Dirtiest NHL Team this season?

[Law Goalie 147]

Ference barely moved. Halpern literally skated right into him.

I never said he made a large move. I'm glad we agree that he did move into Halpern, because that's precisely what happened: he made a small shift into a defenseless player's head. As for Halpern 'skating into him'...

It's irrelevant where the puck is. Ference is not skating towards Halpern. Ference is skating forward and Halpern skates directly at him.

The location of the puck is not of immediate relevance, except in that Ference has absolutely no right to make contact with Halpern in the absence of the puck. This would still be a dirty hit even if the puck was close by.

Relevant points:

Halpern never sees Ference, so he can't reasonably be said to 'skate into him' because that implies agency. Halpern is skating, NOT skating into Ference. If you want to broaden 'skating into' to include skating around the rink with no immediate intention to make contact with anyone, fair enough, but the tenor of the language implies an absent agency.

Ference does see Halpern coming, and as we both agreed, he does make a subtle move into Halpern; because the puck is absent, and there is a visual discrepancy, it actually is Ference's responsibility not to hit Halpern. Contact away from the puck is fine, as in front of the net; hitting players who aren't expecting and can't reasonably be asked to expect a hit is not.

This kinda seem like an agrument between Bruins and Canadiens fans.

Not on my part. I don't have an iota of preference in that pair.

It's one of those ill conceived threads that can go nowhere except petty arguments and unsubstantiated mudslinging.

Curious that this is your expectation.

[troy 12]

I like you, Law Goalie.

[wrangler 157]

In my mind, to be dirty means to play outside the rules and not get caught doing it. Watching the Pens/Bruins game the other day, the Pens got away with more. That Malkin hit on Boychuk was more than a 2 minute boarding call. I honestly feel that if any Bruin hit Malkin like that, it would have been. And there would have been supplemental discipline. For all the whining about how dirty the Bruins are, they sure seem to have a lot of guys out with concussions and injuries from unpenalized hits.

I can't subscribe to "It's not dirty if you get caught".

[hockeymass 11]

I never said he made a large move. I'm glad we agree that he did move into Halpern, because that's precisely what happened: he made a small shift into a defenseless player's head. As for Halpern 'skating into him'...

The location of the puck is not of immediate relevance, except in that Ference has absolutely no right to make contact with Halpern in the absence of the puck. This would still be a dirty hit even if the puck was close by.

Relevant points:

Halpern never sees Ference, so he can't reasonably be said to 'skate into him' because that implies agency. Halpern is skating, NOT skating into Ference. If you want to broaden 'skating into' to include skating around the rink with no immediate intention to make contact with anyone, fair enough, but the tenor of the language implies an absent agency.

Ference does see Halpern coming, and as we both agreed, he does make a subtle move into Halpern; because the puck is absent, and there is a visual discrepancy, it actually is Ference's responsibility not to hit Halpern. Contact away from the puck is fine, as in front of the net; hitting players who aren't expecting and can't reasonably be asked to expect a hit is not.

Not on my part. I don't have an iota of preference in that pair.

Curious that this is your expectation.

I can't agree. I don't see how it's Ference's responsibility to get out of Halpern's way. Ference obviously does move, but I would say he's bracing for the impact moreso than actually delivering a hit. I just don't see that it's a dirty play.

[Gr8erade 1]

I can't subscribe to "It's not dirty if you get caught".

Then you should offer up your own definition of "dirty.". Because lots of people call the Bruins dirty, but as I just pointed out, their times on the powerplay and times shorthanded are pretty similar. And if you compare against other teams, those 222 and 220 numbers are much further down the chart than I think most people would assume.

As for Halpern and Ference, well, I recall lots of people claiming that Giroux hitting Bergeron well after Bergeron passed the puck in the playoffs last year was "finishing a check" and therefore okay to smoke him even though Bergeron neither had the puck nor was looking at Giroux. I see Halpern and Ference ending up trying to share the same piece of ice. I don't see that Ference was obligated to get out of Halpern's way, just because Halpern wasn't watching where he was going.

