New York Rangers 2011/2012 discussion.

[mug25 2]

They also said that in 1991, when they won the President's Trophy, then lost in 6 in the second round.

Chadd is looking at the situation as an impartial outsider. YOU are looking at the situation as a Rangers fanboy, with blue colored glasses. Maybe, just maybe, your fanaticism is slightly skewing your view of the facts?

1991 was an entirely different team than 1994. You can spew all of the condescending "fanboy" comments you want at me but that doesn't change the simple fact that the Rangers are on fire and are handling everything that's been thrown at them this season thus far.

1. Starting season in Europe? No big deal.

2. MSG under renovation forcing a road schedule after the Europe trip? NBD.

3. Pressure of the HBO Cameras on them 24/7? NBD.

4. Winter Classic? NBD.

5. Beat top teams in both Conferences? NBD.

6. Beat the defending Stanley Cup Champions and the reigning President's Trophy Winners? NBD.

You can say I'm a fanboy for being excited that my team is kicking ass all you want but that's ok because I'll be the first to admit I bleed blue — do I have common sense when it comes to my team's chances? Yes. Am I optimistic about their chances due to them having their best season since 1994? Hell yes I am!

Many "experts" in the league predicted the Rangers wouldn't even make the playoffs this year.

- Rangers Fanboy.

[IniNew 51]

Chappie, it's not fair to assume Torts doesn't have an effect on players decisions to report an injury or ask for a diagnosis. If you have in the back of your mind that your ice time is going to be unfairly constricted because you asked the trainer to look at something, you must certainly will hold back.

[Chappie 0]

Chappie, it's not fair to assume Torts doesn't have an effect on players decisions to report an injury or ask for a diagnosis. If you have in the back of your mind that your ice time is going to be unfairly constricted because you asked the trainer to look at something, you must certainly will hold back.

Athletes aren't dumb machines when it comes to their bodies, and torts was expressing his opinion. One that many coaches share, too. It's unfair to assume that, because torts has that opinion, he forces it down his players throats.

[Law Goalie 147]

Torts doesn't force them not to be treated. I'm assuming you are referring to his comments from 24/7, but that was just his opinion. If he was to actually (have the authority) to act on that opinion, Wolski wouldn't have missed most of the season, Eminger wouldn't have been out for his shoulder, etc. Professional teams do not yield their entire training staff to their coach, if a player is diagnosed with an injury, it's up to the player/trainers to make the decision, Tort's isn't special and doesn't control this sort of thing. He said himself he doesn't talk to the players when they can't play, just waits for them or the trainer to give him the okay and takes it from there.

I'm also not sure what your point is about "extremely capable athletes." The difference between that and being well conditioned is only semantics.

Semantics is meaning: that's a difference.

Being well-conditioned implies a continuing optimal physical state; being capable athletes implies that they are prepared to perform, but leaves room for their ongoing condition to be sub-optimal, which is exactly what I intended.

Of course he doesn't insist that Wolski and Eminger should play with major injuries; on the other hand, these are Wolski and Eminger we're talking about, not Callaghan and Staal. You don't think cutting off contact with them isn't more than a little Draconian?

I'm not just referring to 24/7, but to his other comments over the years. He clearly sees himself as above those sort of concerns; yes, he'll delegate, but only as part of his pervasive dismissal of those issues as not his concern.

He's not alone in this, either.

[Chappie 0]

Semantics is meaning: that's a difference.

Being well-conditioned implies a continuing optimal physical state; being capable athletes implies that they are prepared to perform, but leaves room for their ongoing condition to be sub-optimal, which is exactly what I intended.

I disagree.

For one, that's the same for every athlete who plays a sport. Athletics takes its tole on the body, either slowly over time for those who are recreational, or shortly over a season for those who compete at a high level. No healthy is going to finish a season optimally, everyone gets injuries, especially in contact sports. Some are severe, some aren't, but everyone get's hurt.

For another, conditioning and relative health are two completely different things. I can be conditioned to run a marathon, but have a bad gimpy knee. It doesn't mean that my body still can't do it, and isn't still built around that purpose. Being well conditioned simply means that you have worked your body into a state that it can perform in the environment you are applying it to. These guys are and have been conditioned to play a hard style of hockey. They have built their entire workout routine, some down to eating habits, around that, and have conditioned their mind for it as well. The use of the word conditioning here is taking the psychological definition (To cause an organism to respond in a specific manner to a conditioned stimulus in the absence of an unconditioned stimulus) and applying it to the way they play.

