OPS Technology

[DarkStar50 679]

The EQ50 OPS thread took a different but interesting turn in the discussion of OPS technology. There were a lot of valid points being talked about. I would like to keep this discussion open here in this thread.

The one point I'll make is that over the years I have been to a lot of dealer events where the companies brought in their OPS designers to explain and demonstrate their new technology. It is in these meetings where I see the direction and application of their ideas. The companies are pushing each other to develop new technologies. Not everyone here is going to like what they find at the LHS as new OPS. However, if the companies did not work to try new ideas we might still be stuck with the Bauer Tri-Flex! And we don't want to see that OPS log ever again. So sticking with same old, same old is never going to work in the long run. The OPS technology will always be pushed further.

I also would be interested in the thoughts from guys at MSH Summer Jam and how they felt listening to Bauer, Easton, and RBK OPS designers explain their product. Did you learn anything and did it translate to when you demo'ed the OPS on ice? Thoughts?

[Jarick 5]

I'd absolutely love to try a Tri-Flex.

[hyprlte 0]

The only rep I really spent time talking to about sticks was the Easton rep. He explained to me how the new weighting system has made the synergy line that much better and to give it a shot. When I used the demo for about 20 min I was extremely disappointed. Personally once the Easton Synergy SE's stopped in production, I have used Warrior Dolomite's ever since.

The Warrior Dolomite has been a great stick for me. Its basically the same stick just with different graphics. Chances are once I am done reviewing the EQ50 I will go back to the Dolos for one simple reason. It works. Just because new technology comes out and is available doesn't mean that it's necessarily better.

[Chadd 916]

The Tri Flex Gold was was a fantastic shaft. I think I still have one in the closet.

As for the original question, knowing what sticks have an artificially lowered kickpoint helps me eliminate sticks from consideration as I prefer the more "traditional" OPS and tapered shafts. I like the idea of a company trying new concepts. What I don't like is replacing an excellent product with something different simply because it is time to change the line this year. Especially when the new product doesn't perform as well as the old one. Repaint, rename and re label until your heart is content, but don't replace until you actually have something better to offer.

[RussianDangler15 0]

You see but then people complain when a company doesn't come out with some revolutanary technology that is often BS. I agree if it's not broken don't change it but unfortunately there will always be people who will look for anything to complain about. Having said that I feel that ops making is getting more and more gimmicky with every new release.

[Chadd 916]

You see but then people complain when a company doesn't come out with some revolutanary technology that is often BS. I agree if it's not broken don't change it but unfortunately there will always be people who will look for anything to complain about. Having said that I feel that ops making is getting more and more gimmicky with every new release.

Hence the "rename, repaint and re label" comment. As long as there is a "new" product available, those people don't complain. Leaving the product exactly the same for a long period of time would not go over well with certain people, but doing those thing will make it appear as a new product to those people.

[Havok19 0]

The question i am asking is why change something that worked.Like the 05 stealth god that stick was the best ops i ever had and it went downhill from there IMO.I tend to agree with Hyprlte on the warriors sticks,they did not change a lot of things on there stick and they are selling pretty good in my area and its been the same since the inno days.

[RussianDangler15 0]

Chadd I understand your point but I think basically what I'm trying to say is no company will be able to keep everyone happy. They'll make sticks with gimmicks and people will complain about that. Whether or not it works people will hate it. Then there are companys that keep a good concept for a relativley good time and people hate that. Well now I'm just rambeling but you get the basic idea.

[JoeyJ0506 192]

I'd like to see the major companies open up their pro-players' blade pattern databases for the general populace to utilize. Maybe in the days before the internet it was not feasible, but using the internet as a tool, it would not be overly difficult to build and maintain such a database for use in some sort of, "custom," program. For a company to basically allow people to scroll through a couple pages of patterns and molds that already exist, then allow them to fuse that pattern into a stock shaft with stock flex options does not seem like it would be that big of a chore. I would fully expect them to charge a premium for such a service, but I do not think it is unreasonable. It also would allow them to have an idea of just how popular a pro-pattern is and allows for future considerations in making it a, "stock," option at the LHS... just a thought. Using resources that already exist to open a new revenue stream... seems like a no-brainer to me.