[mug25 2]

Bruins.

[Larry54 243]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffiQUe1tfqM

Ference barely moved. Halpern literally skated right into him.

Your video is not as revealing as this one. At 0:44 of the following video, look at how his shoulder comes out, but more importantly, look at how his left skate changes direction to head toward Halpern just before the hit. It's so obvious.

[Law Goalie 147]

I can't agree. I don't see how it's Ference's responsibility to get out of Halpern's way. Ference obviously does move, but I would say he's bracing for the impact moreso than actually delivering a hit. I just don't see that it's a dirty play.

Let me give you a pair of analogies. If a player skates around the ice with his stick held out like a lance, and someone accidentally runs into it, he'll get called for spearing. If he goes around with his stick held above his shoulders and someone runs into it, he'll be called for high-sticking. In both cases, the opposing player 'skates into' the penalised player, but the call would clearly be made.

The same is true of interference. If two players are on a collision course, and only one player can possibly be aware of that ballistic fact, the responsibility lies with the player who does know that there will be a collision. If neither player knows, there won't be an interference call. This is why Gr8's argument doesn't work: the players are not sharing the ice equally because Halpern isn't aware of the situation and Ference clearly is. If Halpern were in possession of the puck, the onus would be on him to expect the hit; with the puck far off, he is not responsible for expecting a collision.

Beyond that, Ference not only braces for the impact, he does in fact, as you yourself acknowledged, move subtly into Halpern: he maximizes the impact rather than minimizing it. And I don't think it a stretch to argue, watching Ference's eyes, that he is aiming high on Halpern, if not directly at his head. Even if you don't agree to that, the fact is that Ference did hit him in the head when he could easily have avoided him.

And thank you, Larry for that new video and commentary: very revealing.

[hockeymass 11]

Let me give you a pair of analogies. If a player skates around the ice with his stick held out like a lance, and someone accidentally runs into it, he'll get called for spearing. If he goes around with his stick held above his shoulders and someone runs into it, he'll be called for high-sticking. In both cases, the opposing player 'skates into' the penalised player, but the call would clearly be made.

The same is true of interference. If two players are on a collision course, and only one player can possibly be aware of that ballistic fact, the responsibility lies with the player who does know that there will be a collision. If neither player knows, there won't be an interference call. This is why Gr8's argument doesn't work: the players are not sharing the ice equally because Halpern isn't aware of the situation and Ference clearly is. If Halpern were in possession of the puck, the onus would be on him to expect the hit; with the puck far off, he is not responsible for expecting a collision.

Beyond that, Ference not only braces for the impact, he does in fact, as you yourself acknowledged, move subtly into Halpern: he maximizes the impact rather than minimizing it. And I don't think it a stretch to argue, watching Ference's eyes, that he is aiming high on Halpern, if not directly at his head. Even if you don't agree to that, the fact is that Ference did hit him in the head when he could easily have avoided him.

And thank you, Larry for that new video and commentary: very revealing.

I still don't agree. Skating around with your stick out or up at your shoulders is quite different than just skating. Could Ference have made an effort to avoid him? Yes. Do I think this was a dirty play? Not in the least.

[Law Goalie 147]

I didn't say they were not different; I said they were analogous, which requires there be difference -- except on the point of analogy, which you haven't addressed. Are you suggesting that my related interpretation of the stick fouls and the interference penalty is somehow inaccurate? If so, how?

The real question is not whether Ference could have avoided him -- obviously he could have, we both agree on that -- but whether he is responsible for 1) not avoiding Halpern, and/or 2) maximizing the impact to Halpern's head. Since we both agreed that Ference did in fact move into Halpern, however subtly, which Larry's video nicely illustrates, I'm not really sure what's arguable about this unless you want the word 'dirty' not to apply to interference that puts the victim in the coma ward.

