Ice Hockey - Possible to align Graf holders/blades like the MLX skates

[smu 29]

Over-Pronation and moving the holders medially by 1/8" or more, to put my center of gravity directly over my blades where they should be.

Read on I believe this can be fixed using the Graf skate!

I am a reasonably good skater with foot issues. Over the past 3 years I have come along way learning about skate alignment and pronation.

Knowing now that my skating problems are caused by over pronation it can be reasonably fixed using wedges between the holder and the boot or orthotics.

The best method though is through skate alignment, something that is done all the time in the higher end figure skating world.

So far I have not yet gone to the skate alignment procedure as the wedges or orthotics have given me back about 70% of my skating ability

Initially I did a lot of web research on over-pronation and what can be done to help get my skating back to some degree, knowing that it was my foot not the skate that was the issue.

I did come across the idea of a 'skate alignment' that the figure skaters do, if needed, instead of wedges or orthotics. They place the blades on their skates so that your center of gravity is directly over the blade giving the best possible control of the edges of the skates.

Then, to my surprise, I come across an article about the recent MLX skate that had been on the market about 2 years ago. This sate allowed their blade, after loosing the holder screws, to be easily moved on the out-sole and placed under the player's center of gravity. This literally fixes the over-pronation issue completely. This movement was only a minor amount laterally, 1/8"-1/4". The MLX skate had great reviews.

Unfortunately, Easton bought the rights to this product and for some reason did not incorporate the desirable, easily moveable holder. Although many of us don't know, we could be a better skater if our skates were aligned just a little better. I my case, I needed a lot!

I am tired of playing with wedges or stuffing my orthotics into my skates and would love to have my blades aligned and enjoy hockey a my 100% once again. The problem is that living in Halifax, Nova Scotia my options are slim to none getting a fitter to have this procedure done. Through a lot of searching I did locate one skate sharpener that has done this before.

However, I wonder if I can do the holder movement using the Graf holders that use posts and screws for their holders. If I were to elongate the acre holes this would allow me to shift the blades (in my case to the inside stating with 1/8" and work from there.

The catch is, will I be compromising my holders by using my Dremel and making slots where the holes once were? If I am careful, I don't think so.

Would any expert please comment on this concept I propose to do rather than have new Graf or any other skate drilled with new holes and the old holes filled with epoxy?

Thanks very much for listening.

Alan

[romdj 26]

At least graf holders are being attached with screws instead of rivets which is good, however, truth is, I haven't had satisfactory answers yet concerning your issue (same as mine).

I know that in my team majority of guys use Seba skates which imo uses a better chassis mounting system and play around with alignment for a while until they find a point where they feel performant & Comfortable.

but this is not helpful.

I'd ask you LHS to do it.

As I see it, you either have the choice between

buying new holders

drilling through the outsole

Drilling through the holders.

Are you confident on where you want to place the holder?

[smcgreg 81]

Ironic you should bring this up now. I have a similar issue where one of my feet is always misaligned, and results in a "pronation" regardless of which skate I use. I have fixed it for the most part using Stable 26 socks that "push" the heel laterally enough to reduce the problem, but not totally eliminate it. Still, I would like to have a properly aligned skate/foot without a stop gap fix. I say ironic because I almost got a pair of NOS MLXs just last week and that was one of the things that interested me (the adjustable alignment). Alas, I lost out on them and went ahead and got a pair of Makos. I was hoping the fantastic fit might alleviate the issue, but nope, it's still there. So, I'm paying attention to this thread to see what others come up with.

In the interim, if you don't find a fix, you might want to try the Stable 26 socks as I did. They help A LOT. Unfortunately, Optimus Reim posted the other day that they are out of business or, at least, not selling them anymore. Alternatively, and I have thought of this, you could probably have person that sews, like an alteration shop, fix up a sock with the same approach. If Stable is actually gone, I will likely need to do this myself down the road.

Good luck and I'll be following.

Steve

[smu 29]

Since this was my first post I did not realize that I had a reply!

And, thanks for the reply!

What is meant by - 'I'd ask you LHS to do it." If this is a dealer then it is the distance factor and a distance fitting that would be less than optimal.

On my old skates I could once again purchase a new blade and not screw with it like I did last year. I had it rockered a bit and was feelin pretty good with it until I pushed the rocker too far, losing balance etc.

My boots soles are getting quite beat up with the number of times that the holders have been off for shimming etc.

I would hate to drill through new oursoles that is what brings me to the Graf skate since the MLX no longer exists.

