Poll shows N.C. residents don't know Hurricanes exist

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

The Canes revenue is actually better than quite a few Canadian clubs...

I'm, uh, gonna ask for a source on that one.

[Monty22 832]

I'd love to see any future expansion/franchise movement away from the non-traditional hockey markets and back to Canada and the more traditional US Markets. I'd say Hartford, but no one in their right mind would put a team in that crap hole. It's a city on the rapid decline. Not to mention Bettman wanted the team out and none of the area teams would ever allow it.

[UMWhockey 0]

I moved to Raleigh from DC 3 years ago and can say that the fan base down here is right in line with a lot of your middle of the pack NHL markets now. Since the Canes are really the only professional team in Raleigh they get a good amount of coverage and press and have had a huge impact on youth and adult hockey in the area. I would have never thought that the youth programs would be as strong as they are. I coach travel hockey in the area and we are very competative when we go up to Mass, NY and Pitt for tournaments and would even say that we spread our talent a little thin down here. We have 6 sheets of ice in the area and when the winter comes around everyone is alwasy fighting for ice time because there is a little shortage. While 18% of people don't know the Hurricanes are here, I would be interested to see what the numbers are in other locations. The canes have some good roots down here and as long as youth hockey stays strong, the hockey market down here is going to continue to build.

[the_sock 1]

I didn't mean to slag on the Canes, they deserved the Cup that year. So did the Lightning (although they beat my Flames).

With a better dollar and with more "manageable" finances put forward in the new CBA, Canada can take new teams, Quebec City, Winnipeg and Hamilton can support an NHL franchise. They moved because of the issues at the time, skyrocketing salaries and a very weak dollar. You can thank the Leafs for no new team in the area of Windsor to Ottawa.

I hope that the Canes don't move or fold.

[chippa13 1844]

I moved to Raleigh from DC 3 years ago and can say that the fan base down here is right in line with a lot of your middle of the pack NHL markets now. Since the Canes are really the only professional team in Raleigh they get a good amount of coverage and press and have had a huge impact on youth and adult hockey in the area. I would have never thought that the youth programs would be as strong as they are. I coach travel hockey in the area and we are very competative when we go up to Mass, NY and Pitt for tournaments and would even say that we spread our talent a little thin down here. We have 6 sheets of ice in the area and when the winter comes around everyone is alwasy fighting for ice time because there is a little shortage. While 18% of people don't know the Hurricanes are here, I would be interested to see what the numbers are in other locations. The canes have some good roots down here and as long as youth hockey stays strong, the hockey market down here is going to continue to build.

This is the real good news of Carolina. Youth hockey players grow up to be adult, ticket buying fans.

[JJ Thompson94 0]

Another point is, the canes need to be in a market for atleast 20 years before you can really say if the team is successful. It's hard to get adults that are set in their ways, into hockey. You need to get the young kids and then wait for them to grow up.

[stock07 1]

Another point is, the canes need to be in a market for atleast 20 years before you can really say if the team is successful. It's hard to get adults that are set in their ways, into hockey. You need to get the young kids and then wait for them to grow up.

Which makes this thread non sense from here on...bring it back up in a few years....lol

[UMWhockey 0]

it's not even so much waiting 20 years... more that as more kids start to play they will start to get their friends more interested in the sport and even playing... more kids that play are going to bring more families to RBC for games. A majority of the parents of the kids I coach didn't even really know anything about hockey or really watch it until their kids got into it. Now they are season ticket holders. It takes time, and with the way Raleigh is growing I don't think the Canes are going to have much of a problem growing their fan base even more

[Chadd 916]

I didn't mean to slag on the Canes, they deserved the Cup that year. So did the Lightning (although they beat my Flames).

With a better dollar and with more "manageable" finances put forward in the new CBA, Canada can take new teams, Quebec City, Winnipeg and Hamilton can support an NHL franchise. They moved because of the issues at the time, skyrocketing salaries and a very weak dollar. You can thank the Leafs for no new team in the area of Windsor to Ottawa.

I hope that the Canes don't move or fold.