[pbhockey4 0]

For people who wanted to know why I created this thread was to see which team is the dirtiest in the NHL. I go to a college in NH as a devils fan where I am surrounded by Bruins fans (sick of them) I wanted to see what you guys though of being the dirtiest team out there. I keep watching bruins game on my college tv network and see how bad Bruins games can get. I had no intention of making it a bruins/canadians thread. I would imagine however the flyers and the bruins being the drtiest teams in the league.

[wrangler 157]

I can't subscribe to "It's not dirty if you get caught".

Then you should offer up your own definition of "dirty.". Because lots of people call the Bruins dirty, but as I just pointed out, their times on the powerplay and times shorthanded are pretty similar. And if you compare against other teams, those 222 and 220 numbers are much further down the chart than I think most people would assume.

As for Halpern and Ference, well, I recall lots of people claiming that Giroux hitting Bergeron well after Bergeron passed the puck in the playoffs last year was "finishing a check" and therefore okay to smoke him even though Bergeron neither had the puck nor was looking at Giroux. I see Halpern and Ference ending up trying to share the same piece of ice. I don't see that Ference was obligated to get out of Halpern's way, just because Halpern wasn't watching where he was going.

Why? That's got nothing to do with my point -- that a play doesn't become "dirty" or not "dirty" based on whether it's penalized. That's after the fact, and has nothing to do with the character of the act.

[Jason Harris 31]

I only watch Bruins' games, so I can only base my opinion on those games. Bear in mind, however, that I think most NHL players border on dirty. Slashing, cross-checking, hooking, holding -- who doesn't do that in the NHL?

Marchand's dirty, yet has no reason to be, because he's a legitimate 25-30 goal scorer. Ference may have displayed low class in flipping off the crowd, but low class and dirty are not the same thing. Regarding the collision with Halpern, he set his shoulder when another player was accidentally running into him, then flinched his shoulder half an inch; Ference was looking up ice, so for all we know, maybe he thought Halpern was trying to run him. Lucic gets somewhat dirty with crosschecks or slashes during scrums in front of the net; wrong thought that may be, I think he does it partially out of a feeling of obligation, that he is one of the enforcers on the team. Marc Savard used to be dirty; he'd slash all the time.

But the rest of them are just like other players in the NHL: slashing, cross-checking, hooking and holding all the time -- just like everyone else. By the way, I suspect many of you may be confusing fighting with being dirty. Until the NHL bans fighting, it is within the rules to engage in fisticuffs. Since the B's do so more than most other teams, I think that's why some people have the notion that they are dirty.

i recall one game earlier this season when I made a post in the Bruins' thread that that particular team seemed to push the envelope with late hits, something I would consider dirty because it risks injuring another player. I'm pretty sure it was the Flyers.

[HockeySavants 5]

The St. Louis Blues

I hate everyone on that team

[kklinder 0]

This is absolutely irrelevant and a strawman at best.

Fanaticism makes some people blind to the truth...your ultra-sensitivity on this topic only highlights that point.

Regarding the collision with Halpern, he set his shoulder when another player was accidentally running into him, then flinched his shoulder half an inch; Ference was looking up ice, so for all we know, maybe he thought Halpern was trying to run him.

You offer the only plausible defense of Ference thus far, but it's a stretch when you watch the video. Ference should only presume he's about to get run if Halpern's history/playing style would suggest it.

Overall, this thread reminds me of my son's Squirts team - every loss is because of bad referees...always somebody else's issue...comedy!

[DBear 0]

Ference should only presume he's about to get run if Halpern's history/playing style would suggest it.

So you are saying that a player has to make a decision about the guy coming twds him and ascertain if based their playing style and

history the situation would suggest that he is about to get run? That is a pretty tall order.

I think that a better prescription would be for all players to keep their heads up, look where they are going and to defend themselves

at all times when on the ice. If Halpern was doing that, Ference's hit, dirty or not would never have happened.

[Jason Harris 31]

You offer the only plausible defense of Ference thus far, but it's a stretch when you watch the video. Ference should only presume he's about to get run if Halpern's history/playing style would suggest it.

You're assuming that Ference knew it was Halpern who was about to hit him, and you may be right, but I'll give you a scenario that might explain otherwise.