I have been to my "expert" in the alignment procedure and was advised not widening the Graf holes for fear of producing cracks in the holders that will eventulally fail.

These holders are like nylon and it would seem to me that if I am careful making the holes, say just 1/8" wider there should not seem to be much of a chance to ruin the holders.

I am nor expert on this, but have seen the rivets crush the hell out of my old holders and they never split!

Can anyone expound uxpound upon working on the holes?

Thanks - Alan

[smu 29]

Steve,

I feel there are far more people out ther like us that need an alignment fix, but the dealers and fitters seem to know nothing about this aspect,they just know how to fit if your lucky.

I have tried shims (laterally) and orthotics that help to a degree, but this time I want a proper fix - the blade alignment. I have even tried adding things to my orthotics medially, because the fix is now inside of the boot and I still could not get to where I want to.

I have to find out if my Dremel enlargement will affect the holder, I don't see why such a small cut will adversley effect i.

I could almost do the alignment myself if this were the case!

If the Graf holder will work, I will tell my guy that that is the way I want to go, not redrill the Graf in particular when it has its own posts and screws.

Thanks - Alan

[smcgreg 81]

Steve,

I feel there are far more people out ther like us that need an alignment fix, but the dealers and fitters seem to know nothing about this aspect,they just know how to fit if your lucky.

I have tried shims (laterally) and orthotics that help to a degree, but this time I want a proper fix - the blade alignment. I have even tried adding things to my orthotics medially, because the fix is now inside of the boot and I still could not get to where I want to.

I have to find out if my Dremel enlargement will affect the holder, I don't see why such a small cut will adversley effect i.

I could almost do the alignment myself if this were the case!

If the Graf holder will work, I will tell my guy that that is the way I want to go, not redrill the Graf in particular when it has its own posts and screws.

Thanks - Alan

I agree that there are likely more out there. What about figure skating? I see you're in Canada, so, maybe some resources there? Considering how important edge work is in that sport, I figured I would be able to find somebody in the field that could do blade alignment. They indicated they couldn't do it on hockey skates. They seemed knowledgeable about it though. If there are any figure skating repair places in your area, you might have some luck.

[smu 29]

Thanks for the reply, I live in Eastern Canada - Nova Scotia - and a couple of miles from Sidney Crosbie's home!

To get answers around my area was hell, from the Figure Skating Association, physiotherapists, orthopediac surgeons and university hockey coaches. All of them really new nothing about the alignment procedures. You would thing that some of their players may have needed help! I did get the orthotics suggestion, though.

Through extensive research and luck on the web, I finall came across one guy that was affiliated with a national chain that supposedly can move blades to suit the skater. This took me over 3 years to diagnose my problem that it was not the skate, but my foot and to finally find someone close that seems to have done alignments before, I hope.

As I have said I wish I had of known about the MLX skate (before Easton bought them out) that allowed for the movement laterrly of the holder and quite easily.

I also wish I could get a definitive answer with regards to my Grafs, that there is no issue with making small slots in new Graf holders so I can accomplish the same idea that the MLX skate had. If I can do this I will be all set!

It is a shame that Easaton did not incorporate the MLX moveable holder into their new skate, it would have helped many people like me. Perhaps, as well, those with less of a problem, but fight through the issue without ever living up to their potential because of a mis-alignment. I am learning of my problems late in life. Where is the help at most retailer levels other than just fitting for size. Many know nothing about alingment/balance, contouring or the importance of having even edges after a skate sharpening.

[steelnation248 101]

You could try contacting MLX. Last I heard, they still sell skates if they have them in stock, if you want to try the skate as a whole. However, you can also buy parts for the skates if you have them. I asked about a few different parts for my skates and they had most of the ones I asked about in stock. They might be able to sell you the holders if they have any extra.

I have the email of someone but I will have to get it after work and I can PM you it.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

So when it comes to blade alignment... when I stand on my skates, it FEELS like the blade is across my instep and big toe, not in the middle of my skate. And like my feet are pointing inwards (the opposite of how little kids look on skates - but not nearly that extreme). Is that pronation causing these feelings? It's something I've never really paid attention to, but noticed it greatly the last time I skated.

[smu 29]

Thanks,

I will wait for your email, since I am new I assume my email address is on this site somewhere.

Alan

[steelnation248 101]

Thanks,

I will wait for your email, since I am new I assume my email address is on this site somewhere.

Alan

I actually was able to get it quicker, so I PMed it to you.

