Skate Profiling - Kids Skates

[goblue9280 33]

I'll try and make this short. I live in Houston, and don't have skate profiling options. It's hard enough to get a halfway decent sharpening. I have an 8-year old, he's been skating/playing since he was 4. He's always had a nice stride, and took to skating quickly. I've kept him in a weekly power skating class for the last few years taught by a figure skating coach (not sure how much he knows about hockey power skating though). He's great on his edges, solid on his skates, great transitions forwards to backwards... best crossovers at his age both forward and backward. The one issue that is frustrating him is his straight-line speed. While he's still one of the fastest kids, there are a number of kids with were sloppy strides that beat him in races to the puck. From my vantage point, he is too upright on his forward stride... too me it looks like he needs more forward lean. Obviously there are a lot of other mechanics issue that are probably in play (stride length, kicking feet up too much at full stride, etc), however I want to focus on this one issue.

So, he's about to move into junior sized skates, which means removable runners... thus I can mail them out for profiling. If I get his skates profiled to give him more pitch and get him over his skates, will this just be a crutch, or will it actually help to change his muscle memory into getting him more forward lean? I just want to fix the issue now, and as much as I talk to him about leaning forward more when striding forward, he's not been able to make that change... and I don't want to get into his head to much, as I think it should be more of a natural muscle memory thing. I know he's only 8, but I think the longer this goes on, the harder it will be for him to change it down the road. Any input is welcome, as I'm obviously not that knowledgeable about profiling.

[lsjaniec@hotmail.com 0]

Try putting him in some Graf's... they have a forward pitch. Also, kids with shorter sticks are forced to bend and get over their skates...

[jimmy 194]

GoBlue, you are on the right track. Some pitch and a profile will help him get a deeper knee bend which will help with balance and his stride. Also, once he gets out of youth skates which have a very long radius (which does not allow the skate to roll forward, he'll be better off. His muscle memory will adapt easily to the profile.

[chk hrd 164]

I've kept him in a weekly power skating class for the last few years taught by a figure skating coach (not sure how much he knows about hockey power skating though).

Power skating is power skating. IMHO figure skaters have the best control of thier skates and having lessons from a knowledgeable coach is great.

I'm not a big fan of profiling skates for young kids. I'd rather them learn on a more nuetral profile and develop the best technigue possible before going to a forward profile an putting him on a forward learn automatically. The profile doesn't affect how long your stride is or your knee bend. You can only strech your leg out as far as it is long and knee bend is the result of propper body position. For kids shorters sticks usually make them bend at the waist to get over thier stick which you don't want. Give him the right size stick and teach them shoulders over knees, knees over ankles so the develop a good stance.

I look at it like golf equipment. People want thier equipment to fix thier flaws (slices, hooks, etc.) instead of teaching thier body how to swing the club correctly. He has plenty of learning to still do. When he gets to the upper levels of skating than profiling will help tweak his propper technique.

[Chadd 916]

Power skating is power skating. IMHO figure skaters have the best control of thier skates and having lessons from a knowledgeable coach is great.

I'm not a big fan of profiling skates for young kids. I'd rather them learn on a more nuetral profile and develop the best technigue possible before going to a forward profile an putting him on a forward learn automatically. The profile doesn't affect how long your stride is or your knee bend. You can only strech your leg out as far as it is long and knee bend is the result of propper body position. For kids shorters sticks usually make them bend at the waist to get over thier stick which you don't want. Give him the right size stick and teach them shoulders over knees, knees over ankles so the develop a good stance.

I look at it like golf equipment. People want thier equipment to fix thier flaws (slices, hooks, etc.) instead of teaching thier body how to swing the club correctly. He has plenty of learning to still do. When he gets to the upper levels of skating than profiling will help tweak his propper technique.

Well said. I agree with absolutely everything in that post.

[jimmy 194]

Conversly, I'm a big fan of profiling youth skates. If you "learn" with a poor or non matched profile on a skate, the skater will develop bad habits that will be harder to correct later. For example, a skate that puts the skater on their heels is not good and it does make it difficult to get in a low skating stance and throws off overall balance as well.. The length of the radius is not as important, that can be tweaked later, but proper balance is very important..

[Chadd 916]

Conversly, I'm a big fan of profiling youth skates.

In all fairness, you sharpen and profile skates as part of your job. It is in your financial interest to have more people changing their profile.

[chk hrd 164]

If you "learn" with a poor or non matched profile on a skate, the skater will develop bad habits that will be harder to correct later.

That's why I said a nuetral profile, not to much forward or backwards lean. poor matched or non matched blades are not profiled, they have just had alot of bad sharpening. Have the blades done right and then learn the right. That way no matter what is under your feet you can still skate.

