Complainaing about officials

[chippa13 1844]

The thing is, being a referee doesn't have to be a thankless job. If you do it right and do it well then you will get the odd "nice job, stripes" at the end of the game. Heck, you'll even get the random player apology once in a while.

[MTG35 0]

I could be wrong but I think the officials at lower levels suffer from the mistakes made at higher levels.

The players at lower levels watch professional sports and see all the "bad" calls and mistakes made by officals and they take that attitude and apply it to all officals. "All officals suck".

Another thing that doesn't help is that professional officials never have to answer for their mistakes to the public. If a coach makes a bad call he has to answer questions and often admit he/she was wrong in a press conference. Same thing for many players. Officials never have to answer to anyone in the public. We all make mistakes but I think nothing drives people more crazy then people who make plenty of mistakes never owning up to them or needing to answer for them. As it stands now officials have the ability to calls things on a player just because they don't like him. I know most don't and have more integrity than that but they can. If they had to answer up for the calls they make, then in public perception, that ability would be taken away or at least minimized.

Again it comes back to the perceived attitude that as an official I'm invincible and cannot be wrong or questioned and even if I'm wrong you can't say or do anything about it.

[furlanitalia 1]

Ahh, and those are what make it worth it! I do get the occasional apology, and get a decent number of "great game ref" at the beginning of the season. Actually was lucky enough to have a coach email the association about me, and not in a bad way!

[zebra_steve 11]

Since the perspective seems to have switched from competitive amateur hockey to adult hockey...

A few of my personal observations....

Most adult leagues around here are something like 20 minute running clock periods . penalties are 3 minutes running clock... fairly informal. Literally seems like pick up with someone to drop pucks for icings, offsides, and goals.

- some of the guys reffing the adult games are new officials trying to get more ice time and ramp up their experience level... it may be all they can do to get in position, and make a line call.... They mean well and I really struggle to keep these guys from developing bad\lazy habits.

- many of the guys that don't get the higher end amateur games or get fewer games in general. They have issues with penalty standard, positioning, skating ability, interpersonal relations with players and coaches, issues with schedulers and supervisors, etc. and they refuse to change their was no matter how many times they are shown the error of their ways.

- you may have one of our "game whores" that skate more games in a week than the high end guys do in a month. He's there to drop 3 pucks (one to start each period - more if he absolutely has to) and collect his cash.

It's sad to say, but from my own experience as a player in adult leagues ... they are probably considered the lowest end of the hierarchy of games and most guys are there to collect some easy cash for as little work as possible.

[furlanitalia 1]

It's sad to say, but from my own experience as a player in adult leagues ... they are probably considered the lowest end of the hierarchy of games and most guys are there to collect some easy cash for as little work as possible.

Yup, that about sums it up.

[cptjeff 0]

First of all,,,,, since some of you are saying "Refs don't know the rules"...... YOU SHOW ME WHERE IS SAYS THAT ANY PLAYER OR COACH IS ALLOWED TO YELL, BITCH, OR OTHERWISE PROTEST ANY CALL OR NON CALL IN ANY WAY!

And that's why you take shit. In the previous thread, were you not just talking about how some refs taking tests were scraping by with the skin of their teeth to maintain certification? Yes, coaches and players don't always know the rules down pat. But sometimes they do. And sometimes they know a rule better then the ref.

Captains are permitted to discuss rule interpretations with refs. They can't protest individual calls, but that's an ideal. When you're wrong on something, or there is a possibility of you being wrong, you should not expect people to let it go. It really boils down to the golden rule- treat players with respect instead of contempt, you get respect instead of contempt. The most respected refs where I play aren't the ones that get everything right- they're the ones who will politely explain calls if somebody starts bitching about one, regardless of if the rules technically allow that or not. When a ref starts handing out bench minors and throwing guys out, it's a sure way to earn a few pucks and bumps coming 'accidentally'.

As for coach and player anger..... whether you're justified or not, have you ever won an argument with a ref? Have you ever gotten the penalty pulled back off the sheet? Have you gotten a bench minor, misconduct or game misconduct for standing there yelling profanities at the ref while there are 8 year old kids in the building watching and listening (learning?)? What life lessons are you teaching these kids when you do this stuff...

