Hockey skate fit -- leg length discrepancy, pronation, supination

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

There is no need to give out phone numbers/contact info to members.  

There's nothing in this thread that can't be discussed out in the open.

[smu 29]

11 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

I put my email and phone number.  I think vette an I are tackling your issue at the same place just in a different way .   This is playmakers.  I gave you my phone as well.      The sketch I posted here . Is a fastening system that I would use three in each side in the rear and three each side in the front  .  

 

11 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

I put my email and phone number.  I think vette an I are tackling your issue at the same place just in a different way .   This is playmakers.  I gave you my phone as well.      The sketch I posted here . Is a fastening system that I would use three in each side in the rear and three each side in the front  .  

We may well be. Vet and I have been discussing this for a few years. I still think about the MLX skate, gone before I knew about it, but I take a size 5 and MLK did not make a junior. I skated today and I have just added up the amount of posting with just a ruler. Given my holders are shifted medially 1/8" I have a nearly 1/2" posting on the inside and doing well except my heel was getting sore because of my foot raising inside the boot. But it was better although if I am not playing hockey, just skating, it is harder to tell.

I have Vet's email address, but can't remember you at all, sorry!

Alan

[Playmakersedge 58]

11 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

There is no need to give out phone numbers/contact info to members.  

There's nothing in this thread that can't be discussed out in the open.

Oh ok . Not trying to be sneaky.  Trying to describe what I mean more clear then I can write is all. 

[Playmakersedge 58]

3 hours ago, smu said:

 

We may well be. Vet and I have been discussing this for a few years. I still think about the MLX skate, gone before I knew about it, but I take a size 5 and MLK did not make a junior. I skated today and I have just added up the amount of posting with just a ruler. Given my holders are shifted medially 1/8" I have a nearly 1/2" posting on the inside and doing well except my heel was getting sore because of my foot raising inside the boot. But it was better although if I am not playing hockey, just skating, it is harder to tell.

I have Vet's email address, but can't remember you at all, sorry!

Alan

Can't fix it inside the boot . It raises the foot into a height in the boot that won't work with the engineering of the skate  . The lower you make the adjustment the less you have to move.  .       You can't just make adjustments at the heel. Because when you move the heel the front of the foot moves too .      Roll your ankle in and the outside of the ball of your foot comes up . So it's going to take a diagonal adjustment.    Two years?  

[Playmakersedge 58]

On 2/5/2018 at 4:35 AM, Vet88 said:

The retrofit is something we are looking at. 3D printing a plastic adapter that fits into an installed holder and then the steel fits into this, by use of shims and screws the steel can be moved side to side in the adapter. It has a couple of advantages, the client stays in their existing boot / holder / steel / profile / hollow setup. The adapter creates additional blade height and this makes it easier to fine tune the center balance point as the extra height allows us to see any blade lean more clearly. Once the center is determined then, depending on how much movement is required, there are a number of options to get everything set up correctly for the skater. Generally a remount of the holder will suffice.

https://goo.gl/images/ccE2qT this rig here would give you lots of adjstability 

https://goo.gl/images/k6Js4H

[Playmakersedge 58]

Can off set that so easy  .

[smu 29]

9 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

Oh ok . Not trying to be sneaky.  Trying to describe what I mean more clear then I can write is all. 

I understand that, but what are we getting at? A seemingly commercial product. If it works it works! How is the cog changed, by installing a new holder mechanism? How is the blade adjusted medialy?

i saw some commercial videos, but the only thing would be to move the thinner holde. What about my favorite Steel I use?

Thanks - Alan

[Playmakersedge 58]

20 hours ago, smu said:

I understand that, but what are we getting at? A seemingly commercial product. If it works it works! How is the cog changed, by installing a new holder mechanism? How is the blade adjusted medialy?

i saw some commercial videos, but the only thing would be to move the thinner holde. What about my favorite Steel I use?

Thanks - Alan

The holder is adjusted by turning the Jack bolt  .::::  The blade holder is removed,  3/16 holes are drilled  in to the boot four spots rear and front . Thin faced t nuts are installed in to the bottom of the boot .  Use red lock tight and screw a stud part way into each t nut .Use an appropriate machine screw on the inside of the boot into each t nut . Run another t nut on the stud and make it so the flat faces of the t nuts are facing each other  install the tuuk . Use small rubber tubing to hold on the tuuk temporary   . Double nut the end of each stud . Put the skates  on and have a friend turn the stud at the double nut at the side you want to tilt . Whe your tendon guard is straight then adjust the opposite side on the front until you feel even pressure.   Remove the double nuts and rubber tubing then install a washer a nylock nut on all studs  . Tighten everything down and go for a skate.  You see every fixture point is an independent screw Jack. This makes the chassis totally adjustable  if your issue worsens you simply loosen the nylock nut and adjust and retighten,  No figuring how much just  turn until your ankle/ foot are aligned . No more figuring dial them in standing up 

