Player Killed in Edmonton (puck to the throat)

[Shark#81 0]

I was thinking carbon or plastic over a dual density EVA - gotta be light

gels are probably polyurethanes which are heavy in comparison

[Chadd 916]

I was thinking carbon or plastic over a dual density EVA - gotta be light

gels are probably polyurethanes which are heavy in comparison

You think carbon for everything. I think it needs to be soft for this application with perhaps a cut resistant inner lining.

[ktang 34]

ktang--I am aware that the BNQ certified neck protector lacks any blunt force trauma protection. That's my point. The 'certification' thing seems half-baked to me. How is it that only skate cuts were factored into this expensive certification. The feeling I have developed while in this business is that player's safety is not the overall priority. How many products are there on the market that don't measure up and I'm not just talking about hockey? It's a rhetorical question. One posed to spark thought.

Only skate cuts were factored into this expensive certification because this was a legislative reaction to a hockey death (in Quebec) due to a skate cut to the neck. The mandatory use of these types of neck guards in Canadian minor hockey is for protection against this kind of injury, not against blunt force trauma.

[SWhaley30 0]

Only skate cuts were factored into this expensive certification because this was a legislative reaction to a hockey death (in Quebec) due to a skate cut to the neck. The mandatory use of these types of neck guards in Canadian minor hockey is for protection against this kind of injury, not against blunt force trauma.

Well put Ktang, but I think your comment exemplifies exactly what Phil was getting at. The whole kevlar collar was in response to a tragedy that occurred, without designing a standard for all the different things that could take place in the course of a game to a player's neck area. The BNQ, in my opinion, should either up their standards to include impact protection, if they want to known as the administration which certifies neck protection, or claim specifically that their certification is merely to ward off neck cuts.

[ktang 34]

Well put Ktang, but I think your comment exemplifies exactly what Phil was getting at. The whole kevlar collar was in response to a tragedy that occurred, without designing a standard for all the different things that could take place in the course of a game to a player's neck area. The BNQ, in my opinion, should either up their standards to include impact protection, if they want to known as the administration which certifies neck protection, or claim specifically that their certification is merely to ward off neck cuts.

I agree that, in an ideal world, having safety standards for equipment against blunt force protection for the neck area. I also believe that the current BNQ certification is for neck cuts only.

The current BNQ testing standard is an easy one, because it is for protection against skate cuts only. So current BNQ certification is simple to administrate.

However, the testing standard for blunt force protection for the neck area would be extremely difficult; the exposed trachea in the neck is like an eggshell, and a 6 oz puck going only 70 mph could easily shatter it enough so that the body's natural response of swelling in the area could then become fatal. This difficult testing standard would make it difficult and expensive for the Canadian government and for Hockey Canada to mandate blunt force protection for the neck area.

Dissipating the blunt force to other areas that can handle more impact with a design that is lightweight, affordable, comfortable, and reliable could be very problematic too.

I don't think that something soft, such as a foam, colloid, or an enclosed gel, wrapped around the neck can dissipate enough of the impact unless it is very dense and wide. Even an affordable d3o-like material in a wrap-around neck protector may still transfer too much of the impact to the trachea. E.g. putting bubble wrap around an egg would not protect the egg from a 2nd-storey drop to concrete.

We don't want the impact forces to be dissipated to the jaw or head, because that can cause concussions.

So, that may leave dissipating the majority of the impact to the sternum, and/or clavicles as a remaining option. This might require something such as the goalies' clear throat protectors dangling from the players' cages (cages are already mandated for Canadian minor hockey), or something projecting upwards from the shoulder pad / chest protector.

[SWhaley30 0]

I agree that, in an ideal world, having safety standards for equipment against blunt force protection for the neck area. I also believe that the current BNQ certification is for neck cuts only.

The current BNQ testing standard is an easy one, because it is for protection against skate cuts only. So current BNQ certification is simple to administrate.