Pulled off the sheet? No. But I have seen refs make makeup calls or give the team the benefit of the doubt on borderline calls. There's a reason coaches do that, it's to lobby for the next call. As for bench minors, usually by the time you've gotten to that level you have lost ANY respect the team might have for you. Also, "think of the children" is a pretty weak argument for trying to convince me. I don't fucking care. It's an emotional strawman and avoids any real issues.

Have you ever been at a rink just watching games with no personal interest and seen one of these coach\player\referee confrontations? What did you think? Was there any winner, or multiple losers?

Yup, those usually happen when a ref makes a lousy call and the ref refuses to communicate. Winners or losers? When a ref has his head up his ass and can't reasonably discuss things nobody wins. What I see the good refs doing is having conversations with players before a faceoff or something. Tends to go something like this, and this is one I've had on the way to the penalty box:

"Hey, what the hell was that call for?"

"You hit his glove on that stick check. That's a slash."

However, I've also seen conversations that start like that that wind up going something like this:

"What the hell was that call for?"

"Slash." (ref skates away)

"What the hell, that was stick on stick and I barely touched it!"

"It was, 2 minutes for unsportsmanlike"

(Unprintable language), bench gets involved, coach blows up....

The difference is that in one case the ref explains his call and treats the guy like a rational human being. In the other instance, he goes on a bit of a power trip when a borderline call is questioned. While the second guy is well within his rights to do so, he's still mishandling the situation. All too often I see the ref get incredibly defensive on calls or just refuse to talk to a coach or player altogether. Those tend to wind up going the second route.

It boils down to respect. You can get it two ways- earn it, or give it. But you're not entitled to it just because you wear a striped shirt. All you get from that is authority, which is nowhere near the same thing.

[furlanitalia 1]

Really cptjeff, all you're saying is that until the ref shows you respect you're not going to show him any. If a player blows up at me saying "what the hell was that call for" as opposed to just saying politely "what was the call?" I'm going to tell him it was a slash. He is not entitled to an explanation. As for bench minors, I've seen ref's explain things calmly to coaches and ask politely multiple times for them to keep their bench under control. If a player still feels like running his mouth he's going to be sat down. I'm not out there to be verbally abused and I'm sure as hell not going to take it.

And I've yet to have a collision with a player where he didn't get dropped. And if a player fires a puck at me you can guarantee he'll be getting a warning, and then tossed. There is no reason I should have to worry about my safety so some stuck up spoiled brat can think he can get away with anything.

While respect does go both ways, we are entitled to it from players and coaches, just like they are entitled to it from us. It isn't something that has to be earned every time we hit the ice, and it should be a given. Unfortunately for you, you seem to feel that a ref has to earn your respect before you'll show it to him.

[chippa13 1844]

While respect does go both ways, we are entitled to it from players and coaches, just like they are entitled to it from us. It isn't something that has to be earned every time we hit the ice, and it should be a given. Unfortunately for you, you seem to feel that a ref has to earn your respect before you'll show it to him.

Respect does have to be earned everytime you hit the ice and your performance and attitude should reflect that. That goes both ways, for refs and players. The only time a ref should feel entitled to respect is when he's seeing players that he has done a good job for in the past. Otherwise, the game starts with a clean slate.

[furlanitalia 1]

Respect does have to be earned everytime you hit the ice and your performance and attitude should reflect that. That goes both ways, for refs and players. The only time a ref should feel entitled to respect is when he's seeing players that he has done a good job for in the past. Otherwise, the game starts with a clean slate.

Yes, but a clean slate shouldn't be no respect until you've earned it, it should be respect until you've lost it. It's the same as the difference between innocent until proven guilty and guilty until proven innocent.

[Chadd 916]

It boils down to respect. You can get it two ways- earn it, or give it. But you're not entitled to it just because you wear a striped shirt. All you get from that is authority, which is nowhere near the same thing.

Actually, you do have to give the referee respect by default. You don't have to respect the person in the stripes, but you do have to respect the position of a referee. It doesn't matter if he is good, bad or an asshole, the position demands some level of respect. It's no different than a teacher or a cop, those positions (in their respective environments) give them a level of authority simply by filling the role. There are plenty of bad teachers, cops and referees out there, but you still have to abide by their authority in their environment.

Yes, but a clean slate shouldn't be no respect until you've earned it, it should be respect until you've lost it. It's the same as the difference between innocent until proven guilty and guilty until proven innocent.

