Is So-And-So A Hall Of Famer? The Water Cooler Thread

[Hills 713]

Again, just because the centers are supposed to be back and helping out doesn't mean wingers aren't. When Toews was injured he watched Hossa and stated he was amazed at how he went from behind the opposition red line and got back and broke up a play. When Hossa is on the ice he is doing just as much defensively as Toews is.

My whole point was that he has a defensive aspect to his game that not many people are taken into account. With his points and his defensive skills he should be a lock.

[chippa13 1844]

I never said the wingers didn't help. I'm just telling you that the centers are doing a lot more of the defensive work, by design, and that is why they get more attention when they are excellent defensively and also help their team at the other end.

[Chadd 916]

Every team uses a system with F1, F2, F3 for defensive purposes, not C, LW, RW.

[chippa13 1844]

On the initial backcheck but things work out as play continues and players hand people off and switch off assignments.

[fcalog 58]

On defense, it’s not necessarily the center who goes down low, as many think. It’s supposed to be whoever is back in the d-zone first, F1. If the natural center is covering for a winger who was F1, they can switch whenever they read it. Chadd is right no one patrols up and down the ice in a corridor any more. Right wing, left wing, or center they are all forwards. It's all about rotations.

[chippa13 1844]

And you'll see how players hand off and switch as part of those rotations with the center being down low the majority of the time. We all get F1-F2-F3 but they still migrate to natural positions once play settles out and switches can be made.

[flip12 715]

Centers have a lot more defensive responsibility so it makes sense that they have dominated the Selke award.

Hossa will have to put up a lot more points to make his case but I guess if Mike Gartner can make it in then Hossa has an outside chance.

No matter when he played, just reading Gartner's stats up to the second cell... Games: 1,432 Goals: 708 ... that's it. You just cannot have over 700-goals (6th-place all-time!!) and not be in the Hall of Fame.

[chippa13 1844]

Gartner was a very good player who benefited from playing in the live puck era and remaining relatively healthy. Most hockey folks don't include him in the conversation of great goal scorers. He never won any hardware and was never named to the post-season all star team.

[Jason Harris 31]

This is going back from a couple of years ago, but Gartner also was one of only two players from the top 30 who had more goals than assists. In a game that gives assists to players who start a breakout from behind their goal line, it's actually difficult to not have more assists.

[flip12 715]

It was the live puck era ("No matter when he played..."), but Washington was nothing compared to the power houses that dominated the 80's. As a right winger not named Bossy or Kurri at that time, it was hard to secure either of those first- or second-team slots. Neely was the only other one with more than one selection to either team (and both of his were 2nd team).

Anyone in the top 10 in any scoring category who isn't considered "one of the greats" at doing that is underrated, I'd say. Not having his own individual hardware, not having those more prestigious all-star selections, not being considered one of the best, probably has to do with the fact that he never finished the season with a championship, which is just to say, he's neglected because he wasn't on those great teams. Even if you look at the less-favorable-for-Gartner goals-per-game, he's 24th, just behind LaFleur and tied with Ciccarelli, who also had more goals than assists, though not by as wide a margin as Gartner. Then if you consider that and look back at the fact that he played on relatively lousy teams, imagine what his goal totals would have been in the live puck era with a fully-tooled powerhouse offense.

Also, Gartner was a first-ballot inductee...kind of hard to make the case that he's a border-line Hall of Famer if the official organization that designates that clearly thinks he's good enough to not even make wait a few extra years. It could just mean that their standards don't align with one's own in that case.

[Jason Harris 31]

lso, Gartner was a first-ballot inductee...kind of hard to make the case that he's a border-line Hall of Famer if the official organization that designates that clearly thinks he's good enough to not even make wait a few extra years. It could just mean that their standards don't align with one's own in that case.

But if the Hall has discussed his candidacy since his first year of eligibility, yet still hasn't elected him twelve years later, then it means that they also think he's a border-line HOFer. Which doesn't mean he won't get in, but would probably only do so during a year that has weaker candidates.

