Need Advice: Jr. Skates, Vapor to Supreme

[talkintothemike 4]

I could really use some help.

My 12 yr old son is an AA player, so a fairly decent skater. His last 2 pairs of skates have been XXV's because he liked the fit. (or was it the look?) On this last pair I noticed that the laces were far apart and that he would fail a pencil test by a mile. I suggested that when we get new skates we look at other models and brands. With a little break coming up with hockey, my son and my wife go to a LHS owned by a friend and come home with a baked and sharpened pair of One 80's, size 5.5, that we got for a steal. My son claims that he loves the fit (or is it the color?), and they do appear to fit fine. We went to a public session to just try them out and he said the boot felt fine, but he complained of feeling "back on my heels". (His words.) I figured he may feel that way because of having new, bigger skates, and also because the runners on his old Vapors were sharpened down quite a bit.

I know that the XXV Vapors have the LS2 runner and the Supreme One 80's have the 2.1 Power runner, which is a few mm longer. Both runners have the same 9' radius, so there isn't a difference in the profile. Both skate models have the same LS2 holder.

From searching threads here, there is a perception from some that the Vapors have a more forward "lean", or "pitch", and that a 3mm lift would get a Supreme to a Vapor. There is also the option to get the blade profiled to get the Supreme to match the Vapor.

My questions are, is there REALLY a lean, or pitch difference between the 2 models? Even in a Jr. skate? Should I consider the lfts, or would profiling do the trick? Or, like in the old days, just let my son skate for awhile and he will get used to it.

Thanks.

[strosedefence34 179]

My dad would have told me to deal with it and you will get used to it. I went from grafs which are known for their forward pitch to supremes and didn't feel like I was back on my heels. If you profile them you will end up having to reprofile them at some point. If you put a heel lift in you won't have to get them reprofiled. Seeing as you have a buddy who owns a shop either option if you decide to go with them shouldn't be an issue.

[jimmy 194]

My dad would have told me to deal with it and you will get used to it. I went from grafs which are known for their forward pitch to supremes and didn't feel like I was back on my heels. If you profile them you will end up having to reprofile them at some point. If you put a heel lift in you won't have to get them reprofiled. Seeing as you have a buddy who owns a shop either option if you decide to go with them shouldn't be an issue.

Not exactly correct. Just because you have a lift, does not mean that some hack sharpener hasn't taken too much off the rear of the blade, throwing the pitch off. Whether one gets a runner profiled for pitch or adds lifts for pitch, eventually they both could need to be reprofiled.

[shoeshine boy 249]

I skated for years on Vapor 8's then when I found an outrageous deal on supreme 70's so I bought them. first time out I felt I as "back on my heels" or "flat-footed" so I sold them and later bought MLX's (which I love) but also felt "flat-footed" when I tried them out at public skate. I fixed the problem by putting in a pair of yellow Superfeet. now I can't tell the difference in pitch.

[JJStripes 1]

We went to a public session to just try them out and he said the boot felt fine, but he complained of feeling "back on my heels". (His words.)

You should be very happy that your son is able to identify the problem. Most 12 year olds just say they don't like them and can't explain why.

I know that the XXV Vapors have the LS2 runner and the Supreme One 80's have the 2.1 Power runner, which is a few mm longer. Both runners have the same 9' radius, so there isn't a difference in the profile. Both skate models have the same LS2 holder.

I don't think the problem lies in the difference between the runners. The problem is that they are rockered differently. You can either go with heal lifts or get them rockered more like the old pair. I had heal lifts on my last pair of skates and I don't recommend them because they created issues with keeping the rivots tight. I'll add that these lifts came from Bauer, and I had pro equipment managers replace rivots numerous times. Needless to say, I won't be recommending lifts to anyone. It will be tough to get someone to match the rocker of your son's last pair exactly, but since he has identified the problem they should be able to take a little off the front and get it close to what he was used to. If the holders are the same size on the old and new pairs your other option is to put the old steel on the new skates, but that would require transferring the holders (not a good option because they are probably a little soft at this point), or installing new LS2 holders. That is a last resort and obviously an unsustainable solution. Eventually he is going to have to get new steel and you guys are going to have to find someone to rocker them how he likes. Best bet is to get the new steel fixed, and go skating in full gear.

My questions are, is there REALLY a lean, or pitch difference between the 2 models? Even in a Jr. skate? Should I consider the lfts, or would profiling do the trick? Or, like in the old days, just let my son skate for awhile and he will get used to it.

If he is smart enough to identify the problem he deserves to at least try to have it fixed.

[Jordan 13]

My son (the same age incidentally) made the same switch a couple of years ago...x;60s to one100s (as his foot grew, the shape changed)....he needed more fwd pitch to feel comfortable.

