Quick question about sharpening style, feel

[z1ggy 81]

So I got new step steel for my Mako II's recently. I had been on the stock set up for about 6 months but I just didn't like the super aggressive set up. So I ordered step steel (being toally neutral blade profile) which brought me to +2, and a FBV with the sharpening that's most equal to a 1/2 ROH. I definitely felt like I was slightly less on my toes, and that more blade was on the ice. I wasn't really a huge fan on the FBV, but I adjusted.

I needed a sharpening this week, and I didn't have time to send my runners back to No Icing. Instead, my buddy gave me a 1/2 ROH like I'd always had. For some reason now, I feel like I have less total blade on the ice, but I don't feel like I'm pitched forward much more. Is this due to the ROH that's back on there, or did he just end up shaving a bit of blade from the toe? I kind of liked the feel of having a bit more blade on the ice for stability. I got used to the slightly more "rockered" feeling if you will, but I'm really curious as to why it feels different now.

[Davetronz 109]

It's tough to say without seeing the sharpen in person. He could have done it unevenly/unbalanced or modified the profile in some way.

[z1ggy 81]

Is it really possible to modify the profile just by sharpening? Could I attempt to undo whatever was done by sending back to No Icing?

[AfftonDad 88]

Is it really possible to modify the profile just by sharpening? Could I attempt to undo whatever was done by sending back to No Icing?

The goal is to not modify the profile when simply sharpening. There are things you can do when sharpening to minimize modifying the profile and some are better at it than others. But even the best will modify the profile some (hopefully slightly) over time. If you were to send it back to No Icing (or anyone) and tell them to just sharpen them, their goal would be to not modify the (possibly messed up, in your case) profile that is now on them. So this will NOT correct or undo anything. However, you certainly can ask (and pay) No-Icing or most hockey shops to re-profile them to the profile that you would like.

Everything else being equal, I wouldn't think that simply changing the hollow could make the pitch feel different. It is possible that someone could completely muck up a profile in a single sharpening but it would have to be a pretty careless sharpener.

[jimmy 194]

The goal is to not modify the profile when simply sharpening. There are things you can do when sharpening to minimize modifying the profile and some are better at it than others. But even the best will modify the profile some (hopefully slightly) over time. If you were to send it back to No Icing (or anyone) and tell them to just sharpen them, their goal would be to not modify the (possibly messed up, in your case) profile that is now on them. So this will NOT correct or undo anything. However, you certainly can ask (and pay) No-Icing or most hockey shops to re-profile them to the profile that you would like.

Everything else being equal, I wouldn't think that simply changing the hollow could make the pitch feel different. It is possible that someone could completely muck up a profile in a single sharpening but it would have to be a pretty careless sharpener.

You'd be surprised just how many careless sharpeners are out there. Yes, one bad sharpening can alter a profile, be it the stock set up or a custom profile. Especially those who think they need to crossgrind. You wouldn't beieve how many customers I have who let me know that they had to get an 'emergency" sharpening elsewhere, and now their skates don't feel right.

"Good work aint cheap, cheap work aint good - Sailor Jerry

[z1ggy 81]

Thanks for that info guys. The guy who sharpened them for me is something I trust and has been sharpening my skates for a year or two now. I'll probably have my next sharpening done at No Icing to see if it feels any different after. If not, I may need to pay the extra money to have my runners reprofiled to neutral, because something definitely felt off and I really can't see that feeling coming from going from a FBV to ROH.

[Davetronz 109]

You'd be surprised just how many careless sharpeners are out there. Yes, one bad sharpening can alter a profile, be it the stock set up or a custom profile. Especially those who think they need to crossgrind. You wouldn't beieve how many customers I have who let me know that they had to get an 'emergency" sharpening elsewhere, and now their skates don't feel right.

"Good work aint cheap, cheap work aint good - Sailor Jerry

I often remind people of the saying:

Good...Cheap...Quick... You can only choose two. If it's good and cheap, it isn't going to be quick. If its cheap and quick, it isn't going to be good. If it's quick and good, it isn't going to be cheap.

[z1ggy 81]

Yes this is true. My buddy does them generally all three though (takes about 10 mins, is free and usually has done a good job). I've had other very good sharpenings in the past, but they cost $5. Difference is, my buddy uses more of a "free hand" style where he slides it on the wheel from the side by hand, whereas the two other very good people I had doing my skates in the past, put the boot in a machine upside down (runner facing up) and just ran the wheel right down it, which was on a lever of some type, so there was basically no way to mess up.

[Davetronz 109]

whereas the two other very good people I had doing my skates in the past, put the boot in a machine upside down (runner facing up) and just ran the wheel right down it, which was on a lever of some type, so there was basically no way to mess up.