I was playing goalie yesterday during drop-in. Puck bounces around and comes out to one of their better players slightly inside the left circle, so I came out to challenge him since he has a hard shot. He passed it over to the player that had been standing to my right the past five seconds -- and who was now behind me -- for an easy tap in. I turned toward one of our players and said, "I thought that was one of our guys!"

With the puck going back and forth, I knew someone was standing right in front of me, but I never had a chance to focus on who it was. I just assumed it was someone on my team playing defense. The same thing could have easily happened to Ference. His eyes appeared to following the puck, when suddenly he noticed in his peripheral that a player was about to run into him. What he likely wouldn't have been able to ascertain in the 6/10 of a second that he had was who was hitting him and why.

[chippa13 1844]

The thing about this type of thread is that there isn't anyone who can give a correct answer. The only way to truly know what team is the "dirtiest" is to have watched every single team play live and paid attention to everything happening away from the puck, behind the play and around the benches during shift changes. That is where most dirty stuff happens and the majority of that never gets caught by a tv camera.

[Joshison 1]

You realize everything you've discussed regarding Ferrence, the hit the finger etc is all irrelevant because this topic is called "Dirtiest Team THIS Season" Debate all you want though if it helps you. And to bring Pedro up, wth is this a I hate Boston thread now?

edit: didn't mean to quote anything.

[hockeymass 11]

Fanaticism makes some people blind to the truth...your ultra-sensitivity on this topic only highlights that point.

You offer the only plausible defense of Ference thus far, but it's a stretch when you watch the video. Ference should only presume he's about to get run if Halpern's history/playing style would suggest it.

Overall, this thread reminds me of my son's Squirts team - every loss is because of bad referees...always somebody else's issue...comedy!

How the hell is Pedro pushing an old man AT ALL relevant to the Bruins? I'm not being ultra sensitive. I'm defending the Bruins from people like you who don't have a decent argument to make and are blindly hating.

[MattyBoy 1]

"Dirtiest Team THIS Season"

I just tried to post videos... They were all of bruins and they were all from this season but I got an error message saying there were too many medie files in my post. So here's a written list:

Lucic running Miller

Lucic hitting Mcdonagh from behind and throwing a punch at him

Ference hitting McDonagh from behind

Seidenberg knee on knee with Richards

McQuaid knee on knee with Foligno

Marchand lowbridge on Salo

Marchand slewfoot on Niskanen

Those are all on youtube, every single one of them is a good argument and this isn't me blindly hating them.

[chippa13 1844]

Accusing Seidenberg of being dirty is like accusing Semin of being a fighter. Hal Gill isn't dirty but he caught Peverley with a knee on knee hit.

[MattyBoy 1]

Accusing Seidenberg of being dirty is like accusing Semin of being a fighter. Hal Gill isn't dirty but he caught Peverley with a knee on knee hit.

I'm not calling Seidenberg dirty, but I am saying sticking your leg out is a dirty play.

[goblue9280 33]

Unlike other eras, I don't think there's a team today that uses intimidation and dirty play as their main tactic to gain a competitive advantage. As Chippa said, most fans aren't watching every team equally, so our perception is skewed by those teams that receive the most media attention. I watch all of the red wings games, so I'm more familiar with their divisional rivals and would probably rank a few of them in the upper tier of dirty play. Additionally, I more often watch highlights/games of the teams with the most coverage (Pens, Flyers, Bruins, Rangers, etc). For all I know the Florida Panthers might be the dirtiest team, but I can't remember the last time I watched one of their games or really payed attention to their game highlights.

At least there is one thing we can all agree on, Detroit is far and away the cleanest team in the league, and Kronwall is the NHL's cleanest big hitter. lol

[chippa13 1844]

If you're talking about the hit on Richards, Seidenberg doesn't stick his leg out. He turns his body to get his hip into Richards and Richards tries to get around him to the inside. There wasn't even a penalty on the play so both referees apparently saw it exactly as I described.