Of course he doesn't insist that Wolski and Eminger should play with major injuries; on the other hand, these are Wolski and Eminger we're talking about, not Callaghan and Staal. You don't think cutting off contact with them isn't more than a little Draconian?

Eminger, before getting injured, was in the second pairing and playing 20-25 minutes a game. He was a big part of our defense and was stepping in when others were hurt (Sauer and Staal). Wolski too was hurt when we were struggling offensively and it was needed. Torts made a comment during that time stating something to the effect of "I can't get him out of the trainers table." But he didn't force him to play. He also never forced Staal to play, nor has he forced Sauer. I think the idea of John as Draconian is way over-skewed. He's not unlike most coaches in the league, they want their players playing. Doug Collins says it pretty well "There's a difference between playing hurt and injured." Injured players don't play, every player hurts. He should know, he played on terrible knees.

I'm not just referring to 24/7, but to his other comments over the years. He clearly sees himself as above those sort of concerns; yes, he'll delegate, but only as part of his pervasive dismissal of those issues as not his concern.

He's not alone in this, either.

I don't know what the first part here means, but you're right in that he's not alone. I don't think it's a big deal, either, organizations of today aren't going to let their coaches dictate a players injury.

[Chadd 916]

I don't think it's a big deal, either, organizations of today aren't going to let their coaches dictate a players injury.

replace organizations with agents and you could make a case for your argument. Most players are seen as a replaceable commodity to teams.

[Chappie 0]

replace organizations with agents and you could make a case for your argument. Most players are seen as a replaceable commodity to teams.

You're right, I was being pretty basic, but ultimately yeah the agent is the reason players are protected, as well as given an individualistic concept that makes them think about more than just the team.

[MLSman 22]

Chadd is 100% correct. Players are commodities when the cost of doing business is as high as it is for the NHL. A NHL organization from a business perspective has only one objective - profit.

I would add that modern sports medicine and education add an element to the equation that was mostly ignored in hockey's past. The role of the team physician is a major influence on the dynamics of the roster, and 24/7 has done a good job of showing that. Torts has always been a polarizing coach...but you can see that the physician has more power than he does to determine a player's readiness for game play, which has only recently changed in the last few years. You may have also noticed Lav's frustration over the string of injuries that were plaguing the Flyers in the 24/7 episodes...but he tends to be less vocal about things beyond his control. We could dedicate an entire thread on this subject. The role of sports medicine has had a significant impact on the game in only the last few years.

[mug25 2]

So heres to hoping the Rangers DONT trade for Rick Nash...

[Chappie 0]

Yeah I'm not that interested. If you can get around trading Kreider and fit JT Miller and/or McIlrath in the deal instead I'd be more interested, but Kreider/Fasth are untouchable save for a complete player like Ryan or better.

[mug25 2]

Yeah I'm not that interested. If you can get around trading Kreider and fit JT Miller and/or McIlrath in the deal instead I'd be more interested, but Kreider/Fasth are untouchable save for a complete player like Ryan or better.

I just dont think we should mess with the chemistry the team has right now. The only player part of the "core" I'd consider trading right now is Anisimov.

[Chappie 0]

Completely disagree. The guy who's worth trading is Dubinsky. He isn't worth his contract and has way too little hockey sense in the offensive zone causing him to make poor decisions with the puck there. I can literally write a book on some of the things Dubi does that just are so counter-intuitive to being a consistent point producer, and it's all the more frustrating because he has the physical tools, just not the head.

This team has one of the strongest rooms in the game, losing one cog wont kill them, especially if they add someone else who is a good team guy. You can't be afraid to get better, that's not the right attitude.

Anisimov, while streaky, is too skilled to give up on, especially when he's 23 and only costing you a little over a miller a year and is one of two guys to really work with Gaborik. That first line is the only one you really don't want to mess with because it's the only line that's been consistent all year, save for a 10 game stretch. You don't mess with that kind of success, especially when it involves your top goal scorer.

[mug25 2]

Completely disagree. The guy who's worth trading is Dubinsky. He isn't worth his contract and has way too little hockey sense in the offensive zone causing him to make poor decisions with the puck there. I can literally write a book on some of the things Dubi does that just are so counter-intuitive to being a consistent point producer, and it's all the more frustrating because he has the physical tools, just not the head.