[smu 29]

2 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

The holder is adjusted by turning the Jack bolt  .::::  The blade holder is removed,  3/16 holes are drilled  in to the boot four spots rear and front . Thin faced t nuts are installed in to the bottom of the boot .  Use red lock tight and screw a stud part way into each t nut .Use an appropriate machine screw on the inside of the boot into each t nut . Run another t nut on the stud and make it so the flat faces of the t nuts are facing each other  install the tuuk . Use small rubber tubing to hold on the tuuk temporary   . Double nut the end of each stud . Put the skates  on and have a friend turn the stud at the double nut at the side you want to tilt . Whe your tendon guard is straight then adjust the opposite side on the front until you feel even pressure.   Remove the double nuts and rubber tubing then install a washer a nylock nut on all studs  . Tighten everything down and go for a skate.  You see every fixture point is an independent screw Jack. This makes the chassis totally adjustable  if your issue worsens you simply loosen the nylock nut and adjust and retighten,  No figuring how much just  turn until your ankle/ foot are aligned . No more figuring dial them in standing up 

Vet & JR (I guess)

Sounds like a good plan at first glance!

Does the holder have anything to do with or look like the one about 5 posts above? - https://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0555%2F4257%2Fproducts%2FFreestyle-on-Gyro-frame1.jpg%3Fv%3D1511200127&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fthuroshop.com%2Fcollections%2Finline-skates%2Ftransformer-ice-blades&docid=LZyvdjJmrvMffM&tbnid=3iWAmiyq08Sg0M%3A&vet=1&w=940&h=892&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim

In which case the blade stays the same but the holder shifts medially for  pronation issue. Also, I have specific profile in my fairly new LS3 steel giving me the proper forward pitch I need with my Tuuk holders.

When installing holders;

1) shouldn't the rear first rivet position be positioned directly in the mid point of the heel and the heel pocket? Then the blade/COG line follows that point to another point between the Big and 2nd toe?

2) Meaning that the holder is not just moved over a constant 1/8" like how I had mine done (I forgot to mention this to my LHS! I am slightly better pronated, but now my blade and holders may be off if my heel in it's pocket is not directly over the blade? Or, is there a difference.

Cheers - Alan

[smu 29]

3 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

The holder is adjusted by turning the Jack bolt  .::::  The blade holder is removed,  3/16 holes are drilled  in to the boot four spots rear and front . Thin faced t nuts are installed in to the bottom of the boot .  Use red lock tight and screw a stud part way into each t nut .Use an appropriate machine screw on the inside of the boot into each t nut . Run another t nut on the stud and make it so the flat faces of the t nuts are facing each other  install the tuuk . Use small rubber tubing to hold on the tuuk temporary   . Double nut the end of each stud . Put the skates  on and have a friend turn the stud at the double nut at the side you want to tilt . Whe your tendon guard is straight then adjust the opposite side on the front until you feel even pressure.   Remove the double nuts and rubber tubing then install a washer a nylock nut on all studs  . Tighten everything down and go for a skate.  You see every fixture point is an independent screw Jack. This makes the chassis totally adjustable  if your issue worsens you simply loosen the nylock nut and adjust and retighten,  No figuring how much just  turn until your ankle/ foot are aligned . No more figuring dial them in standing up 

I would like to see! Photos etc...Thanks

[Playmakersedge 58]

8 hours ago, smu said:

I would like to see! Photos etc...Thanks

It's in my brain and a quick sketch that is posted. 

[Playmakersedge 58]

10 hours ago, smu said:

Vet & JR (I guess)

Sounds like a good plan at first glance!

Does the holder have anything to do with or look like the one about 5 posts above? - https://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0555%2F4257%2Fproducts%2FFreestyle-on-Gyro-frame1.jpg%3Fv%3D1511200127&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fthuroshop.com%2Fcollections%2Finline-skates%2Ftransformer-ice-blades&docid=LZyvdjJmrvMffM&tbnid=3iWAmiyq08Sg0M%3A&vet=1&w=940&h=892&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim

In which case the blade stays the same but the holder shifts medially for  pronation issue. Also, I have specific profile in my fairly new LS3 steel giving me the proper forward pitch I need with my Tuuk holders.