However, the testing standard for blunt force protection for the neck area would be extremely difficult; the exposed trachea in the neck is like an eggshell, and a 6 oz puck going only 70 mph could easily shatter it enough so that the body's natural response of swelling in the area could then become fatal. This difficult testing standard would make it difficult and expensive for the Canadian government and for Hockey Canada to mandate blunt force protection for the neck area.

Dissipating the blunt force to other areas that can handle more impact with a design that is lightweight, affordable, comfortable, and reliable could be very problematic too.

I don't think that something soft, such as a foam, colloid, or an enclosed gel, wrapped around the neck can dissipate enough of the impact unless it is very dense and wide. Even an affordable d3o-like material in a wrap-around neck protector may still transfer too much of the impact to the trachea. E.g. putting bubble wrap around an egg would not protect the egg from a 2nd-storey drop to concrete.

We don't want the impact forces to be dissipated to the jaw or head, because that can cause concussions.

So, that may leave dissipating the majority of the impact to the sternum, and/or clavicles as a remaining option. This might require something such as the goalies' clear throat protectors dangling from the players' cages (cages are already mandated for Canadian minor hockey), or something projecting upwards from the shoulder pad / chest protector.

I'll have to disagree here on some points KTang.

First, just because it would be difficult to test should mean that an institution should forego figuring out a standard with which to test? If it's difficult, then the cost of the test should go up, but we shouldn't rule out doing testing just because it is difficult.

Do you have any formal experience working with or using the gel, epp foams, etc that you mention as not being sufficient in providing the level of protection? Just so I can clarify from you previous post, if you are making an assumption or if you had some experience of some sort, as you seem knowledgeable on this particular area (please do not read any sarcasm into this, as it is not my intent at all).

To be honest, I know a ton of goalies including myself who use the gel based solution with many a shot that should have killed, leaving nothing more than a mild bruise. Meanwhile, I have had many danglers shatter, break, etc, or even have the puck somehow get underneath, causing quite a bit of damage (from a bruising and pain perspective, nothing more than that).

Hell, I was so impressed with it, I even invested in Maltese.

[Hooah4 12]

After reading this information, etc..I have decided to buy my son a maltese. He actually took a lightly flipped puck to the throat last season but in my stupidity I brushed it off for some time.

It's amazing how some parents spend $$$$ on skates, sticks, etc...but skimp on helmets and something such as a throat protector.

[jds 20]

An interesting follow including how Hockey Canada is looking at this .

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/hockey-canada-to-review-slap-shot-blocking-risk-after-death-of-young-player/article2236024/

[ktang 34]

I'll have to disagree here on some points KTang.

First, just because it would be difficult to test should mean that an institution should forego figuring out a standard with which to test? If it's difficult, then the cost of the test should go up, but we shouldn't rule out doing testing just because it is difficult.

Do you have any formal experience working with or using the gel, epp foams, etc that you mention as not being sufficient in providing the level of protection? Just so I can clarify from you previous post, if you are making an assumption or if you had some experience of some sort, as you seem knowledgeable on this particular area (please do not read any sarcasm into this, as it is not my intent at all).

To be honest, I know a ton of goalies including myself who use the gel based solution with many a shot that should have killed, leaving nothing more than a mild bruise. Meanwhile, I have had many danglers shatter, break, etc, or even have the puck somehow get underneath, causing quite a bit of damage (from a bruising and pain perspective, nothing more than that).

Hell, I was so impressed with it, I even invested in Maltese.

About the testing: I wasn't clear enough before. What I meant was that the government agency would have a difficult time determining the testing protocols. Performance-based testing standards would probably be set very high, to err on the safe side.

My most closely-related background to this is next-gen ballistic and blunt force armour protection for soldiers, so it's in the ballpark but not close. High-tech gels, colloids, and foams were studied, for both blunt force and penetration protection.

The danglers would be like the current ceramic armour plates; they help dissipate some of the impact by shattering, and shouldn't be used after a significant event.

Whilst you and a ton of goalies have been protected against kill shots to the neck by the Maltese neck protector, there would be other shots that would still have killed you and the other goalies through the gel-based neck protector under other circumstances (harder shots, shots on-edge, shots hitting more directly on the adam's apple, etc.). The Globe-And-Mail article that jds linked to above, though, has some thinking that these shots are rare enough that additional protection may not be needed.