Exactly

[AHF 1]

If you do it right and do it well then you will get the odd "nice job, stripes" at the end of the game. Heck, you'll even get the random player apology once in a while.

Heh. I was scorekeeping last night and overheard the opposite last night, as they were shaking hands.

The goof in question received a body contact penalty earlier in the game, and as he comes up to the ref, he has the gall to say "I still don't think that was a penalty."

Those are the idiots that take the fun out of the game.

All he was received was one minor penalty (a well deserved one, I might add) and he was childish enough to bitch about it after the game.

You got a penalty, suck it up princess.

[Hockeyman11385 1]

Well there were some NHL scouts in the stands that night and that call really hurt his chances of getting called up to the show.

I completely agree with all of the referees here. I was the head coach for a local high school team and my life was much easier once I realized that if I talk to the refs in a respectful way then they would explain every call to me. I may not have agreed with the explanation but I certainly appreciated it. The first thing I did/do is jump down from the bench to speak with the ref.

I also appreciate when the ref admits a mistake. I had a few admit they blew icing/offsides calls this year and I it helped to hear that they knew they made a mistake. I know these guys are human and are doing this for the love of the game, and not the little amount of money they receive for a game.

Basically it comes down to mutual respect. Respect referees and you will quickly realize that they are guys (and girls) that love the game just as much as you do and will gladly have a respectful conversation about everything that happens on the ice.

[zebra_steve 11]

Thank you! I love hearing from a coach that gets it....

To anyone that believes that you have any right to bitch or yell at a ref I challenge you to put the stripes on and see it from the other side.... I've played, I've coached, and I'm a ref.... It will give you a unique perspective.

[jarret_g 5]

Heh. I was scorekeeping last night and overheard the opposite last night, as they were shaking hands.

The goof in question received a body contact penalty earlier in the game, and as he comes up to the ref, he has the gall to say "I still don't think that was a penalty."

Those are the idiots that take the fun out of the game.

All he was received was one minor penalty (a well deserved one, I might add) and he was childish enough to bitch about it after the game.

You got a penalty, suck it up princess.

I actually don't mind when I ref and a player comes up after a period/game and says "I dont think that was a penalty on me/person on their team". As long as they approach me with respect, i'll give them my reasoning for calling a penalty. If they come and say "that was a f*cking joke call" then no, i'm not going to give you an explanation.

[Bravada 442 0]

As an official in the high school and college ranks of American football, I have the utmost respect for the officials of each and every beer league game I play it. I took the USAH test just so that I knew the rules so that if I disagreed with something, I could at least have a reasonable discussion with an official (although most adult league guys refuse to discuss them because they either think you are going to jump down their throat, or they flat out just don't know the rules.)

But, as far as I'm concerned, this is a small running tabs of the things that DRIVE ME CRAZY when playing with poor officials (and someone that has more experience on hockey officiating please correct me if I'm out of place on these, because like I said my principals come from football).

1) Positioning - You can't make a call if you can't see it. It drives me up a wall when a ref is 10 feet behind a blue line calling a close offsides, or he is taking his sweet old time in the zone and there is something close on the goal line and he is above the top of the faceoff circles. I wish some of these guys would realize that perception is half the battle. If you are presenting yourself well (shirt tucked in, proper black pants, helmet buckled, in good position, attempting to be in good position, hustle, etc...) you command more respect and appear to know the game better.

2) Consistency - If you make a call early in the game and show the guys that if you stick a guy in the skates and knock him down, or if you body a guy into the boards (in a no check league) that you are going to get a penalty, this will stop that kind of stuff later on. Then, once a team has seen you in two or three games, they know that stuff won't be let by, so they will play their game accordingly. Therefore, by officiating a good, clean game with the proper calls a couple of times, you have now made your life easier for the rest of the season. At least here, we tend to get the same officials, nothing is worse than them calling things completely different depending on whether or not their wife yelled at them that day.

I've always been taught when you officiate a game you love remember that it is fun. Forget all the other things, and just focus on what you are doing. You'll learn to enjoy it much more.

3) Communication - It never hurts to skate over to a bench before the game and say to the team "Hey guys, listen, this is how I'm going to call the game, this is what you can expect from me. IF you have a question, feel free to ask it in a respectful manner, and I will be glad to answer and explain at my earliest time. All I ask is just to be respected and I'll make sure we have as clean and good a game as we can tonight". Also, arguing with a player never works. Allow them to make their point, if they want to be aggressive, swear, etc.. just send them to the box and be done with it.