Well, big misconception here about no way to mess them up using a radial arm / Dupliskate style.

Often these machines don't compensate for side to side adjustment, bent blades, etc.

It's common to see some pretty horrendous stuff from the top-mounted, "automated" sharpeners as well.

[z1ggy 81]

What's the preferred or "best" method then? Surely, a person doing it by hand can't really correct for any small bends in runner/holder, etc?

[Davetronz 109]

What's the preferred or "best" method then? Surely, a person doing it by hand can't really correct for any small bends in runner/holder, etc?

If they're trained properly, straighten or square the blade and know what they're doing, yes, someone doing it by hand can definitely correct for any issues. That's why doing it by hand is typically the preferred method in most elite environments and LHSs where people are properly trained. But without proper training there's the potential to screw things royally.

This is also why you aren't going to see a lot of automated or radial-arm style machines in professional environments - most people like having the extra control and ability to adjust to things on the fly. Is every skate blade going to be the same? Definitely not!

[fbvnyc 12]

It's trickier to sharpen bent steel, but you can adjust for it. If it's really bad, I remove it from the holder.

[Tech1208 27]

I often remind people of the saying:

Good...Cheap...Quick... You can only choose two. If it's good and cheap, it isn't going to be quick. If its cheap and quick, it isn't going to be good. If it's quick and good, it isn't going to be cheap.

Words to date and marry by...........

[Vet88 674]

+1 for the hands on sharpener.

The guy I use works out of a garage at home and is a well known sharpener for figure skaters in my country and overseas (he was trained by the guy who sharpened skates for Torvill and Dean and other world class figure skaters). Although he has one of the latest FBV machines, I prefer his ROH machine that is built by a 88 year old gentleman in the US. Everything is manual, the machine is built to the finest of tolerances and nothing is quick about a sharpen with this machine. But the results are the best I have ever come across and it is driven all by feel. When he runs the first light pass across the steel, it's all about how the steel feels on the stone - too grippy, too soft, a wobble, a vibration that shouldn't be there etc etc. He will then check, reset, redress, realign, change the stone and then triple check everything again until at last it "feels" right and then the sharpen gets done. As he has has said to me many times, every steel is different and has a different feel on the stone. I just wish I could bottle his knowledge, it is such a pleasure watching a master craftsman go about his work....

[jimmy 194]

What's the preferred or "best" method then? Surely, a person doing it by hand can't really correct for any small bends in runner/holder, etc?

All machine's skate holders will straighten the bend when the steel is clamped, so it's straight when sharpened, but the bend comes back as soon as it's unclamped. Bent steel edges do not grab well and will cause the skate to slip out. As far as the different machines, they ALL will sharpen skates perfectly if maintained and adjusted correctly and the operator knows how to use them with proper methods. I've owned cheap machines, expensive machines, overhead machines (Dupliskate), semi-automatic machines and manual machines and I can get a beautiful sharpening out of all of them. A hand sharpener is not any better.

[z1ggy 81]

Interesting note. Good to know because I might end up investing in that automatic skate sharpener (forgot the name) where place the skate in a holder with the runner inside the machine and the wheel comes up form underneath and gives you the edge. 100% automatic and even tells you when to get a new wheel.

I'll probably be sending my runners back to No Icing tomorrow and will note that I need them profiled/ground back to 100% neutral first. Hopefully that will give me the same feeling I had when I first got them in.

[TPRO 1]

All machine's skate holders will straighten the bend when the steel is clamped, so it's straight when sharpened, but the bend comes back as soon as it's unclamped.

Aren't most holders only 5-6 inches long and often it is not continuous pressure, only a few 1" long segments.? How much will they really straighten the steel?

[jimmy 194]

Interesting note. Good to know because I might end up investing in that automatic skate sharpener (forgot the name) where place the skate in a holder with the runner inside the machine and the wheel comes up form underneath and gives you the edge. 100% automatic and even tells you when to get a new wheel.

I'll probably be sending my runners back to No Icing tomorrow and will note that I need them profiled/ground back to 100% neutral first. Hopefully that will give me the same feeling I had when I first got them in.

No machine is really automatic. Even on the semiautomatic ones, you have to adjust wheel pressure correctly for type steel, and do the correct amount of passes, ensure the stone is dressed correctly or still a good stone if it's one of those preset hollow types. Not to mention align the machine. Beware of the cheap semi-auto that is going to be hitting the market. Stones cost $50 and only do 50 normal sharpenings. If you need to do a lot of passes to take out a nick or deep lost edge, you can burn up the stone fast.

Aren't most holders only 5-6 inches long and often it is not continuous pressure, only a few 1" long segments.? How much will they really straighten the steel?

Most bends are not at the ends, so the clamps usually can straighten them. But, the key is to use a blade straightener vise before you sharpen.