[rachael7 1]

I'd like to see the major companies open up their pro-players' blade pattern databases for the general populace to utilize. Maybe in the days before the internet it was not feasible, but using the internet as a tool, it would not be overly difficult to build and maintain such a database for use in some sort of, "custom," program. For a company to basically allow people to scroll through a couple pages of patterns and molds that already exist, then allow them to fuse that pattern into a stock shaft with stock flex options does not seem like it would be that big of a chore. I would fully expect them to charge a premium for such a service, but I do not think it is unreasonable. It also would allow them to have an idea of just how popular a pro-pattern is and allows for future considerations in making it a, "stock," option at the LHS... just a thought. Using resources that already exist to open a new revenue stream... seems like a no-brainer to me.

+1 With a reasonable up-charge, that should definitely be feasible and an excellent service. As part of that custom program, they could make the warranty optional as well and reduce the cost if you chose to waive it.

[Scotty 8]

As for pleasing people, I think that the gimmicks and "new" technology please the kids, teens, and people that really don't know much about the equipment. Considering those groups, that's a lot of people. Then there's those like the people on this site that understand the materials, technology, and science behind sticks and hate to see the older, but truly useful equipment go out the door in favor of the newest stick with vents in it, Spyne energy transfer technology, or other marketing ploys. But let's face it: Marketing works, especially when you think about those people who don't know any better.

Some things are gimmicks, but others are an attempt at a decent idea. Sometimes people just don't know how to differentiate the two. Let's take Easton for example.

Focus flex portion of Z-Carbon blades - Crap. C'mon. The blade does not and will not flex there. If it did, it would be too weak to maintain structural stability and break.

EQ50 weighted blade/plug system - Ehh, possibly hype, but it's a decent idea upon the concept of preference and customization.

At least they're working on it.

I'd like to see the major companies open up their pro-players' blade pattern databases for the general populace to utilize. Maybe in the days before the internet it was not feasible, but using the internet as a tool, it would not be overly difficult to build and maintain such a database for use in some sort of, "custom," program. For a company to basically allow people to scroll through a couple pages of patterns and molds that already exist, then allow them to fuse that pattern into a stock shaft with stock flex options does not seem like it would be that big of a chore. I would fully expect them to charge a premium for such a service, but I do not think it is unreasonable. It also would allow them to have an idea of just how popular a pro-pattern is and allows for future considerations in making it a, "stock," option at the LHS... just a thought. Using resources that already exist to open a new revenue stream... seems like a no-brainer to me.

Decent idea on paper, but can you imagine being that company's customer service?

"Hey, I need you to tell me about curve XXXX"

"Sir, this is Warrior/Easton/Bauer Customer Service. Unfortunately, we do not handle information like that..."

"Well can you send me pictures? Is it open or closed? Is the lie a 5? Or a 5.5? Or is it like Warrior's where the lie is actually higher? Is the toe rounded? Is it good for toe drags? Will this blade give me a rocket slapshot? Will I still be able to do backhands..."

I think you see where it would go.

[chippa13 1844]

I'd like to see the major companies open up their pro-players' blade pattern databases for the general populace to utilize. Maybe in the days before the internet it was not feasible, but using the internet as a tool, it would not be overly difficult to build and maintain such a database for use in some sort of, "custom," program. For a company to basically allow people to scroll through a couple pages of patterns and molds that already exist, then allow them to fuse that pattern into a stock shaft with stock flex options does not seem like it would be that big of a chore. I would fully expect them to charge a premium for such a service, but I do not think it is unreasonable. It also would allow them to have an idea of just how popular a pro-pattern is and allows for future considerations in making it a, "stock," option at the LHS... just a thought. Using resources that already exist to open a new revenue stream... seems like a no-brainer to me.