If you have a handle on these three things as an official, you can pretty much get through anything. Notice I purposely left out rules knowledge. Yes, obviously it is important, but if you are good at the 3 things at the top, you can buy a lot of respect from guys even if you don't know the rulebook inside and out.

[jarret_g 5]

I agree with all your points, minus communication. I don't tell coaches/players how i'm going to call a game because if i say something like "i'm calling everything in front of the net" and i don't see something, it gives them a reason to get on my back. I like your point about questions though.

I hate it when coaches are yelling from the bench when i'm in the middle of a line change procedure for me to go over. I just say "next whistle coach", sometimes they like that, sometimes they just go bananas. I find if i wait a while to go over it gives them time to calm down and gather their thoughts. Once i did that to a coach and when i went over to talk to him next whistle he couldn't remember why he wanted to talk to me, kind of a funny situation.

I disagree with your point that officials need the top three and rule knowledge comes. I think all officials need to know the rules. Not necessarilly inside and out, but if a situation arises, they should know how to deal with it. It was actually our branch RIC that said "i'll support you all the way, unless you messed up on your rules, there's no excuse for not knowing rules, we give you a rulebook. use it." Realistically, if an official messes up a call because they don't know the rules there's no coming back from it, they're dead in the water.

[Bravada 442 0]

I agree with all your points, minus communication. I don't tell coaches/players how i'm going to call a game because if i say something like "i'm calling everything in front of the net" and i don't see something, it gives them a reason to get on my back. I like your point about questions though.

I hate it when coaches are yelling from the bench when i'm in the middle of a line change procedure for me to go over. I just say "next whistle coach", sometimes they like that, sometimes they just go bananas. I find if i wait a while to go over it gives them time to calm down and gather their thoughts. Once i did that to a coach and when i went over to talk to him next whistle he couldn't remember why he wanted to talk to me, kind of a funny situation.

I disagree with your point that officials need the top three and rule knowledge comes. I think all officials need to know the rules. Not necessarilly inside and out, but if a situation arises, they should know how to deal with it. It was actually our branch RIC that said "i'll support you all the way, unless you messed up on your rules, there's no excuse for not knowing rules, we give you a rulebook. use it." Realistically, if an official messes up a call because they don't know the rules there's no coming back from it, they're dead in the water.

You need to re-read what I said.

1) I didn't say that by saying how you call the game is going to be "I'm calling everything in front of the net". It is "Ok guys, I want it clean. If I see a trip, I'll call it. If you guys have a question, just let me know. I'm going to call what I see is an infraction". Even the vaguest of explanations to a team can calm them and let them know you are going to do your best all night. Stepping on the ice and dropping the puck isn't going to do it.

2) You need to let them know, like I said above, from the beginning that you will get to them as quickly as you can and when it is safe and prudent to do so. You should never yell over to a coach "next whistle" or anything like that. Yelling at coaches, even if its a positive thing, can be misconstrued as negative so you're better off to just not do it. Speak to them as you want spoken to. Go over when you can, let the coach know again that you can only come over when time permits, and listen to his question and answer him (if he speaks to you properly).

3) I didn't say they don't need to know the rules. I said they don't need to know the rules inside and out. No official is going to know them inside and out the first time he takes the test. There are lots of rules which very minor variances or minor interpretations that the official may know if sitting in a classroom, but might not know in the heat of the moment on the ice. But if you are in position, hustling, and consist and fair all night, as an official you'll be able to get your way through it. Basically, what you said, about not knowing them inside and out but knowing how to get through it, is exactly what I said in my first post. I guess you didn't quite get it though.

Every official misses calls or misinterprets a rules. It's how you deal with it that makes the difference.

[ktang 34]

I coach and I ref too. One father of one of my players says that he likes to get on the refs (as a spectator) because it is "fun". His son is a pretty good player and a good guy, but his father is a real know-it-all douchebag. With the current recession and the stress that goes along with it, yelling at and abusing the on-ice officials is on the upswing here and is akin to kicking the cat in front of an appreciative set of spectators. It may be these people's highlight of their week / month / lives - so sad to see. They were fired by or are afraid of upsetting the boss in this economic environment, so this is a way for them to get back at an authority figure relatively safely.