[goblue9280 33]

Power skating is power skating. IMHO figure skaters have the best control of thier skates and having lessons from a knowledgeable coach is great.

I agree, and I like the fact that he's working with a figure skating instructor. The only thing I was referring to with that comment was forward lean. From what I noticed (when my daughter was taking figure skating) they stress keeping the upper body straight with the shoulders back. So in my sons case, I feel the power skating coach doesn't stress that forward trunk flexion needed for straightline speed.

I look at it like golf equipment. People want thier equipment to fix thier flaws (slices, hooks, etc.)...

Exactly, that's what I was talking about with my "crutch" comment. I don't want the "offset golf clubs" of the hockey world for him... but if it forces him to learn to get more forward pitch, then I would consider it.

Not sure if it matters but he is currently in a size Y13.5 Reebok 11k pump.

[raganblink 82]

In all fairness, you sharpen and profile skates as part of your job. It is in your financial interest to have more people changing their profile.

It is also in our financial interest for kids to stay in the game as long as possible, and maximize their full potential. KIds quit all the time in hockey because things aren't working right for them, that's why when I sell gear or profile/sharpen I stress to the parents that properly sized equipment or an adjustment in their equipment is necessary, even if it will cost them extra money in the long run.

I've had parents come in trying to sell back their gear to us since their kids quit... sometimes it involves gear related things and they get frustrated and quit, but usually it is skating, and they aren't getting it. Profiling skates, regardless of size is necessary IMO to make the players better at what they are doing so that they stick with it. For instance I had a mom mid-season come in and her kid who had a huge issue with skating. He is in supreme skates (more on heels) with a 3/8ths hollow, and his steel was worn down quite a bit (handed down pair) so we were increasing the radius with every sharpening so we wouldn't hit plastic. Convinced mom to have us change steel, put a slight forward lean on the skates with 9foot radius, and now he is skating 10X better. Yes this did cost the mom an extra $70 to do that, but she's pretty happy with the results so no complaints.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

I witnessed this "phenomenon" in MI with all of the sharpening shops who would say they could improve your skating..."I can make your kid skate faster..."

Kids on a size 1 skating with 11' to 13' radius - yeah, they were stabler, but every turn was a battleship turn. It was brutal. And none of these profilers ever witnessed the kid skate; which is what I would do for each of my profiles.

With the little guys, I always found optimizing the hollow worked easier than a profile; since they didn't weigh much, they wouldn't have much bite when skating, resulting in lack of confidence.

I'm all about finding a happy medium for those needing it; that is what a profile should be. You're balancing the skate to the skater, not forcing a profile to optimize something. But I digress...

[chk hrd 164]

It sounds pretty obvious that his hand me down blades were wore out. With proper blades he may have skated just fine. If he was still struggling you could have offered to put a more forward lean on the blade. Without skating on the stock blades you have no way to know if profiling did anything for his skating.

[goblue9280 33]

So it sounds like there's really two schools of thought here. On one side, a change to a kids skate profile can have a slight beneficial effect on skating form (which is what I'm looking for). On the other side, at this age it'd be a technology fix when really all that's needed is a form fix.

I agree with parts of both sides. I'm just trying to get him slightly more forward on his skates... I don't want to affect the other areas of his skating. I'm not under the misconception that he'll all of the sudden be the fastest kid out there, but I do think his more upright body position during forward sprinting is cutting down on his speed.

Anyhow, we usually go back to Michigan for a week over the summer, so I might try and arrange for a skate profiler to take a look at his skating. I also noticed that Laura Stamm's powerskating camp is going to be at one of the Houston rinks this summer, so I might sign him up for that and see what they say about his stride. Maybe they'll have some tips for things to try before worrying about the profile.

As a disclaimer, I swear I'm not one of those crazy stage parents. We live in Houston fegodsakes, I know he's not on a fast track for the NHL. It's just something he has been frustrated with, and I want to help him out.

[raganblink 82]

Not trying to plug her or promote her or anything, but, she knows her stuff and those camps are awesome. I wouldn't consider it, I would do it. His skating, especially north/south, will become a lot faster after that camp.

[talkintothemike 4]

So it sounds like there's really two schools of thought here. On one side, a change to a kids skate profile can have a slight beneficial effect on skating form (which is what I'm looking for). On the other side, at this age it'd be a technology fix when really all that's needed is a form fix.

I agree with parts of both sides. I'm just trying to get him slightly more forward on his skates... I don't want to affect the other areas of his skating. I'm not under the misconception that he'll all of the sudden be the fastest kid out there, but I do think his more upright body position during forward sprinting is cutting down on his speed.