And what happens in five or six years when the currencies are 20-30 cents apart again? QC and Winnipeg can't support NHL teams over the long haul and Hamilton would kill an existing franchise. The only way a new franchise in canada makes sense is if they are in downtown Toronto.

[DarkStar50 679]

Like that might ever happen! Jeez.............

The NHL offices are in NYC. Bettman, Daly, and the rest in the NHL office are Americans. 80% of the NHL is in the US. That means 80% of the NHL Board of Governors is US. Are we sensing a trend here? I love going to Canada to watch hockey and soak up the hockey atmosphere but essentially, as far as the NHL mucky-mucks care, Canada, you're screwed. And I am really sorry to say that because it is BS. Even if an existing NHL US based team moves to Kansas City or Portland or wherever in the US before a Winnipeg or QC gets a shot at an NHL franchise, it is ridiculous. The US hockey market for the NHL is beyond tapped out, it is spent.

[UMWhockey 0]

The one thing with the Non-tradational markets in the US is that is almost all cases, winning brings the people out. Look at Carolina's attendance right after winning the cup. When you go to a market like Raleigh or Tampa it is going to take a long time for the fan base to really grow because really you need to start with the kids if you are going to have long term success. Also, don't forget when the Cane's moved down here they didn't play in Raleigh for the first couple seasons, but in Greensboro. I for one could care less if an NHL owner makes money in a non-tradational market because I am more concerned with how it effects the youth hockey market in the area. I think we can say that for the most part, these teams have really done a good job of creating much larger and better youth hockey in thoes areas.

[Chadd 916]

I think we can say that for the most part, these teams have really done a good job of creating much larger and better youth hockey in thoes areas.

That's the one thing a team in Canada can't do; create new hockey fans where they didn't exist before.

[DarkStar50 679]

Is the NHL more interested in trying to create new fans in the US to hopefully prop up a struggling franchise(Nashville, Fla Panthers, Phoenix come to mind) or should the NHL be more interested in taking the game to a Winnipeg or Quebec City that has fans ready, willing, and able to support an NHL franchise? Bettman spent the 90s trying to do the first idea. It worked ouf for his wallet(personal bonuses he collected for new franchises) but not the NHL as a business. Maybe it's time to try the second idea and see where that goes for the business of the game. Not that I expect this to happen anytime soon or ever.

[chippa13 1844]

It is the same in every business. The path to success is growth. When a business is looking to expand, they don't expand into a saturated market but into an untapped market. Taking teams north to Canada from US cities will lose more than it will gain, both at the grass roots and corporate sponsonship levels.

[Chadd 916]

Is the NHL more interested in trying to create new fans in the US to hopefully prop up a struggling franchise(Nashville, Fla Panthers, Phoenix come to mind) or should the NHL be more interested in taking the game to a Winnipeg or Quebec City that has fans ready, willing, and able to support an NHL franchise? Bettman spent the 90s trying to do the first idea. It worked ouf for his wallet(personal bonuses he collected for new franchises) but not the NHL as a business. Maybe it's time to try the second idea and see where that goes for the business of the game. Not that I expect this to happen anytime soon or ever.

I'm not against relocating franchises that show that they are unable or unwilling to support NHL hockey. I just think you have to be very careful assuming that Winnipeg and QC will be able to support NHL franchises. Even with the dollar parity, those cities only have around 700k people. Without access to the full demographic information, that seems very small for an NHL franchise. Doubly so, once you consider the massive increase in ticket prices since those cities last had NHL teams.

[DarkStar50 679]

Check some population stats for some NHL cities. There are not as many people in some of these NHL cites as Winnipeg or QC.

[chippa13 1844]

Perhaps not directly in the city itself but when you factor in the surrounding area, most likely there's more folks than the greater Winnipeg or Quebec areas.

[DarkStar50 679]

Ok, now what % of the population is hockey fans?

I know we are just going back and forth. The NHL won't return to Winnipeg or QC. It just really sucks because there are hard-core NHL fans in those areas as opposed to your basic American NHL team newbie fan. The USA fan gets on board when the team is winning since it's cool but once the team hits the skids, the fan is on to other diversions and ways to spend his money.

