Questions about CHL and NCAA hockey

[FatAndSlow 0]

First of all, I realize that a CHL player forgoes their NCAA eligibliity and am starting to realize that NCAA hockey has some pretty old guys in it. But from a skill and style perspective, how are the CHL and NCAA (Div 1) hockey different? How big is the "gap" (if any) between the talent in the CHL vs NCAA?

Hypothetically, let's suppose there is a 20 year old CHL forward, who is a top 10 scorer in the CHL, and he COULD play Div 1 NCAA. He's played in the CHL for 4 years. How would he perform in Div 1? Would he hold his own or would he dominate or would he get dominated because he's going against 23-24 year olds?

Finally, if one player goes to the CHL and another goes to NCAA Div 1 hockey, what are some of the paths for each of these guys to make the NHL?

I'm new to all this and I'm trying to get a better understanding.

Thanks in advance,

FatAndSlow

[Cavs019 710]

I'd say they are pretty comparable in terms of talent simply on the basis of the NHL players that are coming from both areas, as well as the degree of competition at the World Junior U-20 tournament between the US and Canada. While Canada has more high end talent overall, the NCAA and CHL are fairly close. For example, Zach Parise and Jack Johnson were studs at the NCAA level, and based on their draft positions, performances at WJC tournaments and now in the NHL, would have been top players in any of the Canadian junior leagues. This would also apply to any of the top Canadian players who played in major junior instead of NCAA.

[B19Kress 0]

I think it all depends on what team you are talking about to have a reasonable chance to make it to the show from college hockey. Most of what I know is from the CCHA specifically. You have a pretty good shot at NHL/AHL if you are from Michigan, MSU, and Miami (OH), and maybe throw Notre Dame in there too. But some of the smaller schools like Ferris State, Western Michigan, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan.. you are probably looking at the ECHL, if anything..

[samson35 0]

I think you have to throw Boston College into that mix. There are top notch players on that team and there have been plenty of NHLers from the Boston College program as well as future NHLers on the team right now. It's too bad college hockey doesn't seem to get a lot of coverage in Canada. It's some quality hockey that isn't far off from the CHL.

[Yoke 0]

Most teams in the WCHA have at least a couple guys in the NHL at this point. Most are from UND and Minnesota.

[B19Kress 0]

Thats why I said I was talking about the CCHA specifically... I dont know much about WCHA or Hockey East.. but yes Boston College, North Dakota, Minnesota and even Wisconsin put some players in the Show..

Also.. I meant Lake Superior State, not Michigan Tech in my previous post

[Rustpot 1]

Michigan Tech churned out some good players in its day. Chris Connor currently of the Stars, Jarkko Ruutu, Esposito... I think the outgoing senior goalie was drafted.

[jrhky36 1]

most major programs: minn, mich, msu, bgsu, miami, nd, umd, bc,bu,maine, cc, have at least one alumni playing in the nhl.

to answer your question about how they got there it all becomes the same at that point.

get drafted

play in the minors and work up. these days very few "kids" get drafted and play in the nhl with out any time in the minors.

today the ncaa is turning out alot of talented players.

the biggest difference between the two leagues is the amount of games played. the chl plays alot more.

[tips09 0]

This is just my opinion on the 2 leagues... The CHL is more professional like( # of Games with travel.) while the NCAA is not quite like that with very few games compared to the CHL. NCAA is a very good way to get your schooling done while still playing hockey but the CHL does give you a scholarship opportunity... but if you sign a pro contract that scholarship is gone.

[biff44 0]

But that IS the flaw in the CHL scholarship plan. To make it to the NHL, it is likely you will play in the pro minor leagues, like the ECHL. If you are really super, you go right to the AHL from the CHL, but most will do some time in the ECHL or other pro minors. Most of THOSE players will not make the show. So the CHL taunts you with this devil's choice--end your hockey career OR try to make it in the ECHL and loose your scholarship! And that 2nd choice is exactly when you need your scholarship monies the most--you play ECHL for 4 years, figure out you are not going to make it to the show, need to go to college, but have no funds saved up due to playing hockey for peanuts for 4 years! It is almost a scam.

[QandA 0]

But that IS the flaw in the CHL scholarship plan. To make it to the NHL, it is likely you will play in the pro minor leagues, like the ECHL. If you are really super, you go right to the AHL from the CHL, but most will do some time in the ECHL or other pro minors. Most of THOSE players will not make the show. So the CHL taunts you with this devil's choice--end your hockey career OR try to make it in the ECHL and loose your scholarship! And that 2nd choice is exactly when you need your scholarship monies the most--you play ECHL for 4 years, figure out you are not going to make it to the show, need to go to college, but have no funds saved up due to playing hockey for peanuts for 4 years! It is almost a scam.