A gel-based neck protector is better than nothing, and it is comfortable, but it won't protect against all shot circumstances, and it would not pass high-safety-margin performance-based testing standards.

[SWhaley30 0]

About the testing: I wasn't clear enough before. What I meant was that the government agency would have a difficult time determining the testing protocols. Performance-based testing standards would probably be set very high, to err on the safe side.

My most closely-related background to this is next-gen ballistic and blunt force armour protection for soldiers, so it's in the ballpark but not close. High-tech gels, colloids, and foams were studied, for both blunt force and penetration protection.

The danglers would be like the current ceramic armour plates; they help dissipate some of the impact by shattering, and shouldn't be used after a significant event.

Whilst you and a ton of goalies have been protected against kill shots to the neck by the Maltese neck protector, there would be other shots that would still have killed you and the other goalies through the gel-based neck protector under other circumstances (harder shots, shots on-edge, shots hitting more directly on the adam's apple, etc.). The Globe-And-Mail article that jds linked to above, though, has some thinking that these shots are rare enough that additional protection may not be needed.

A gel-based neck protector is better than nothing, and it is comfortable, but it won't protect against all shot circumstances, and it would not pass high-safety-margin performance-based testing standards.

Thanks for the clarification here.

I think what we are missing here specifically around the shots that would have killed, is really, in your opinion they could have killed based on your understanding of the gels/materials potentially tested in your field of research. Being that the point of impact and dispersal of energy between a bullet and puck are so vastly different based on surface area alone, as well as the quality of gels/materials you may have tested could be of different content and mixture.

I don't want to make this a selling thread by any, way, shape or form, or give any sort of guarantee that one product will be the end all of protection, but the readers of the thread deserve a devil's advocate point of view, outside of an specific untested opinion.

Let's suffice to say that based off of your experience the gel would not work, but that is without you conducting specific testing to discount this theory.

[Axxion89 32]

Nothing is going to protect you from everything. Maltese's products so a very good job of limiting the impact to the neck area than other products. Will it save your throat from a deflected wrister heading to the neck, yup. Will it save your throat from Chara's 105 mph slapper in the slot with a direct shot to your neck, probably not but maybe it will, but I don't want to find out. As a forward or defensemen, neck guards should be mandatory but the reality is that the chances of a missile of a shot coming into contact with your neck are slim if you are playing your position right. As a Goalie, your chances are far greater but we are more protected. When I and many other goalies see a shot coming right for our necks we either glove it, block it, or turtle so that the mask covers our necks and deflects the puck. No sane goalie is going to actively let the puck strike his neck unless it deflects off of a player or off of my chest protector.

What I am trying to say is that there is no way to protect yourself from everything that can occur on the ice. As players, we take the risks and accept them, if there is too much risk for you, then the only way to be risk free is to not play. The best thing to do is to limit your risks by using protective equipment and also educating players to be aware of the dangers and inform them of ways to protect themselves and put themselves in a position to limit the chances.

[Chadd 916]

How many times has this happened? I recall one NHL game where a player took a puck to the throat and had to get a tracheotomy on the way to the hospital. If you want to wear something to prevent the one in a billion chance of something like happening, great. There is no sensible reason to make it mandatory. As for the testing angle, unless it would protect from Chara or Weber taking a slapshot, there is no way it would pass certification. There is too much liability in certifying something at anything less than absurdly over the top safety levels.

[Law Goalie 147]

That's a fair point, Chadd. My sole concern is that while the probability is low, the potential damage is extremely high. It's like Pascal's Gambit for stray shots.

As a goalie, yeah, I'm exposed to more of this risk, both from deflections and rising shots through screens, and I'm unusually zealous about protection when I skate out because I have a tendency to do really stupid, reactionary stuff like butterflying in front of shots.

Kev is also right that there are probably some shots that would be lethal even with a Maltese or similar gel collar. However, even that level of shot would do less damage when mediated by the collar, turning a potential inoperable death into a mere life-and-death rush to the surgeon.