I would say get them profiled with more fwd pitch and he will love the skates.

[hellkitty 0]

Yeah I had some old Vapor XX's and loves them then I switched to One90's and loved them even more then I tried going to some Vapor 4.0's and I felt like I was wearing high heels so I went to the One80's and I felt back to normal. Some people prefer to be on their heels (Like me) and some like to be on their toes. I wear a junior size 3.5. Yeah I'm smal haha. If you bought them already I would have the pitch changed and he should be good to go.

[Xuno 14]

Yeah I had some old Vapor XX's and loves them then I switched to One90's and loved them even more then I tried going to some Vapor 4.0's and I felt like I was wearing high heels so I went to the One80's and I felt back to normal. Some people prefer to be on their heels (Like me) and some like to be on their toes. I wear a junior size 3.5. Yeah I'm smal haha. If you bought them already I would have the pitch changed and he should be good to go.

How tall are you? I'm 5'7 and I wear a 5.0 junior.

[talkintothemike 4]

Thanks to everyone for the input. I am really trying to stay away from lifts unless it is the only answer. Based on what everyone has said, there are other options.

Shoeshine Boy, Thanks for the idea of the Superfeet. I had not thought of trying that.

JJ Stripes, Great points. Question: Are rockering, radius, and profile the same? If both runners/blades have a 9' radius, do they have the same rocker and profile?

Jordan: This is why I love this group. You have already gone through this so your input means something. Do you know what profile you used for a 12 yr old?

Thanks again to everyone for their help.

[JJStripes 1]

JJ Stripes, Great points. Question: Are rockering, radius, and profile the same? If both runners/blades have a 9' radius, do they have the same rocker and profile?

They all have to do with the shape of the steel, but they aren't exactly the same thing. I think the definitions vary a little, but the way I see it, rockering is altering the forward backward balance and where the thickest part of the steel is. Radius, is referring to the radius of the circle that is formed by the arc shape of the bottom of the blade. Profiling is more general. It is the practice of adjusting how it is rockered, and what radius is used. It's about putting it all together to suit the skater.

[jimmy 194]

Just to clarify, rockering is changing the rocker, radiusing is changing the rocker, and profiling is changing the rocker. They are all identical, just different terms. 9' radius, 9' rocker and 9' profile are all the same. There is a bit more involved, like pitch and pivot points but those terms mean the same thing.

[Andoy 5]

OP: A possible reason why your son feels like he's 'on his heels' is most likely due to the difference in fit of the skates. With the one80s, his heel is more locked in to the skate; he probably had a bit of heel slippage with his XXVs. I had the exact same feeling when I went from XX's to One90s. Heel lifts solved the problem for me.

[talkintothemike 4]

Just to clarify, rockering is changing the rocker, radiusing is changing the rocker, and profiling is changing the rocker. They are all identical, just different terms. 9' radius, 9' rocker and 9' profile are all the same. There is a bit more involved, like pitch and pivot points but those terms mean the same thing.

So if I decide to do a custom profile for a 5"-1", 110 lb 12-yr old, what would you recommend?

Do I use a custom radius approach? (Maybe use a 35/60 approach to get that forward lean, but go with something like a 30/45 to get less blade on the ice?)

OR

Do I use a combo radius approach? (Would a 9 front and 11 back do the trick?)

OP: A possible reason why your son feels like he's 'on his heels' is most likely due to the difference in fit of the skates. With the one80s, his heel is more locked in to the skate; he probably had a bit of heel slippage with his XXVs. I had the exact same feeling when I went from XX's to One90s. Heel lifts solved the problem for me.

What size lift did you use? I have read elsewhere in MSH that a 3mm lift is necessary to get a Supreme to a Vapor. Did you use a 3mm lift?

[Jordan 13]

*****Jordan: This is why I love this group. You have already gone through this so your input means something. Do you know what profile you used for a 12 yr old?*****

He is currently on a CAG system setting of 25/40....they would describe that as "defenseman leaning" for his size of skate.

[talkintothemike 4]

I wanted to give an update: Based on the LHS's in my area, it became clear that they would not, or could not, install lifts. After many discussions on how they would profile the skates, I realized that my trust factor was not high enough to go that route at this time. (Maybe when we head north to where I am from and the LHS's have more experience with this.)

So, we tried the yellow Superfeet per Shoeshine Boy's advice. My son went on the ice for pick-up, skated around for about 5 mins, and came over to me and said, "Now they feel just like my Vapors, only more comfortable."

Problem solved. (But I may actually get his skates profiled when we get to an experienced LHS.) Thanks to everyone for their input.

[shoeshine boy 249]

woot! glad to be of service. :)

I've had mine in just over a year and they're still in great shape. I remove mine after every skate and I'm not really hard on equipment though.