Skate Weigh In....

[Pure Hockey 4]

I noted this in another forum, but... the two skates are actually a lot more similar in fit than most people think, and contrary to popular belief, the Supreme is not the wider skate.

The Supreme is going to fit as close to the foot as possible, their anatomical fit. Narrow in the toe box and narrow in the heel.

The Vapor is Bauer's Taperfit, WIDER in the toe and coming back to a Narrow V-fit Heel/ankle.

They do fit differently, but its really not that outrageous for a player to feel comfortable in both skates.

I have the graphic from Bauer, will post soon.

[talkintothemike 4]

I noted this in another forum, but... the two skates are actually a lot more similar in fit than most people think, and contrary to popular belief, the Supreme is not the wider skate.

The Supreme is going to fit as close to the foot as possible, their anatomical fit. Narrow in the toe box and narrow in the heel.

The Vapor is Bauer's Taperfit, WIDER in the toe and coming back to a Narrow V-fit Heel/ankle.

They do fit differently, but its really not that outrageous for a player to feel comfortable in both skates.

I have the graphic from Bauer, will post soon.

That is an interesting comment. It is also contrary to what I have read in various forms on MSH and heard from LHS's. Can't wait to see the graphic from Bauer.

[Pure Hockey 4]

As JR has attested to in the other forum, I'm not sure which is was at this point, but the is all coming straight from the Bauer Product line managers. Supreme fits tightest and closest, Vapor starts wider and narrows from front to back, and the Nexus is going to be widest and most voluminous throughout the skate. My regular computer is at the IT dept right now Ha, so when I get it back today, I will post immediately.

[IniNew 53]

If I remember reading the same material as you it has nothing to do with which is wider or narrower, and everything to do with the shape of the foot. The supreme's are still built on an over sized last, but they have a more anatomical fit, with the idea being the least amount of negative space. The vapors on the other hand have, ONLY in relation to the heel, a wider forefoot. More of a V shape. And the Nexus is more of a mix of the two with more volume.

[Pure Hockey 4]

Yes, the idea is on foot shape, and Supreme is going to feel/fit narrowest of the 3, I didn't say that it is wider or narrower than any other. It will fit the narrowest based on the design of the internal padding. The Vapor is going to fit wider towards the toe, I haven't measured the physical width of the skates, but its pretty irrelevant, the fit is the important part as you said, its the shape of the foot. Everyone is always going to look at it as Narrower vs Wider, and I look at it as how the inside of the skate will fit, not which is built on the widest base. The Supremes will fit and feel closest/tightest. The Vapors will fit/feel narrow in the heel and wider in the toe while the Nexus will be spacious throughout the skate.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/skatecomparison.jpg/

[hockeymass 11]

What about the profile from the side? The Vapors crush the heck out of my instep.

[Pure Hockey 4]

Unfortunately I don't have one, This is the only angle they gave me

[Chadd 916]

"Natural, close, fit" on the supreme has nothing to do with the width. The skate is designed to fit close to the foot, not be narrow. The retail D width is built on an E last, that means it is wider than a "normal" D width skate. People are misinterpreting the marketing spin and confusing the hell out of others

[Pure Hockey 4]

I'm sure I'm wording it poorly, but what Chadd said is essentially what I'm attempting to express, I'm talking about the fit and how it is going to feel. Wasn't trying to comment on the physical width of the skate.

[talkintothemike 4]

"Natural, close, fit" on the supreme has nothing to do with the width. The skate is designed to fit close to the foot, not be narrow. The retail D width is built on an E last, that means it is wider than a "normal" D width skate. People are misinterpreting the marketing spin and confusing the hell out of others

All this close to the foot stuff, or anatomical fit vs some other fit just seems like a bunch of condfusing semantics.

I guess this is what I am trying to understand: If the Supreme line is built on a retail E last, and the Vapor line is built to a retail D last, wouldn't the Supreme line be "wider"?? If you have a more narrow foot, it would seem that a Vapor skate would fit better than a Supreme, right??

[hockeymass 11]

All this close to the foot stuff, or anatomical fit vs some other fit just seems like a bunch of condfusing semantics.