[flip12 715]

But if the Hall has discussed his candidacy since his first year of eligibility, yet still hasn't elected him twelve years later, then it means that they also think he's a border-line HOFer. Which doesn't mean he won't get in, but would probably only do so during a year that has weaker candidates.

Mike Gartner? He was inducted in 2001, the first year he was eligible following the standard 3-year waiting period.

[Jason Harris 31]

Oh, that's too funny!

Sorry, man, I didn't realize he was inducted a decade ago and thought people were arguing whether he should be in. Which is why I didn't understand your comment about the Hall disagreeing with us.....

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

Note sure if these were said already, but:

-Paul Kariya: to me borderline, but very interesting to read in Sean Pronger's book that a lot of people felt he was similar to Gretzky in his hockey sense/vision. Maybe more of a lock if he played on better teams?

-Eric Lindros: yes (utterly dominant when healthy)

-Martin St. Louis: borderline to yes

-Brad Richards: borderline to no

-Doug Weight: borderline to yes

-Phil Housley: yes (I think he was overlooked cause he played for small market teams and was generally a "quiet" player)

[chippa13 1844]

With two Art Ross, a Pearson, a Hart, and a Cup I'd say that St. Louis is going in.

Kariya is a tough call, what could he have done if he had stayed healthy? The hockey sense comparisons to Gretzky were there when he left Maine and he had the best backhand in the game, once even betting the team trainer that he would score so many backhand goals in a given season. His freshman year at Maine was nothing short of legend. He just wasn't able to do enough at the NHL level, in my opinion, although his international resume isn't too shabby.

Lindros will get Neely treatment and will probably squeak his way in at some point.

Weight and Housley are both borderlines and I think Richards is a no.

[Machinehead2k5 32]

If you think Weight is bordline/yes, then Kariya has to be up there as well. Kariya was the reason hockey stayed popular in the So Cal area after Gretzky left. You can't fault Kariya for being drafted by an expansion team (Ducks) and then playing in Nashville in their earlier years as well with 1 season in COL and 2 in STL.

Kariya PPG: 1.0pt/gm

402g 587a 989pts 989gms (39pts in 46 playoff games)

2 - Lady Byngs

7 - All Star Games

Weight PPG: .83pt/gm

278g 755a 1033pts 1238gms (72pts in 97 playoff games)

1 - Stanley Cup

1 - Clancy Award

4 - All Star Games

[chippa13 1844]

I'm not sure if Weight is a yes or no, kind of what borderline means.

[Jason Harris 31]

What about David Pasternak?

No? Too early?

[IPv6Freely 2094]

What about David Pasternak?

No? Too early?

Who?

[chippa13 1844]

Bruins rookie, he was making a joke since Pastrnak had 4 goals in his last 2 games.

[Jason Harris 31]

Martin St. Louis just retired with 1033 points in 1134 games, good for 70th all time. I believe I said a couple of years ago that I thought he was just below the HOF threshold, but I'm changing my tune. He has a few pieces of hardware -- Art Ross, Hart, Lady Byng, Cup -- plus was considered a leader.

I now think he'll get in.

[rawkstar 45]

Plus St Louis did all that while being 4 feet tall or whatever ;) Honestly the guy was just a huge inspiration to anyone who was two heads shorter than most NHLers even with skates on. He was living proof that you can play in the nhl and you can be a star even if you're not 6'3 200lbs. Beyond the points and the awards you have to look at how influential some players have been. You know I think without Paul Kariya and Martin St Louis there wouldn't have been a Tyler Johnson, he probably never would have been given a chance to show what he can do and probably wouldn't think he could play in the NHL. Those guys are an inspiration to a lot of people who don't fit the prototypical mold of your every day nhler.

[chippa13 1844]

Well, there was that Theoren Fleury guy who had a pretty good career, too. Interesting to note that St. Louis got his professional start in the Flames organization.

[flip12 715]

Brian Rafalski could have been a hall-of-famer had he not been shunned out of college due to his size. The little guys get no respect.

[Chadd 916]

Interesting article about Sergei Zubov on ESPN.COM

I would probably be inclined to put him in.