When installing holders;

1) shouldn't the rear first rivet position be positioned directly in the mid point of the heel and the heel pocket? Then the blade/COG line follows that point to another point between the Big and 2nd toe?

2) Meaning that the holder is not just moved over a constant 1/8" like how I had mine done (I forgot to mention this to my LHS! I am slightly better pronated, but now my blade and holders may be off if my heel in it's pocket is not directly over the blade? Or, is there a difference.

Cheers - Alan

With the Jack bolts you are keeping the blade at relatively on cg  . The Jack bolts are doing the same job as what putting a wedge between the tuuk and the boot.  The difference is there is no ' how thick of a wedge do I need' . It' simply turning the studs .          I will draw it bigger scale for you........... also Sep thought the above roller/inline to ice skate conversion I posted to show that this also may be an option.  It would take moving the blade sideways to change where gravity puts pressure on your  foot .       I will draw my Jack bolt system again larger ..   This isn't something that exists it's something that flashed in my mind to solve your problem. 

[Playmakersedge 58]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sUKWLrtRbpLWBeKpNpglIrIP-UT34-kO/view?usp=drivesdk  This is a little larger drawing.  Again this doesn't exist  . The benefit is there is no measurement needed you turn the bolt and it spreads appart the tuuk from the boot.  All that has to be done is back off the tuuk retaining but and turn the bolt.  No shim needed and no figuring how thick shim has to be . If your situation changes you turn a bolt not make shims and try this and that folding tape and didling . Makes your task easy peasy  . 

[smu 29]

3 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sUKWLrtRbpLWBeKpNpglIrIP-UT34-kO/view?usp=drivesdk  This is a little larger drawing.  Again this doesn't exist  . The benefit is there is no measurement needed you turn the bolt and it spreads appart the tuuk from the boot.  All that has to be done is back off the tuuk retaining but and turn the bolt.  No shim needed and no figuring how thick shim has to be . If your situation changes you turn a bolt not make shims and try this and that folding tape and didling . Makes your task easy peasy  . 

Looks like it could work, but..

I am still just skating a bit and not playing hockey. With my adjustment it did not feel too bad, but it was not a game situation. Now I won't know what to do until next season as my shoulder will not be in shape for a month or so. Keep me up to date though.

Thanks - Alan

[Playmakersedge 58]

2 hours ago, smu said:

Looks like it could work, but..

I am still just skating a bit and not playing hockey. With my adjustment it did not feel too bad, but it was not a game situation. Now I won't know what to do until next season as my shoulder will not be in shape for a month or so. Keep me up to date though.

Thanks - Alan

@ Alan  , imo making your adjustment in your skates is going to raise your heel pretty high in the heel pocket and cause your heel to lift .    My thought is this is a problem:  the reason is once your heel lifts up you don't have gravity pushing on the bottom of your foot,  and this letting the ankle go back to the uncorrected position.  If you catch an edge or get hit on accident your ankle is going to be vulnerable.  Your ankle because of the role is probably vulnerable as it stands.  You got time now with no pressure or risk to try things   ... . Looking at my idea the one flaw I see in it is that the pressure isn't spread over the complete mounting surface of the tuuk.  I suppose once you find the adjustment you like; it's possible to take masking tape and and seal up three sides and poor resin in the void  ?   

[smu 29]

2 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

@ Alan  , imo making your adjustment in your skates is going to raise your heel pretty high in the heel pocket and cause your heel to lift .    My thought is this is a problem:  the reason is once your heel lifts up you don't have gravity pushing on the bottom of your foot,  and this letting the ankle go back to the uncorrected position.  If you catch an edge or get hit on accident your ankle is going to be vulnerable.  Your ankle because of the role is probably vulnerable as it stands.  You got time now with no pressure or risk to try things   ... . Looking at my idea the one flaw I see in it is that the pressure isn't spread over the complete mounting surface of the tuuk.  I suppose once you find the adjustment you like; it's possible to take masking tape and and seal up three sides and poor resin in the void  ?   

You are exactly right about the height of my heel, I have measured the inside post and it was at least 1/2" making my outside heel area sore from misplacement in the boot.  The boot could be heated again for this, but I suppose I am losing some of the boots strength to keep my ankles straight.

I could skate better with my post height, but like I said, it was not in a game situation and skating was different without a stick. It was intimidating as I have fallen so many times since I began to have this problem that I am afraid to turn and skate backwards without gear. I did skate backwards, but with great trepidation!

I felt very vulnerable as this problem has found me flat on the ice more time in the last 8 or 9 years than anytime before in my life!