Anyhow, we usually go back to Michigan for a week over the summer, so I might try and arrange for a skate profiler to take a look at his skating. I also noticed that Laura Stamm's powerskating camp is going to be at one of the Houston rinks this summer, so I might sign him up for that and see what they say about his stride. Maybe they'll have some tips for things to try before worrying about the profile.

As a disclaimer, I swear I'm not one of those crazy stage parents. We live in Houston fegodsakes, I know he's not on a fast track for the NHL. It's just something he has been frustrated with, and I want to help him out.

GoBlue: I am right there with you and having similar issues. I have absolutely no visions of anything other than trying to help if that help is available. I have been reading this thread with great interest.

[jimmy 194]

In all fairness, you sharpen and profile skates as part of your job. It is in your financial interest to have more people changing their profile.

Partly true, except, I don't blindly recommend profile changes for everyone. Most of my customers are referrals by coachs/instructors who have told the parent or skater that they need a profile change to fix a specific problem. That's what I do, fix it.

In our store we never initiate requests for profiling to customers, unless they ask us if there is something that can be done to correct a problem or if they simply want to get more performance out of the skates. I just had a gunsmith do a trigger job on one of my pistols, it simply involved lightly sanding/polishing the factory's rough machining marks off the trigger mechanism. So minor a change, but Wow, what a difference in performance. I can now shoot 2" groupings, instead of 3". I am a big proponent of profiling to match radius and pivot points which are ALL over the place on new factory steel, or having been altered by hack sharpeners. This profile does not have to change the stock profile, rather just ensure it's accurate on the left and right skate. Necessary, nope, but sure does make thing smoother, just like my trigger pull.

[ahbroody 1]

As someone whos kid has been skating on skates with a forward profile for 2 years now I will say for him it absolutely forced him to have a deeper knee bend/ forward lean, become quicker and develop good edge control. Two years ago I remember him skating upright looking like he was about to fall backwards all the time. I asked around and someone recommend I have his skates profiled. For him the results were dramatic.

One thing I would also look into for the OP is whether your son is playing other sports that involve running and endurance. Something I noticed with my son thia year was the need to play other sports. I have seen a few kids who are avid swimmers who while ugly to watch are very fast. They have amazing leg strength and endurance for their age. This is also the case for a few kids who play soccer. While I dont see a forward profile hurting a childs form, I think having the child play sports which build leg strength and stamina will also help.

Someone menioned Grafs. My son is in the Supra 370 tykes. While the skate boot is fantastic the holders on the youth skates are horrible. I would post a pic of what we did but ......

I cant wait till we move out of the youth skates to the jr. We are in 12s though so have a little longer.

[goblue9280 33]

Thanks ahbroody, I appreciate the input. Yeah, he plays soccer as well (just started the spring season, he didn't play this fall). In soccer he's always one of the top 3 in terms of quickness and endurance... but he doesn't play as much so his feet suck compared to some of the other kids, lol. One of our most dominate hockey players is a competitive swimmer, crazy endurance on that kid... hockey is his secondary sport. I'll probably look into doing something this summer if I make it back to Michigan. Hoping my son doesn't outgrow his Y13.5's before then, as I'd like to get him properly fitted for his next pair when we are back.

raganblink, I went ahead and order Stamm's book just now on amazon. I'll see if there are some tips in there that will help. I'm definitely going to sign him up for that camp.

[jimmy 194]

Thanks ahbroody, I appreciate the input. Yeah, he plays soccer as well (just started the spring season, he didn't play this fall). In soccer he's always one of the top 3 in terms of quickness and endurance... but he doesn't play as much so his feet suck compared to some of the other kids, lol. One of our most dominate hockey players is a competitive swimmer, crazy endurance on that kid... hockey is his secondary sport. I'll probably look into doing something this summer if I make it back to Michigan. Hoping my son doesn't outgrow his Y13.5's before then, as I'd like to get him properly fitted for his next pair when we are back.

raganblink, I went ahead and order Stamm's book just now on amazon. I'll see if there are some tips in there that will help. I'm definitely going to sign him up for that camp.

Soccer is great for the hockey player, great crossover sport, way better than lacrosse. The footwork skills he get will help so much.

[Powerfibers 8]

Soccer is great for seeing the field of play also. Helped my son a tremendous amount.

[Chadd 916]

Soccer is great for seeing the field of play also. Helped my son a tremendous amount.

I grew up playing a lot of basketball and hockey is much easier to see plays develop due to the larger playing surface and ability to pass off the boards.