This team has one of the strongest rooms in the game, losing one cog wont kill them, especially if they add someone else who is a good team guy. You can't be afraid to get better, that's not the right attitude.

Anisimov, while streaky, is too skilled to give up on, especially when he's 23 and only costing you a little over a miller a year and is one of two guys to really work with Gaborik. That first line is the only one you really don't want to mess with because it's the only line that's been consistent all year, save for a 10 game stretch. You don't mess with that kind of success, especially when it involves your top goal scorer.

While I agree with you on Dubinsky, I'll have to say this about Anisimov...all season he's been up and down from the 1st to 4th line. He hasn't been even the least bit consistent and I think it's mentally. He even admitted it. He flat out said he's been "afraid of the puck". I think it all started with the "Celebration Incident" in Tampa Bay. Only now is he getting his confidence back.

The problem with the Nash trade isn't that CBJ wants Dubinsky. It's that they want Dubinsky, Kreider (who was a 1st Round Pick), 2012's 1st Round Pick + JT Miller/Stepan/McDonagh

[Chappie 0]

Anisimov had a 10 game bad stretch, and like 5 in the beginning of the season, otherwise he has played on that first line. I agree with you though, he lost his assertiveness after the TBL incident.

I'm not saying that the Nash trade has to be made, because honestly I think that that is an unrealistic expectation for a guy who only scores goals and gets paid more than the current goal scorer on this team who is much better at it. My only point is that we can't be complacent because of being afraid to trade a Sauer (though that wont happen with him still not being able to get on the ice) or Dubinsky.

[MattyBoy 1]

Anisimov had a 10 game bad stretch, and like 5 in the beginning of the season, otherwise he has played on that first line. I agree with you though, he lost his assertiveness after the TBL incident.

I'm not saying that the Nash trade has to be made, because honestly I think that that is an unrealistic expectation for a guy who only scores goals and gets paid more than the current goal scorer on this team who is much better at it. My only point is that we can't be complacent because of being afraid to trade a Sauer (though that wont happen with him still not being able to get on the ice) or Dubinsky.

Anisimov went 18 games without a point

[mug25 2]

Anisimov went 18 games without a point

That was indeed tough to watch. He was invisible. What's even more annoying is that Gaborik has slowed down :/

[Chappie 0]

Anisimov went 18 games without a point

8 of those games though that entire first line was just terrible. Gaborik and Stepan came out of it but AA didn't and that's when John demoted him for a while.

[mug25 2]

8 of those games though that entire first line was just terrible. Gaborik and Stepan came out of it but AA didn't and that's when John demoted him for a while.

I'm curious to see how Kreider-Stepan-Gaborik would work out. With the way Stepan passes as it is, I can imagine the production that line would generate.

[Chappie 0]

Stepan isn't fast enough imo, nor does he skate well enough. That's his one glaring deficiency, and it's why I think Hagelin didn't work well when he was up there I think. It's okay when you can mix the line up with Gaborik on one side, who has speed and skill, and Anisimov on the other who has size and skill. It balances out the line.

I really want to see Kreider play with Richards and Callahan. It'd be similar to what we do with the first line, but waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more physical. It'd also get Richards going too.

[mug25 2]

Stepan isn't fast enough imo, nor does he skate well enough. That's his one glaring deficiency, and it's why I think Hagelin didn't work well when he was up there I think. It's okay when you can mix the line up with Gaborik on one side, who has speed and skill, and Anisimov on the other who has size and skill. It balances out the line.

I really want to see Kreider play with Richards and Callahan. It'd be similar to what we do with the first line, but waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more physical. It'd also get Richards going too.

True about Stepan being on the slower side but he makes up for it with seemingly always being in the right place. His offensive awareness is through the roof — hell, even his defensive awareness has shown on the PK . He need to shoot more and win more faceoffs. I'm sure with more work he can become a legit #1 Center.

[Chappie 0]

True about Stepan being on the slower side but he makes up for it with seemingly always being in the right place. His offensive awareness is through the roof — hell, even his defensive awareness has shown on the PK . He need to shoot more and win more faceoffs. I'm sure with more work he can become a legit #1 Center.

I agree, but right now I don't think he would be able to keep up. Stepan is probably the smartest guy we have in terms of hockey IQ. The guy does everything with a purpose and can pull plays out of his ass like it's no big deal. I think that with both Gaborik and another speedy winger on his other side though, he loses that ability a bit to anticipate everything and as a result he loses some of his ability to make plays happen.