I guess this is what I am trying to understand: If the Supreme line is built on a retail E last, and the Vapor line is built to a retail D last, wouldn't the Supreme line be "wider"?? If you have a more narrow foot, it would seem that a Vapor skate would fit better than a Supreme, right??

Yes, that's how it should be. Honestly, I have no idea what "close to the foot" means, because your skates should always fit close to your feet, your foot shouldn't be sliding around in the boot. I know that Supremes have a differently molded ankle lock, maybe that's what they're talking about. Supremes are basically all around bigger (wider and deeper) than Vapors, as far as I understand it.

[mojo122 538]

http://imageshack.us...comparison.jpg/

What do I do it I want explosive power and dynamic speed? I'd throw pure control in but don't want to come across as being greedy.

[talkintothemike 4]

Yes, that's how it should be. Honestly, I have no idea what "close to the foot" means, because your skates should always fit close to your feet, your foot shouldn't be sliding around in the boot. I know that Supremes have a differently molded ankle lock, maybe that's what they're talking about. Supremes are basically all around bigger (wider and deeper) than Vapors, as far as I understand it.

Thanks. This makes sense and matchs what my 2 kids have said. Over the last 2-3 years their feet have grown in length as well as width. They both wore Vapors comfortably up until this last pair. It became obvious that the Vapors were no longer wide enough,or deep enough. (Failed the pencil test with flying colors.) Both kids went to Supremes and problems solved. (Although my son, who is older and the better skater, did complain that Supremes put him "back on my heels". Took some advice from MSH and bought yellow Superfeet. Again, problem solved.

[hockeymass 11]

What do I do it I want explosive power and dynamic speed? I'd throw pure control in but don't want to come across as being greedy.

I love Bauer but the idea of having different skate lines for different "styles" makes no sense, nor does the idea that explosive power, dynamic speed, and pure control are mutually exclusive concepts. I know what they're going for, but it really just confuses the inexperienced and amuses the knowledgable.

[IniNew 53]

I love Bauer but the idea of having different skate lines for different "styles" makes no sense, nor does the idea that explosive power, dynamic speed, and pure control are mutually exclusive concepts. I know what they're going for, but it really just confuses the inexperienced and amuses the knowledgable.

It's not for you. What it is for is the 12-13-14 year old that wants a "powerful skating" stride or "unmatched agility" on the ice. It's marketing. Telling little Jimmy that the supreme skate will only fit if he has wide, voluminous feet doesn't sound nearly as cool.

[hockeymass 11]

It's not for you. What it is for is the 12-13-14 year old that wants a "powerful skating" stride or "unmatched agility" on the ice. It's marketing. Telling little Jimmy that the supreme skate will only fit if he has wide, voluminous feet doesn't sound nearly as cool.

I know it's not for me. But a 12 year old shoehorning his clompers into a Vapor so that he can have unmatched agility and dynamic speed isn't beneficial to anyone. It would be nice if they focused some of their marketing efforts on educating customers on skate fitting and the importance of buying the skate that fits, not the one with the coolest catchphrases.

[IniNew 53]

It would be nice if commercials were required to be an average volume instead of matched with the highest volume represented by the program, but alas, that doesn't sell skates.

And to be completely fair. There are slight nuances of the skates that make sense with the marketing. For instance, the Vapor boot is cut a bit lower, and forward compared to the Supreme. This will lead to being on your toes more, and as a result, slightly quicker starts. Is it enough to base a skate decision on? No, not even a bit. Especially when all it takes is a small hell lift to achieve the same effect on another skate.

[hockeymass 11]

It would be nice if commercials were required to be an average volume instead of matched with the highest volume represented by the program, but alas, that doesn't sell skates.

And to be completely fair. There are slight nuances of the skates that make sense with the marketing. For instance, the Vapor boot is cut a bit lower, and forward compared to the Supreme. This will lead to being on your toes more, and as a result, slightly quicker starts. Is it enough to base a skate decision on? No, not even a bit. Especially when all it takes is a small hell lift to achieve the same effect on another skate.

My point is that with most other products (sticks, non-hockey stuff, etc.) marketing is harmless. A kid trying to cram his foot in a skate that doesn't fit him because the sign said it was made for quick cuts and neither he or his mom know any better is HARMFUL. It can cause injuries.