If you're on the desktop version of the site, look for a little red box with a one in it to appear in the upper right hand corner over what looks like to be an email/letter icon.

[smu 29]

QUOTE "So when it comes to blade alignment... when I stand on my skates, it FEELS like the blade is across my instep and big toe, not in the middle of my skate. And like my feet are pointing inwards (the opposite of how little kids look on skates - but not nearly that extreme). Is that pronation causing these feelings? It's something I've never really paid attention to, but noticed it greatly the last time I skated."

----------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen on the web that the proper alignment, for those that do not have a pronation problem, should have a skate line that goes from the center of your heel in the back of the skate to between your big toe and the one next to it. Your blade if everything is working right should be on this line.

In your case, because of the over-pronation and inward pull of your arch takes you from this balanced position thus, you find it hard to skate, balance or even to pass the puck. To rectify this we turn to wedging the holders or trying a fix the problem with orthotics.

What should be done is a blade/holder alignment. It is difficult to get a proper alignment done in my area, but you may have better luck.

Graf had a nice on-line page a couple of years ago to show if you over-pronate or supinate.

It went like this; put your shorts and skates on and stand shoulder width apart with feet flat on the floor. Have someone stand behind you to see where your Achilles tendon guard went up the back of the blade. If it followed your calf you would not appear to be pronating, but if your tendon guards or guards were turned inwards past your calf you were pronating. Also you would notice that your skates at the blade level were turned in as well. The same can be said for supinating, but it would be in the opposite diretion. Another trick is to loosen the skates and bend your knees until exactly over your toes and see where the tendon guards appear, againg from the rear - very similar.

Correctly made skates that are dead on suit about 10% of the population perfectly. As I understand it only about 20% supinate whereas 70% over-pronate and my theory is that it all works on a Bell Curve where a few are perfect, some are close and get by then some like me eith real problems.

The bell curve is a fairly reliable formula so I would think that there are a lot of us out there struggling with our skating and making our skates match our inadequacies making the skates control us rather than we control the skates.

Hope this helps. - Alan

[Vet88 674]

For those of you that want to know more about this, the following article is about the best I have ever come across that explains it well.

http://www.ladyinredcreations.com/Ankles_Down.htm

I went to purchase MLX skates and on the day I placed the order they announced the buy out and stopped making skates, my size was not in stock so I missed out. I now have some G3 ultras and I will be doing as you suggest, using a dremel to widen the holes in the holder, back filling the holes with epoxy then reattaching them until I get my feet balanced. If I feel I can't get any more lateral shift out of the holder then I will consider working on the boot and using the same procedure. For most of us, you only need to move the blade a small amount and these tiny shifts do make a huge difference.

[smu 29]

For those of you that want to know more about this, the following article is about the best I have ever come across that explains it well.

http://www.ladyinredcreations.com/Ankles_Down.htm

I went to purchase MLX skates and on the day I placed the order they announced the buy out and stopped making skates, my size was not in stock so I missed out. I now have some G3 ultras and I will be doing as you suggest, using a dremel to widen the holes in the holder, back filling the holes with epoxy then reattaching them until I get my feet balanced. If I feel I can't get any more lateral shift out of the holder then I will consider working on the boot and using the same procedure. For most of us, you only need to move the blade a small amount and these tiny shifts do make a huge difference.

Thanks, I have this and other good websites. I am gld you posted it though! After all my searching it was bound to turn up.

Please don't do anything to your Graf holders from what I said until we find out for sure if it is the right thing to do. It was just my own idea and felt - why not?

I have had few people tell me no, but I am still not convinced that I can't do it, but would like to hear more answers first.

BTW, if you did stretch the holes there would be no need to back fill. The MLX was left wide open. Once tightned the holders won't move.

Alan

[Vet88 674]

The idea of back filling the holes was to prevent any slippage, regardless of how tight the screws were done up. I've lived with the problem for a few years and have mulled over it for ages, hence the purchase of Graf skates even though I love the SE16's I am currently in. I've been planning to do this for a while now so it's not a new idea but I will keep an eye on this thread to see if anyone comes up with another suggestion.

[Vet88 674]

Another idea for solving this, although quite hit and miss and pita for sales staff to do, is to find the skate you like and then start going thru every box the LHS has in stock. Look for the ones that have the holders mounted as close to the inside of the boot as possible (assuming you pronate).