Similarly, a steel-toed boot isn't going to save your toes from every hazard at a construction site, but they're still standardised and mandated.

*Any* standard taking impacts into account would be better than BNQ, even if it's set up by those buffoons at the CSA who test goalie masks like bike helmets.

[DarkStar50 680]

Simply put, anything is better than nothing.

[Law Goalie 147]

Aye.

[Hooah4 12]

How many times has this happened? I recall one NHL game where a player took a puck to the throat and had to get a tracheotomy on the way to the hospital. If you want to wear something to prevent the one in a billion chance of something like happening, great. There is no sensible reason to make it mandatory. As for the testing angle, unless it would protect from Chara or Weber taking a slapshot, there is no way it would pass certification. There is too much liability in certifying something at anything less than absurdly over the top safety levels.

Trent McCleary - took a slapper to the throat @ point blank range just for reference

And I do agree to an extent but with of our litigious society some things are inevitable. Maybe not in our sport but if a kid or 2 in baseball, lacrosse, etc..dies from a ball to the throat the discussion on mandated throat protection may be expedited in youth sports. Similar to how kids in tball and coach pitch baseball that play on the pitcher's mound have to wear a face cage with batting helmet.

[Katzenjammer 1]

It's like Pascal's Gambit for stray shots.

Hah! Well said sir!

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

Dave Manson got punched in the throat as well as elbowed, caused permanent laryngitis.

[Chadd 916]

Trent McCleary - took a slapper to the throat @ point blank range just for reference

Yep, I was watching that game and I have not gone out of my way to block a shot since then. It makes no sense to leave your feet for a beer league.

[Philip Maltese 0]

I realize that because an occurrence is rare, why worry about it. That's not a good enough reason to go without, unless that thing doesn't exist.

How many times do players get hit in the nuts? Not very often is my guess, but my hope is, they still wear a cup--just in case. If you play without a cup, then it's on you if something tragic happens.

[Chadd 916]

I realize that because an occurrence is rare, why worry about it. That's not a good enough reason to go without, unless that thing doesn't exist.

How many times do players get hit in the nuts? Not very often is my guess, but my hope is, they still wear a cup--just in case. If you play without a cup, then it's on you if something tragic happens.

I agree with you. I just don't think it should be mandated.

[lere2001 0]

A bit late on this, because I haven't had a computer the last while, but I knew Kyle, and I know the kid who took the slapshot. In my opinion, this is just a complete accident that is almost impossible to avoid. He was a metre away from the shot. I think that whether or not he was wearing a more protective neck guard, the results would have probably been the same. In my opinion, I would like it if higher end neck guards such as the Maltese neck guard mentioned earlier made it to local store shelves, as an option for everyone, but I do not think it needs to be mandated in leagues. Just my two cents on the issue.

(By the way, for all wondering, it was the artery in his neck that burst that caused his death.)

[black hills tj 5]

A bit late on this, because I haven't had a computer the last while, but I knew Kyle, and I know the kid who took the slapshot. In my opinion, this is just a complete accident that is almost impossible to avoid. He was a metre away from the shot. I think that whether or not he was wearing a more protective neck guard, the results would have probably been the same. In my opinion, I would like it if higher end neck guards such as the Maltese neck guard mentioned earlier made it to local store shelves, as an option for everyone, but I do not think it needs to be mandated in leagues. Just my two cents on the issue.

(By the way, for all wondering, it was the artery in his neck that burst that caused his death.)

Sorry to hear about the event. Definitely a tragic accident that noone would ever expect to happen.

[Tikkanen 1]

Thinking outside the box, maybe the best way to prevent this sort of freak accident is to ban going down to block shots in non professional leagues? Do 16 year old kids really need to be going down to block a slap shot for a meaningless game where they aren't getting paid? It also keeps the players skates on the ice instead of sliding with skates parallel to the ice which could prevent skate cuts.

[Katzenjammer 1]

I think that whether or not he was wearing a more protective neck guard, the results would have probably been the same.

What makes you think so? Not disputing this - just wondering.