I do agree with the Carolina guys who are getting the kids involved in hockey as a result of the Canes. As long as kids take up the game and have access to ice time, hockey will have a foundation. The USA Hockey teams coming out of Texas, Florida, and California were all very strong at the Peewee and Bantam AAA and AA levels when we hosted the 2008 USA Hockey Championships at the Ice House in Hackensack, NJ. The bottom line is participation in the game for kids. The NHL talks the talk but rarely walks the walk when it comes to getting kids into hockey. Kids get kids into hockey.

[Chadd 916]

Perhaps not directly in the city itself but when you factor in the surrounding area, most likely there's more folks than the greater Winnipeg or Quebec areas.

I used the Metro numbers, not just the city populations. Winnipeg has more in the city iteself, QC has more once you factor in the metro area. 700k and 713k are the official numbers for each metro area.

Check some population stats for some NHL cities. There are not as many people in some of these NHL cites as Winnipeg or QC.

Buffalo has just under 300k in the city, but 1.2M in the metro and we all know that a large portion of their fanbase comes across the border. Just a few years ago, Calgary and Edmonton were in danger, QC and Winnipeg are both roughly 30% smaller than those two cities.

[TheBert 0]

This discussion on HFboards on this topic usually turns to corporate support. Without seeing the books, no one can know for sure, but I get the feeling that the ability to sell luxury boxes to the well-suited set in any city should be part of this talk.

[DarkStar50 679]

This guy is pretty smart. Here is what he has to say about Winnipeg, Hamilton, and QC.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=244291&amp...os=topStory_nhl

[Chadd 916]

This guy is pretty smart. Here is what he has to say about Winnipeg, Hamilton, and QC.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=244291&amp...os=topStory_nhl

This is the third or fouth time he has said the same thing to TSN. It sounds good and feeds the collective Canadian ego but it doesn't mean the financial support is there. Halifax has a total metro population of around 400k people. You would need to have 16-18k people averaging $60 or so. Can it happen? maybe, but I think it's a bit unlikely. I'm not sold on QC or WInnipeg supporting teams, obviously Hamilton would kill Buffalo and Halifax seems like utter nonsense.

[chippa13 1844]

Perhaps not directly in the city itself but when you factor in the surrounding area, most likely there's more folks than the greater Winnipeg or Quebec areas.

I used the Metro numbers, not just the city populations. Winnipeg has more in the city iteself, QC has more once you factor in the metro area. 700k and 713k are the official numbers for each metro area.

Check some population stats for some NHL cities. There are not as many people in some of these NHL cites as Winnipeg or QC.

Buffalo has just under 300k in the city, but 1.2M in the metro and we all know that a large portion of their fanbase comes across the border. Just a few years ago, Calgary and Edmonton were in danger, QC and Winnipeg are both roughly 30% smaller than those two cities.

I should have quoted him but my response was to Darkstar's comments.

[DarkStar50 679]

Say 40% of the 1.2mil in Buffalo are hockey fans. That = 480,000 fans. If 75% (a fair number) of the 700,000 in Winnipeg are hockey fans it will = 525,000 fans. There are 8mil people in NYC. They are not all football fans. The percentage of football fans in Pittsburgh(population ?) could be a lot higher than in NYC. It is not just the population of an area that has to be considered. Let's move on and understand there are demographics involved that really begin any rational location decision. Look at corporations in the surrounding area that can afford those luxury boxes, look at disposable income, the list goes on and on. I am sure Karmanos did all this before he decided to move to NC.

[Neal 41]

I haven't lived in Winnipeg since 95, but IIRC a key contributor to what killed the Jets was the lack of large corporations in the area. There just weren't enough big bucks corporations willing to buy luxury suites (if the old Arena would have had them) or to pick up the expensive tickets.

If that hasn't changed, a new Jets franchise would be a tough deal. Yes there are probably a higher percentage of hockey fans in Winnipeg than any American city, but are those same fans wealthy enough to buy season tickets? Are there enough corporations in town to buy luxury suites?