I see this as being a production nightmare for a company. Sure, maintaining and utilizing huge numbers of molds for pros isn't so bad when they're making a dozen or two at a time but it would be a huge headache making one or two at a time. It would slow production to a crawl.

[JoeyJ0506 192]

I see this as being a production nightmare for a company. Sure, maintaining and utilizing huge numbers of molds for pros isn't so bad when they're making a dozen or two at a time but it would be a huge headache making one or two at a time. It would slow production to a crawl.

I can see how that would be a problem, the simple fix is to put a minimum order amount on it. say 6 or 12 pieces. It may not appeal to a wide scope of people, but it's a luxury just like custom gloves, skates, uniforms, goal-equipment, etc. You do not have to have them, but there are people that will pay for it. And people will pay for those 6-12 sticks plus the up-charge that comes along with getting a custom stick. There has to be a way that it could be done that would make sense for the companies doing the production (perhaps not, I'm just a big dreamer) I know it probably will not happen, but it's just my idea for taking technology that already exists and looking for a way to make money off of it. But, as you have pointed out, there are bugs in the system that would have to be worked out.

[Chadd 916]

I'd like to see the major companies open up their pro-players' blade pattern databases for the general populace to utilize. Maybe in the days before the internet it was not feasible, but using the internet as a tool, it would not be overly difficult to build and maintain such a database for use in some sort of, "custom," program. For a company to basically allow people to scroll through a couple pages of patterns and molds that already exist, then allow them to fuse that pattern into a stock shaft with stock flex options does not seem like it would be that big of a chore. I would fully expect them to charge a premium for such a service, but I do not think it is unreasonable. It also would allow them to have an idea of just how popular a pro-pattern is and allows for future considerations in making it a, "stock," option at the LHS... just a thought. Using resources that already exist to open a new revenue stream... seems like a no-brainer to me.

If it seems like a "no-brainer" and not "that big of a chore", there's nothing we can do to explain it.

[NextBobbyOrr 0]

I'd love to try a tri-flex and an XN10 too. But you guys have totally made me realize something. Whenever, I look to buy new sticks, I'd usually look at the newest technology, X:60, S19, etc. But in the past few weeks, I've been pondering whether I should go try the newest Easton or Warrior stuff. I'm trying to have the newest tech, when I see now, I don't need it. I've got 2 One 95's from recall, I love them and they work for me. There's no problems, They're reliable and consistent. Obviously, I'll be buying new stuff in the future, but now I get that I don't need to go looking for what's "newest" or revolutionary. Wow..I feel pretty good now. And I agree with Hyprite on the Warrior thing. I think the biggest changes in Warrior have been introducing a spyne and for the dolomites, I think they just changed the blade material on the DD.

[Chadd 916]

Obviously, I'll be buying new stuff in the future, but now I get that I don't need to go looking for what's "newest" or revolutionary. Wow..I feel pretty good now.

There's nothing wrong with newer technology, you just need to make sure it's something that is going to work for you. Since you like the one95, you're probably not going to be happy with sticks that have lowered kickpoints.

[JoeyJ0506 192]

If it seems like a "no-brainer" and not "that big of a chore", there's nothing we can do to explain it.

I may just have been at work too long, but I'm a bit confused by your answer. I can accept that it could become, "a production nightmare," but to me with the correct technology and forethought it seems to be something that could be feasible.

I admit I have nowhere near the industry knowledge, nor marketing, nor production, nor business knowledge that you do, it's not my cup of tea. But if you would like to expand on reasons why it is not feasible, I would appreciate it as I would like to learn.

[chippa13 1844]

The other side of it is that no consumer would make use of it. If, like you said, a company made a 12 stick minimum then no regular consumer would make use of the program. The program would be cost prohibitive. Not a lot of folks have the money to drop $2,400 on a dozen sticks, 11 of which will not be covered under warranty.