Lots of good perspectives here, and it was good for me to see some new ideas. During the pre-game handshake, if a coach asks what I will be calling I just say that I will call what I see so that he can't nail me for it later, but during the game if a player or coach asks why I made certain calls I try to explain what I saw and why I applied certain penalties / calls.

Let me toss another log onto the fire: coaches work the refs because it works, as noted by some previously, and because it's an outlet for their frustration. When I see a team blow a sizable lead I almost expect their coach to blow up at the on-ice officials. It takes the pressure off the players and the focus away from the coach. When the game is close I also know that the coaches will try to work the calls. Questioning and working the calls usually works because on-ice officials are human, too, and pointing out minutiae wrecks the on-ice official's focus (similar to batters stepping out of the box in baseball to get the pitcher out of his zone).

The coaches will continue working the on-ice officials until they get the bench minor or get tossed (and suspended). So, to help out the next set of on-ice officials, the refs shouldn't refrain from giving the appropriate bench minor - unsportsmanlike or game misconduct to the coaches, and the hockey association has to uphold the suspensions in order to provide the appropriate feedback for changing behaviour.

[zebra_steve 11]

I coach and I ref too. One father of one of my players says that he likes to get on the refs (as a spectator) because it is "fun". His son is a pretty good player and a good guy, but his father is a real know-it-all douchebag. With the current recession and the stress that goes along with it, yelling at and abusing the on-ice officials is on the upswing here and is akin to kicking the cat in front of an appreciative set of spectators. It may be these people's highlight of their week / month / lives - so sad to see. They were fired by or are afraid of upsetting the boss in this economic environment, so this is a way for them to get back at an authority figure relatively safely.

KTANG...

Here's the other side of this one to consider.... I have been unemployed since September of last year. I was in a high stress position while I was employed.... maybe skating that game was my stress relief. Maybe that couple dollars I get from skating is all the income I can bring in at the moment. Maybe I'm worried about making the mortgage or car payments. Maybe I wondering where our next batch of groceries will come from. And now I gottta deal with some jagoff that thinks it's fun to yell at the zebras.... That poor excuse for a role model needs to take a step back and consider that just maybe he's poking the stick and the wrong animal.... There are human beings with feelings and emotions out there in those striped shirts he's yelling at.

Guess he doesn't realize that the person receiving his abuse will have one of three reactions. He'll laugh and ignore it, he'll respond\retaliate directly (yell back, eject him from the building, or worse if he really loses it), or he'll transfer the reaction to the abuse elsewhere.... say to the team said jagoff is cheering for..... Not saying it's right, but it does happen. It is really hard to take the high road and not retaliate.....

[chippa13 1844]

Thank you! I love hearing from a coach that gets it....

To anyone that believes that you have any right to bitch or yell at a ref I challenge you to put the stripes on and see it from the other side.... I've played, I've coached, and I'm a ref.... It will give you a unique perspective.

I've done it and you know what, that made me less tolerant of poor officials than before. If you're not in position to make calls, lack consistency, and are not making the correct calls then you give up the right not to get a little honest feedback.

[Chadd 916]

I've done it and you know what, that made me less tolerant of poor officials than before. If you're not in position to make calls, lack consistency, and are not making the correct calls then you give up the right not to get a little honest feedback.

I'm much less tolerant of guys that don't put in any effort because I know what they should be doing. I am more forgiving about a missed call at the line in traffic or a missed penalty away from the puck though as I know there are times you just can't see things due to no fault of your own.

[chippa13 1844]

If a guy is in the right spot and gets blocked out then that is fine, it happens, but the guy who blows a goal call because he's still at the blue line or makes a tight offsides call from the other blue line, well, those guys are going to hear it.

[Chadd 916]

I don't blast them, but I will remind them what they are supposed to do.

[chippa13 1844]

The first one or two will get the, "Come on, you can't make that call from back there" but when it becomes a trend and the frustration starts to build, well, then the language might get a little more colorful.

[zebra_steve 11]

If a guy is in the right spot and gets blocked out then that is fine, it happens, but the guy who blows a goal call because he's still at the blue line or makes a tight offsides call from the other blue line, well, those guys are going to hear it.

So what you guys are saying is that AS AN OFFICIAL you feel that it's ok to give it to a fellow official from the bench 'cuz you "know he's not doing his job"?

There is a way to do it, and there are channels to report this stuff through.... the reports of "poor performance" generally tend to hold more weight if they come from a fellow official.