I don't know how most skates have the mounting holes drilled but I have seen huge differences in the alignment of boots / holders, both left and right of center. In my Grafs, the right skate is perfect for me (the holder is mounted really close to the inside of the boot). The left skate is mounted more to the middle and this needs to be adjusted slightly. Sadly I got these online a while ago and didn't put this theory into practice but I have browsed thru the stock at a local LHS and seen big differences in the way holders are mounted (hence the idea).

[smu 29]

The idea of back filling the holes was to prevent any slippage, regardless of how tight the screws were done up. I've lived with the problem for a few years and have mulled over it for ages, hence the purchase of Graf skates even though I love the SE16's I am currently in. I've been planning to do this for a while now so it's not a new idea but I will keep an eye on this thread to see if anyone comes up with another suggestion.

Great to hear that you were thinking about this as well. My hockey has just finished so I have some time before I have to have something done.

It would appear that if over-pronation is the problem we can't miss by sliding our blades in medially. We know our feet are out of wack so any movement of the holders towards the middle can only help us.

I am going to call my fitter/sharpener and meet with him again and try and reason with him as to why he feels that I may damage the holder. I have two people definitely telling me I should not touch the holders.

I am looking at the new G35 Graf formally a 700 model, but now have 3 flex ratings. For my 135 lb I think I will go with the lite model. They are not available until May. Luckily I take a junior size, that will save me a few dollars.

Let's keep in touch, I will pm you my address for the purpose of sharing our information, hope you don't mind.

Alan

Another idea for solving this, although quite hit and miss and pita for sales staff to do, is to find the skate you like and then start going thru every box the LHS has in stock. Look for the ones that have the holders mounted as close to the inside of the boot as possible (assuming you pronate).

I don't know how most skates have the mounting holes drilled but I have seen huge differences in the alignment of boots / holders, both left and right of center. In my Grafs, the right skate is perfect for me (the holder is mounted really close to the inside of the boot). The left skate is mounted more to the middle and this needs to be adjusted slightly. Sadly I got these online a while ago and didn't put this theory into practice but I have browsed thru the stock at a local LHS and seen big differences in the way holders are mounted (hence the idea).

Just seeing this now, I have had the situation the holders have been placed wrongly on the boot. Most time I caught these other I didn't and maybe it helped! I have sent a pm.

Alan

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Without reading every response on this thread.

1. Yes Stable 26 is still around and changes are being made but I am sure if you contact them they can put you in touch with someone with product such as myself.

2. Blade alignment can easily be done on any skate but in some cases holes may need to be filled with an epoxy before remounting. On this any further discussion please pm.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

You have some in stock?<br /><br />I ordered from amazon and a week after they were supposed to arrive, amazons fraud dept emailed me to let me know they reversed the transaction. They're no longer on amazon and I can't find them anywhere else online.<br /><br />Anyway, in regard to my previous post - I'm pretty sure I under-pronate. I walk on the outside of my feet. Can shims on one side correct this or should I have the holders moved outward? If I do anything that is.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I hate shims. It is much easier for me to re-align. And have had more success with the players I have worked with.

[smu 29]

You have some in stock?<br /><br />I ordered from amazon and a week after they were supposed to arrive, amazons fraud dept emailed me to let me know they reversed the transaction. They're no longer on amazon and I can't find them anywhere else online.<br /><br />Anyway, in regard to my previous post - I'm pretty sure I under-pronate. I walk on the outside of my feet. Can shims on one side correct this or should I have the holders moved outward? If I do anything that is.

Read my earlier post to see if you over-pronate (70% over-pronate - does your skate roll inward, pronation, our miss placed weight, is forcing the blade that way) and if so, shims would go on the outer, lateral, side of the boot between the sole and the holder (your blade will look very crazy, but it works).

If you use anything inside of the boot it needs to go on the inside or medial edge, like the arch in the ach support with the orthotics.

For me, both the shims and orthotics worked but not to my staisfaction, that's why I want a proper fix this time wirh a blade alignment. In this case the holder is shifted just a bit medially (1/8" or so) towards the inside of your body, bringing your weight from your unbalanced foot, due to the pronation, over the blade for proper center of gravity.

[smcgreg 81]

Read my earlier post to see if you over-pronate (70% over-pronate - does your skate roll inward, pronation, our miss placed weight, is forcing the blade that way) and if so, shims would go on the outer, lateral, side of the boot between the sole and the holder (your blade will look very crazy, but it works).

If you use anything inside of the boot it needs to go on the inside or medial edge, like the arch in the ach support with the orthotics.