A scam? How is it a scam? The CHL doesn't make you do anything they don't want to. They give you an opportunity to play in one of the best junior league's in the world. Every player that played in the CHL has the prior opportunity to play NCAA, but decided to play CHL. That was the players decision. You can still play university after trying to play in the ECHL, and you can still get scholarship money. Players are granted the opportunity to play CHL hockey, and than have a good percentage f CIS university paid, I ould not complain.

Most people go into university poor, so is it the end of the world if it's CHLer's. I'm in my second year of university straight out of high school, and if I could play junior another year and than go play university, I would not second guess myself.

[epstud74 24]

The CHL and the USHL are closer in talent per team than the top NCAA programs and the CHL. Most of the top NCAA programs have at least 5-6 players per year move onto pro hockey in some form or another. Minnesota alone has sent guys like Blake Wheeler, Thomas Vanek, Erik Johnson, Phil Kessel, Alex Goligoski, Keith Ballard, Kyle Okposo and Paul Martin to the NHL in recent years. Wisconsin and North Dakota have sent guys like Dany Heatley, TJ Oshie and Jonathan Toews to the show as well. The WCHA has become a NHL draft pick factory, but also losing players often before their junior seasons. I dont think a CHA team can compete with a top tier NCAA team.

[jrhky36 1]

The CHL and the USHL are closer in talent per team than the top NCAA programs and the CHL. Most of the top NCAA programs have at least 5-6 players per year move onto pro hockey in some form or another. Minnesota alone has sent guys like Blake Wheeler, Thomas Vanek, Erik Johnson, Phil Kessel, Alex Goligoski, Keith Ballard, Kyle Okposo and Paul Martin to the NHL in recent years. Wisconsin and North Dakota have sent guys like Dany Heatley, TJ Oshie and Jonathan Toews to the show as well. The WCHA has become a NHL draft pick factory, but also losing players often before their junior seasons. I dont think a CHA team can compete with a top tier NCAA team.

ok what about the ccha.

michagan:

aaron ward

mike knuble

marty turco

mike cammaleri

mike komisarek

kevin porter

john madden

brendan morrison

jack johnson

mike van ryn

jed ortmeyer

david moss

michigan state:

ryan miller

justin abdelker

mike york

adam hall

anson carter

ryan kesler (osu)

need i say more. the ccha has produced the best players to come out of college.

[epstud74 24]

The CCHA maybe 10-15 years ago..You could say that, but the CCHA is extremely top heavy right now with Michigan garnering maybe 80% of the NHL talent in the league. I'm guessing in the last 5-10 years or so, the WCHA has had a stranglehold on talent going onto the NHL across the whole league. Hockey East is top heavy as well with BC clearly the dominant team in the East.

North Dakota-Drew Stafford, Jonathan Toews, Matt Greene, Jason Blake, Zach Parise, Travis Zajac, Mike Commodore, TJ Oshie, David Hale, Brandon Bochenski, Landon Wilson

Wisconsin-Dany Heatly, Chris Chelios, Steve Reinprecht, Brian Rafalski, Sean Hill, Tom Gilbert, Joe Pavelski, Ryan Suter, Dave Tanabe,

St. Cloud State-Matt Cullen, Mark Parrish, Jeff Finger, Bret Hedican, Tyler Arnason, Ryan Malone,

Denver-Paul Stasny, Matt Carle

Minnesota State- David Backes

UMD-Matt Niskanen,

Colorado College-Tom Priessing, Bret Sterling, Mark Stuart,

Minnesota-Blake Wheeler, Phil Kessel, Thomas Vanek, Jordan Leopold, Keith Ballard, Paul Martin, John Pohl, Kyle Okposo, Erik Johnson, Jeff Taffe, Wyatt Smith,

Lots of current draft picks still in college on all teams..This is just current NHL players..I didnt include guys like Brett Hull (UMD) who is retired or guys in the AHL etc.

Goalies like Cujo, Belfour and Richter played in the WCHA

This is pretty much an incomplete list..so..feel free to add to it.

[Jordan 13]

All the stats are here:

Wikipedia/NHL draft

As far as getting drafted the CHL kicks but over the NCAA. In the 2007 Draft, 87 players came from the OHL, WHL or QMJHL; 8 from the NCAA. 20 or so would appear to be the average for the NCAA over the years.

Another general comparison, the Peterborough Petes (OHL) have had 162 players drafted, while Michigan, the undisputed king of NCAA hockey has had 66 players drafted.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

The only problem with your argument is that most NHL-drafted NCAA players are drafted BEFORE they attend a NCAA university, whereas CHL kids play to get drafted. So, that would skew your numbers quite a bit.

In the first round of the 2007 Draft, you'll see two kids drafted from NCAA teams - White and O'Brien. However, vanRiemsdyk, Turris, McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Cole, Nash, Pacioretty, Smith and Petrecki all played NCAA after being drafted by their junior/NTDP programs.