It is still hard to understand your methodology, but I think I get it. I would not mind getting all my gear on and with that protection and weight I could do stops and starts in the warm ups. What is the cost, I might as well ask, but make no promises. What outsoles are harder to deal with and what do you do with those?

Cheers - Alan

[smu 29]

8 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sUKWLrtRbpLWBeKpNpglIrIP-UT34-kO/view?usp=drivesdk  This is a little larger drawing.  Again this doesn't exist  . The benefit is there is no measurement needed you turn the bolt and it spreads appart the tuuk from the boot.  All that has to be done is back off the tuuk retaining but and turn the bolt.  No shim needed and no figuring how thick shim has to be . If your situation changes you turn a bolt not make shims and try this and that folding tape and didling . Makes your task easy peasy  . 

Are you using two bolts on the lateral side for adjustment by having them go through the holder and the out-sole? I could see and adjustment on that make it as if you were adding material between the holder and the boot, but again I am not sure what exactly is being done.

Thanks - Alan

[Nickmast 1]

So the jackbolt relys on the integrity of the bolt threads to take the force and weight that is put on it?

[Playmakersedge 58]

14 hours ago, smu said:

Are you using two bolts on the lateral side for adjustment by having them go through the holder and the out-sole? I could see and adjustment on that make it as if you were adding material between the holder and the boot, but again I am not sure what exactly is being done.

Thanks - Alan

Using four Jack bolts rear and front.  Yes the adjustment is doing the same thing adding material between the blade holder and the boot  .  ::::  ok the holder and the boot are apart:  drill both the boot and the holder to accommodate the T nuts : put the bolt threw the boot ,screw the T nut on the bolt and have the T nut go threw the bottom of the boot. Use blue lock tight on that T nuts threads : clean the bolt with acetone.  Install the other T nut with the sleave pointing toward the holder . Put the holder on . Use a small  O  ring or piece of tube to keep the holder in place while you put the skate on to make the adjustment.  Make the adjustment by turning the bolt using double nuts .... It's very simple.     ..... I would use one on every hole in the heel and four on the front.     Having this many gives you  the ability to adjust that boot in all directions......  just  while your sitting with no shoes on roll your ankle like you are going on an outside edge:  the inside of your heel goes up your little toe is down.    The adjustment we are making is tilting or rolling your ankle so doing this is also going to make a change on the weight distributed to the opposing side on the forfoot . Ideally we want to make your foot distribute the weight as close to normal as possible.  So we are going to want as much adjustability as possible.  For with this system we can go in all directions.   This is the same thing we do when setting up racing cars . We actually have scales under each tire so by adjusting spring rate and pre load we can change weight distribution  ..  this process is what gave me this idea 

[Nickmast 1]

It all makes sense to me. I'm more thinking about the durability. If there is a 4 nut system on each point, it would be very durable. Could possibly add some type of snap on bushing to take up the space that is created when increasing the gap. 

[Playmakersedge 58]

16 hours ago, smu said:

You are exactly right about the height of my heel, I have measured the inside post and it was at least 1/2" making my outside heel area sore from misplacement in the boot.  The boot could be heated again for this, but I suppose I am losing some of the boots strength to keep my ankles straight.

I could skate better with my post height, but like I said, it was not in a game situation and skating was different without a stick. It was intimidating as I have fallen so many times since I began to have this problem that I am afraid to turn and skate backwards without gear. I did skate backwards, but with great trepidation!

I felt very vulnerable as this problem has found me flat on the ice more time in the last 8 or 9 years than anytime before in my life!

It is still hard to understand your methodology, but I think I get it. I would not mind getting all my gear on and with that protection and weight I could do stops and starts in the warm ups. What is the cost, I might as well ask, but make no promises. What outsoles are harder to deal with and what do you do with those?

Cheers - Alan

@ Alan. The cost for me to make up the parts and install them  ?   Just the cost of material from a hardware supply. I'm just trying to help you out.     The t nut going up threw the out sole takes care of that  

[smu 29]

15 hours ago, Playmakersedge said:

@ Alan. The cost for me to make up the parts and install them  ?   Just the cost of material from a hardware supply. I'm just trying to help you out.     The t nut going up threw the out sole takes care of that  

I am really sorry about not understanding correctly with your comments along with Vet's involvement I thought might be trying to sell a new product. I was also confused about one of your first post I believe looking for help on the pronation issue. I did not want to ask to many questions because I did not know where this was going.