For me, both the shims and orthotics worked but not to my staisfaction, that's why I want a proper fix this time wirh a blade alignment. In this case the holder is shifted just a bit medially (1/8" or so) towards the inside of your body, bringing your weight from your unbalanced foot, due to the pronation, over the blade for proper center of gravity.

To continue this general line of discussion....

For me, personally, I only "pronate" or roll inward on my right foot. I skated last night and even in my Makos with Stable 26 socks, it was still there to some extent. Oldtrainerguy in TO indicates he can do blade alignments fairly easily. I was going to approach my local skate guy about it but given some of the recent events I address in the contour/profile thread, I am leery now. So, I'm going to hold off doing it with him for now.

My son on the other hand has very flat feet and he overpronated badly on both feet. I see posts from people who have used Superfeet with flat feet before and I don't know how this can work for them. I tried superfeet for him and it just made things worse. It "pushed" the blade further inside and made his pronation even more pronounced. So, I took them out and let things go for a while. He seems to have corrected it himself for the most part. I've heard this from some others as well, that for those who have "weak ankles" with good fitting skates, they can still skate properly. He is only 8 and is still developing as a skater, and will be due for a new pair of skates soon. So, it will be interesting to see how things work when that happens. On this point though, I guess I don't understand how something like a superfeet, high arched orthotic can work for an over pronator. In general, you want to move the foot to the outside, or raise the outside (such as with a shim).

I can see how one might think the high arch would raise the flat arch and prevent it from "rolling over", but this didn't work for him and, as I said, just "pushed" the medial side of the skate down....badly. So, in your case, you say orthotics with a post on the medial side worked. Do you have flat feet?

[AfftonDad 88]

Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't take out the rivets on my son's EQ-50s and replace them with some kind of T-bolt setup so that they would end up being removable like Grafs? I would like to experiment with some shims on my son's skates for his pronation but I don't want to have to re-rivet on each trial. If the answer is yes, that would be do-able, does anyone have any suggestions on a source of such hardware?

BTW... on the topic of the original post... around three or four years ago a Graf sales rep told me that they were going to start using slotted holders (and that in fact some of their models were already being made with them), but I guess he was in error or that it never happened.

[smu 29]

To continue this general line of discussion....

On this point though, I guess I don't understand how something like a superfeet, high arched orthotic can work for an over pronator. In general, you want to move the foot to the outside, or raise the outside (such as with a shim).

I can see how one might think the high arch would raise the flat arch and prevent it from "rolling over", but this didn't work for him and, as I said, just "pushed" the medial side of the skate down....badly. So, in your case, you say orthotics with a post on the medial side worked. Do you have flat feet?

I can't say too much for your son, but from the other sites I have visited including the Chiropractic sites your son may take awhile for his feet to fully develop, which may be happening. I am told there is no such thing as week ankles, but fallen arches - yes and now we no how to deal with that issue. With respect to what I said I do not always make it clear.

There are 3 ways to overcome over-pronation. The first and best way as far as I can see is have a blade alignment that will put your center of gravity directly over the blade and this effectively eliminates any pronation issue because your weight is now where it should be.

The next way is to put a wedge between your holder and the boot, back and front on the lateral or outside side of the boot. This will make the blade look cockeyed (mine was 3mm& was afraid to show anyone). This is contrary to what you are thinking because you are leaning inwards now. Your blade and holder from, the rear, will look as if it is sticking inward to the left (right boot), but once it is on your foot and you are standing it brings your holder up to the perpendicular position where it should be and shifting your weight to the inside.

The third way is to use orthotics that get your foot into the proper position to apply your unevenly distributed weight from pronation towards the blade and over the heel to the arch area in the skate and solves the sagging foot dilemma.

Very important things to remember for the experimenter!:

1) Inside of boot fix - If you experiment and add anything to the inside of the boot use the medial side (arch) because that is where the orthotic is and what it is already trying to do if the fir is proper.

2) Outside of boot fix - If you do anything between the holder and the boot it has to be done on the opposite side of the arch.

If this is not clear please PM me I will be glad if I can help.

Alan

[steelnation248 101]

Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't take out the rivets on my son's EQ-50s and replace them with some kind of T-bolt setup so that they would end up being removable like Grafs? I would like to experiment with some shims on my son's skates for his pronation but I don't want to have to re-rivet on each trial. If the answer is yes, that would be do-able, does anyone have any suggestions on a source of such hardware?

There's a big thread in the roller hockey section about converting ice boots for inline and they use a nut/bolt set up. Also there are directions of how to convert IIRC. Might be work a look for what you're asking.