[epstud74 24]

The only problem with your argument is that most NHL-drafted NCAA players are drafted BEFORE they attend a NCAA university, whereas CHL kids play to get drafted. So, that would skew your numbers quite a bit.

In the first round of the 2007 Draft, you'll see two kids drafted from NCAA teams - White and O'Brien. However, vanRiemsdyk, Turris, McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Cole, Nash, Pacioretty, Smith and Petrecki all played NCAA after being drafted by their junior/NTDP programs.

That has a lot to do with the age of the players involved.. I know the U of MN will have a player or two drafted (Jordan Schroeder) after starting college due to leaving HS a year early and other similar instances. Most of the WCHA drafted players spent time in HS or the USHL or even NAHL before going on to NCAA hockey. I saw VanRiemsdyk play a couple weeks ago. He's a pretty good player, I think he'd benefit by playing another season at UNH, but the season is still young. Are you referring to Patrick White and Jim O'Brien? O'Brien left the Gophers to play in the WHA I believe. I think the WHA/QMJHL/OHL etc are great leagues for players who would benefit from more ice time. O'Brien would not have gotten the ice time at the "U" like he could in the WHA. A lot of players are drafted after spending time in the CHL as well..I do believe the NCAA is a step up from the CHA, BUT it isnt a good fit for everyone. The CHL (Silvertips) worked out great for Peter Mueller, even though Gopher fans wanted him to stand by his committment to play at the "U." I can hardly fault him for his decision..

All the stats are here:

Wikipedia/NHL draft

As far as getting drafted the CHL kicks but over the NCAA. In the 2007 Draft, 87 players came from the OHL, WHL or QMJHL; 8 from the NCAA. 20 or so would appear to be the average for the NCAA over the years.

Another general comparison, the Peterborough Petes (OHL) have had 162 players drafted, while Michigan, the undisputed king of NCAA hockey has had 66 players drafted.

How is Michigan the "undisputed king" of NCAA hockey? North Dakota, Boston College or Minnesota may have something to say about that. Michigan has had a tough time with those three teams over the last few years.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Yes, both kids from Minnesota.

I answered his question straight up. When you look at that first round that year, going by his reasoning, only two players were from NCAA. It's a different system, like you said, kids who are going to NCAA programs either go through the USHL or NAHL, and the better ones are drafted while there all the while having committed to a NCAA program.

[jrhky36 1]

All the stats are here:

Wikipedia/NHL draft

As far as getting drafted the CHL kicks but over the NCAA. In the 2007 Draft, 87 players came from the OHL, WHL or QMJHL; 8 from the NCAA. 20 or so would appear to be the average for the NCAA over the years.

Another general comparison, the Peterborough Petes (OHL) have had 162 players drafted, while Michigan, the undisputed king of NCAA hockey has had 66 players drafted.

your number of players drafted who played at mich is WRONG. the right number is 127. so its closer than the info you gave.

http://www.mgoblue.com/ice-hockey/article.aspx?id=47934

[epstud74 24]

JR, I agree...Am I the only one that thinks the US is producing better players than ever before? The number of Americans being picked highly in the draft over the last few years is quite a change from 15-20 or even 10 years ago.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

jrhky - yes, that list is counting all of the players who have played for them who were drafted. The Wiki list was merely a count of when they were drafted while attending the school.

epstud - exactly right - that 07 Draft was a great count for US-born kids.

[epstud74 24]

We must be doing something right with our youth programs and USA hockey.

[jrhky36 1]

We must be doing something right with our youth programs and USA hockey.

i have to agree. usa hockey has come a long way since 1980. the american born players are just beinging to make a major inroads to the nhl. the NDTP is a huge part of that.

[epstud74 24]

I think it starts WAY before the NDTP, especially at the youth and community level. Different teaching methods, ideas and comittment to better youth programs..What works in one part of the country may not work in another part, and I think people realize that. I'm still wondering about the demise of HS hockey in Mass..Is it all prep school now?

[Jordan 13]

How is Michigan the "undisputed king" of NCAA hockey? North Dakota, Boston College or Minnesota may have something to say about that. Michigan has had a tough time with those three teams over the last few years.

In terms of the number of kids getting drafted-that's all I was referring to. Michigan had 66 players drafted while playing for them. Upon looking closer at the list, Minnesota had 2 more than Michigan (missed it), North Dakota had 39, Boston College had 36.

Further, I would suggest that the numbers are correct, beacause as JR pointed out, a lot of the kids who play NCAA who have been drafted by NHL teams infact are drafted before they go to the University. How can a university program take credit for a kid getting drafted before they attended the school ?

In terms of the absolute level of teams, NCAA squads are much older on average than are major junior teams. so they should be able to handle a junior team just on the "men playing against boys" factor.

Anyhow, drafted/smafted, a better measure of the development would be the number of players that actually play in the league. I don't have those numbers though. ;)