I'd also like to keep our speed broken up in the lineup too. Having Gaborik on the first, Kreider on the second and Hagelin on the third gives us a guy on each line who can take the puck and just run with it if he gets into a one on one situation with a defender in the NZ. That sort of speed up and down your offense is just dangerous to no end and makes defenders have to second guess anything they do, especially since all three have soft hands and good heads.

[mug25 2]

I agree, but right now I don't think he would be able to keep up. Stepan is probably the smartest guy we have in terms of hockey IQ. The guy does everything with a purpose and can pull plays out of his ass like it's no big deal. I think that with both Gaborik and another speedy winger on his other side though, he loses that ability a bit to anticipate everything and as a result he loses some of his ability to make plays happen.

I'd also like to keep our speed broken up in the lineup too. Having Gaborik on the first, Kreider on the second and Hagelin on the third gives us a guy on each line who can take the puck and just run with it if he gets into a one on one situation with a defender in the NZ. That sort of speed up and down your offense is just dangerous to no end and makes defenders have to second guess anything they do, especially since all three have soft hands and good heads.

this x100!

Who do you think would pair with Steps+Gaby other than Anisimov? I always felt that Dubinsky would work well in that LW slot playing with them since he's a workhorse in the corners and neutral zone.

Speaking of Hagelin, I'm surprised Torts gave him only 44 sec. of PP time last night. On the other hand, I was HAPPY to see he stopped putting Boyle out there. I like the guy and know he's a fan favorite but the more I watch him play this year, the more I realize that last year was a total fluke and that he's pretty much a giant vag on skates.

[Chappie 0]

I think Boyle has scoring ability, but yeah he isn't nearly physical enough for his size, at least not this year. He could be sooooo much more, especially since the guy isn't dumb on the ice by any means, and since working on his skating has become a really solid two way player who can actually get back on a play that is flipped.

Dubinsky has similar issues, but I just don't think the guy has the brains. I mean, I could tell you what he's going to do before he does it every time when he's in the offensive zone. If he gets the puck entering the zone through the NZ, he'll either cut through the middle if he's coming on the off wing and flank to the outside and either A. force a shot or B. carry the puck around the net and try to dump it to the defenseman/back around. If he gets it on his wing, he'll carry it along the boards, cut to the middle, then back off and either go around the net or dump it back along the corner boards. He rarely, rarely shoots and when he does, it's always deliberate. What makes that all the more frustrating is how well he plays in his own zone, and how he has the ability to force that same exact play to happen to others, not because they are being dumb, but because he's taking the play away from them.

It also seems like he tries to emulate his linemates way too much, instead of just playing his game. When he was with Zherdev he'd try to dangle for no reason, with Jagr he'd always try to work his body around others (which was actually not a bad strategy for him at all since he has very strong legs) and when he was up on the first line early in the year he'd try to be "elusive" on the ice. The only time he truly had it going was last year, on a meat and potatoes line with Callahan and Anisimov that did nothing but work to get pucks on net and clean up the garbage. that is his game and that is what he does well. Why he wont play that way with others is beyond me.

He also came into camp really top heavy, like unbelievably so in my opinion. There was a pic from around late August or early September this past summer of him, Boyle, MDZ I think and Hank, and he's got guns that are so unnecessary. His skating hasn't been the same at all this year since, and that's bad considering his skating was pretty average before hand. He falls down so much now, and not because he's being forced down, just on his own. The balance isn't there and he is so choppy.

I could rant on and on about Dubinsky, but it's because he's just so damn frustrating, especially after coming off the kind of year he had last year. There was room to grow and I was hoping he would take that next step this season, but it just happened completely in reverse. This is why I think he really needs to be traded (if a trade is made), the guy has no perspective here at this point, and I don't know that the point will get driven home for him until he is forced to pack his bags and re-think his game.

I'm really of the opinion that that first line doesn't get broken up. Maybe let Anisimov take all the faceoffs as he has really become proficient in it, but let them keep their chemistry up. Gaborik has been a little cold, but that's more because he's not finishing, not because the chances haven't been there.

[farhanshak 1]

Wolski was just traded to Florida for Vernace and a third round pick

[str8prostock 1]

Wolski was just traded to Florida for Vernace and a third round pick

hopefully freeing up some cap room for nash..