I am not the brightest when it come to understanding your drawing. From what I understand this will move me over my COG and would do the job, exactly what I want. There was one person showing those floor hockey wheels that could be turned into a skate holder and that looked interesting in that the holder would be thinner than the Tuuk and fit on the Junior skate (not much room) much better. But, I still need better instructions if I am going to tackle the job you have in mind as simple as it maybe! I wait forever to start a project for fear of making a mistake, one of my biggest downfalls. I am just got the holder shifted medialy, but that was because my LHS said he could do it on my Junior boot at least the 1/8".  Looks like I need a heck of lot more movement medially if I am posting 1/2"!

Please, lete me know some more, now I am much more interested and it looks like I have lots of time before next year comes around. Oh. if I could only have body weight over my blades!

Thanks a lot for responding!

Alan

[smu 29]

On 2/2/2018 at 10:03 AM, smu said:

 

Allan,

Thanks for your help along the way here, somehow I confused Playmakersedge and you and if you have been following my posts you will see that he has something that will adjust the angle of the blades to suit one's might work with less effort, but you might have a nice idea. Did you see the other post from Playmakersedge?

Cheers - Alan

[Playmakersedge 58]

On 3/4/2018 at 8:52 PM, Nickmast said:

It all makes sense to me. I'm more thinking about the durability. If there is a 4 nut system on each point, it would be very durable. Could possibly add some type of snap on bushing to take up the space that is created when increasing the gap. 

Hi . Oh grade 8 bolts at four or six in the rear and four in the front of the holder is overkill in reality. Far stronger then how blade holders are being fastened by the factory.     What I showed in the drawing was just a visual aid to see what principal I am applying.  There is a loss of written compared to spoken word.    

           These are things I am going to fabricate.  I am not capable of writing every detail with the clarity necessary for you guys to see what's going to go between my brain and my hands .      There is no need for bushings because  the sheer load has plenty of support from the side that's low .     Also too there is going to be a mold made from masking tape with every thing in situ  once all the adjustments are made . Fiberglass resin with black pigment is pourd in .  What I see in my mind will absolutely work  . Having adjustments in both skates gives the opportunity to adjust height so the hips/ pelvis  are level. Once this is complete the skates will look like they came like that .  Lmk if you would like me to build these . I need the skates with the blade holders removed.  I'm not offering for any financial gains . Simply to help you guys out . Just materials  is all I'm expecting.      I like doing these kind of things.   

[Playmakersedge 58]

On 3/5/2018 at 1:16 PM, smu said:

I am really sorry about not understanding correctly with your comments along with Vet's involvement I thought might be trying to sell a new product. I was also confused about one of your first post I believe looking for help on the pronation issue. I did not want to ask to many questions because I did not know where this was going.

I am not the brightest when it come to understanding your drawing. From what I understand this will move me over my COG and would do the job, exactly what I want. There was one person showing those floor hockey wheels that could be turned into a skate holder and that looked interesting in that the holder would be thinner than the Tuuk and fit on the Junior skate (not much room) much better. But, I still need better instructions if I am going to tackle the job you have in mind as simple as it maybe! I wait forever to start a project for fear of making a mistake, one of my biggest downfalls. I am just got the holder shifted medialy, but that was because my LHS said he could do it on my Junior boot at least the 1/8".  Looks like I need a heck of lot more movement medially if I am posting 1/2"!

Please, lete me know some more, now I am much more interested and it looks like I have lots of time before next year comes around. Oh. if I could only have body weight over my blades!

Thanks a lot for responding!

Alan

Hi Alan,   don't worry about it.  We all have stuff we understand and that we don't.       

I am happy to make this system for you install it and send them back.  Once you get everything set the way you want ship them back to me and I will pour fiberglass resin in the gaps.  I have the entire process in my mind.  Down to blocking the resin so it doesn't flow in to the hallow blade holder  .  If your holders have any rivets still in have them removed and send me the skates and blade holders and I will make this stuff .  It' just the matter of getting them in my hands . 

 

Also the in line to ice conversion kit : I posted that . Then started doodling to visually see the dynamics.  The moving the blade either way latterly will not fix the issu.  The reason is : The move will straighten the ankle.  But we aren't just dealing with the ankle.  We are dealing with your pelvis down  .     So visually see this in your mind;  moving the blade over , when you're ankle is straight the blade will still be off center.  This causing it's own problem; making one edge very hard to find ,and making you feeling awkward in reference between left or right skate.   It will not work. 

the center of gravity is being transferred from the leg bones. The blade has to be centered in the tibia, femor  . Because that the point of force..

Both skates have to be adjustable one may just need it raised evenly to make sure your hips are level