next to nothing to innovate their skates. Now as a buyer, the idea is to show me something new and innovative each season. The idea that Graf and Tacks would sell forever, as is, was a huge mistake. CCM is now getting back in the game. The U+ has potential. As for Graf, I cannot really get too excited. Demand is next to nothing and so is the discount to book! At least give a dealer an incentive to buy and we will start to think about the product. Also, the point about high end only in Graf is true. There is no full family of Graf skates. It is impossible to get young players to learn to love your fit when there is nothing of substance there to offer them. I guess this an example of a lack of marketing. Although, it is really, as I say, about the product and there is nothing there to offer to create a Graf kid.

[dangle 0]

^^ i just read through this whole thread and this is icing on the cake

/thread :)

[duch 0]

Just some more food for thought. I've had every major make of skate. Love the comfort of the CCM boot. Love the on ice feel and comfort of the Nike/Bauer Vapor. I love the responsiveness/comfort of the Easton composite skates. I love the heel lock/comfort of the Mission 110. All this brought about by research and development over the years. A distant cry from years ago when there was only two major players CCM and Bauer. The competition between these companies is a good thing to develop the product but as with everything in life its a give and take deal. To make the advancements we've made with skate technology we've given up durability and prices have skyrocketed on top end skates. From what I can see Nike/Bauer has been the most successful with marketing. Well over 60 per cent of NHLers are Nike/Bauer users and have been for a long time.They get the kids into their skates and keep them there, thats great market tactical. I think Graf uses a totally different marketing angle.They know they have a good solid product so they say we sit on it. Let's see what the other big guys are doing with their skates. We'll let them go nuts,spend lots of cash on major R&D and see what they come up with. Then we wait a little longer and see what works with the new technology and what is a disasterous. All the time we're still selling our skates at a steady rate because we have a solid product. Now we can see what is working for the other guys how can we incorporate some of the things that are working to make an even better product. If we have a failure due to some defect materials we can eat that because we've already saved millions in R&D development that the other guys have done for us. Now we're still playing catch up but our products are lighter or more responsive but still great quality. We keep selling skates at a steady rate because word of mouth says we sell a quality and durable product.

What in essence I'm saying is Graf doesn't wasnt to be number one. They just want to keep selling skates. It keeps the company viable and stable and you know when you come in Monday morning you have a job. Yes, it's a European way of thinking but it works. Remember when you're number one you have only two options, to stay number one or to go down. Anyone of your competators who make advances will do it at the expense of your market share.

[bucko 0]

what is a european way of thinking?? i think graf built their skates old school as long as they could, because all that new innovations are expensive and as you might know graf is not as big as bauer, ccm, easton... so what i can say for graf europe, their skates are simply better in quality and durability than all the light weight products from the bigger companies, not less not more. but you might not benefit from it when durability is not a point for you, like the pros. it doesnt matter how much pairs of skates they re going through a season. the situation in europe is a little bit different than in north america, the amount of pro players who wear graf is a lot higher than in northern america. so sure this can have to do with the (maybe) better quality and customer service in europe, but it also can have to do with missing sponsorships and big deals for the players, so they chose what fits their feet the best, and thats what you guys should do also.

i would say innovations are not a thing where graf is big, but they are a tiny little companie witch is still on the market with very good manufactured skates, for a reason. the other thing is, if graf would have more money and would grow bigger you can be sure that they would sponsor some guys like crosby or anybody else, so first cames quality and then marketing.

btw. back to topic, it is not called "beat the sh** out of a graf rep" ...