With most marketing, at worst it's meaningless. With skate marketing, at worst it's harmful and injurious to the skater and to the game (it's not in hockey's best interest to have kids quitting because their skates hurt, and I've seen it happen).

I'm not so naive as to believe that marketing should be 100% accurate and truthful. But I fail to see how making up ultimately arbitrary attributes that have nothing to do with what should be the primary purchasing consideration when it comes to skates has any sort of beneficial effect for anyone. What good does it do Bauer if the kid never buys another pair of skates, or never buys another pair of Bauers, or returns the skates?

I think Bauer is a great company, but I think this marketing tack is ridiculous and they clearly seem committed to it since they're using the same kind of useless characterizations for the Nexus.

[IniNew 53]

If you cannot see the beneficial effect of the marketing you are not looking in the right places. No other manufacture markets their skates this way.

[hockeymass 11]

If you cannot see the beneficial effect of the marketing you are not looking in the right places. No other manufacture markets their skates this way.

I don't see the correlation between those two statements. And likewise, if you can't see how it's harmful, then I don't know what to tell you.

[IniNew 53]

The beneficial effect of this marketing is it lines Bauers pocket's with cash. The correlation between the two statements is that because Bauer is the only brand that markets this way they get buyers based solely on the idea that it's going to help them skate a specific way.

I've never stated this is a good or bad thing, it is what it is, and we can only hope the the sales staff in the stores that are fitting kids are competent enough to guide the buyers in the proper direction at this point.

[hockeymass 11]

The beneficial effect of this marketing is it lines Bauers pocket's with cash. The correlation between the two statements is that because Bauer is the only brand that markets this way they get buyers based solely on the idea that it's going to help them skate a specific way.

I've never stated this is a good or bad thing, it is what it is, and we can only hope the the sales staff in the stores that are fitting kids are competent enough to guide the buyers in the proper direction at this point.

I still don't understand the correlation. But anyway, saying it is what it is doesn't change the fact that it's misleading and either makes selling the proper skate more difficult or ends with kids wearing skates that they shouldn't be. Not everyone understands the real differences between the three lines. And I sincerely doubt that saying the Supreme line gives you explosive speed is lining Bauer's pockets with cash.

All I'm saying is it's a ridiculous, misleading marketing tactic. There are plenty of real differences between the skates that are actually meaningful.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

It's all good. That was just my best JR impersonation. LOL

(Oh crap. Am I gonna get banned?)

huh?

[LeMagnifique66 0]

huh?

I was accused of being "grumpy". It has been noted a time or two by a member or two that you are sometimes "grumpy". So, I figured I would make a tongue-in-cheek comment. (It was all to be in good fun.) But, now it's just more like a foot-in-mouth comment.

==== Break ====

Wow, I really didn't think there would be a whole page devoted to Bauer fit stemming from a single comment.

My Take:

Again, the Supreme boot/quarter is physically wider than Vapor being literally built on a wider last. (To me, Vapor also has a bit more shallow instep/depth than Supreme.) It's really the padding, if you will, inside the boots that differs most. The Supreme is more "anatomical". This simply means it attempts to more closely mimic the actual contours of a human foot/ankle. If you look inside, or even from the outside, you can clearly see deeper "dents" for the ankle bones to seat inside of a Supreme boot, for example. For ME, I prefer the Supreme "contoured" feel (again, especially above the ankle bones as my legs are thin there) even though I do not have a wide foot. Now, with the use of Alive/Curv on the Vapor APX quarters, it, too, has a more "anatomical" fit than previous Vapor models. (Still not as pronounced as the Supreme. But, you can definitely see it if you compare an APX to an X:60 or 7.0.) This characteristic is really the main reason I was belaboring which to go with. They did NOT "fit the same". However, each had attributes that would have worked well with MY feet. (If I could get the narrower and shallower Vapor forefoot with the heel pocket and extra padding above the ankle swells of the Supreme, I'd be set.)

If I were to try to sum it up in a single sentence, I would say that Vapor attempts to "squeeze" the foot while Supreme attempts to "hug" the foot. (If/when Vapor squeezes to the point of discomfort... It's simply not the skate for you!) It's all as clear as mud, right?

==== Break ====

Anyway... Thanks again for the real-world SKATE WEIGHTS. I found it helpful. lol