[DarkStar50 679]

The one flaw I do see today is most of the focus goes first to the production process / speed and cost of production, only then the companies look at designing a better quality product. So I don’t think we’ll see anything new or revolutionary for a while, the only direction left to explore is bio-mechanics and actual biomechanical devises built into an OPS, but that’s a whole new ball game with weight and balance issues.

A very astute observation.

[JoeyJ0506 192]

The other side of it is that no consumer would make use of it. If, like you said, a company made a 12 stick minimum then no regular consumer would make use of the program. The program would be cost prohibitive. Not a lot of folks have the money to drop $2,400 on a dozen sticks, 11 of which will not be covered under warranty.

You guys are of course, correct. Like I said, I dream big, and obviously I did not think this out as well as I should have. But, I got excited at the prospect of discussing my master plan. My apologies.

[Chadd 916]

I may just have been at work too long, but I'm a bit confused by your answer. I can accept that it could become, "a production nightmare," but to me with the correct technology and forethought it seems to be something that could be feasible.

I admit I have nowhere near the industry knowledge, nor marketing, nor production, nor business knowledge that you do, it's not my cup of tea. But if you would like to expand on reasons why it is not feasible, I would appreciate it as I would like to learn.

1. Customer service nightmare. Do you want pattern A,B,C,D,E,F or G from that player? Many players change their curve and the one you got might have been rejected because it was "wrong"

2. It will eat into production runs, making stock sticks more expensive. You gain economy by producing larger batches, especially if you're shipping from China.

3. Making sticks on demand with an unlimited number of potential combinations would be a nightmare to manage.

4. Manufacturers have been known to make mistakes on pro orders, so it's pretty likely that they will make some mistakes on retail orders as well. That takes us back to #1

5. Booking orders would take a hit as dealers would have to hold back some cash in reserve to handle custom orders and they would certainly reduce the number of sticks that they stock so they don't have "dead" merchandise on the shelf when it is discontinued.

I think the closest you will see from a major manufacturer is more of the mybauer type programs. TPS looked into doing custom OPS when they first got into them. In fact, the back page of the catalog that featured the original Response promised that customs would be available the following year. I would be happy with high end tapered shaft and the ability to choose from a larger variety of blades. Much less cost to the manufacturers, dealers and gives me as many options as possible.

[JoeyJ0506 192]

I think the closest you will see from a major manufacturer is more of the mybauer type programs. TPS looked into doing custom OPS when they first got into them. In fact, the back page of the catalog that featured the original Response promised that customs would be available the following year. I would be happy with high end tapered shaft and the ability to choose from a larger variety of blades. Much less cost to the manufacturers, dealers and gives me as many options as possible.

Thank you, the entire post helped to clear up my questions. Much appreciated Chadd.

[hyprlte 0]

Didn't MIA have a custom stick program years ago???? Correct me if im wrong but I didn't think that did too well

[kenneth 5]

Didn't MIA have a custom stick program years ago???? Correct me if im wrong but I didn't think that did too well

Well the NBH ID program is pretty close to custom as you can get and they offered quite a number of curves that weren't available retail wise. Now I have no idea if it was profitable.

[NextBobbyOrr 0]

There's nothing wrong with newer technology, you just need to make sure it's something that is going to work for you. Since you like the one95, you're probably not going to be happy with sticks that have lowered kickpoints.

Yeah, I think that's kinda why I didn't like the XXXX or XXX much when I tried my friends. And this is just a suggestion for the people reading this thread. Check out the book "The Stick". I forget who it's buy, but I was reading it a while ago and it showed the growth and development of sticks, also what pros think of them.

Well the NBH ID program is pretty close to custom as you can get and they offered quite a number of curves that weren't available retail wise. Now I have no idea if it was profitable.

I think(keyword) that Sherwood did one..was it with the RM19 or something. Because one of my instructors at a camp had 3 custom RM19's. Dunno for sure.