Can you have too much knee bend?

[Labrat198 7]

Can you have too much knee bend?

A little background first. I started playing hockey again after taking a 15 year hiatus. My first pair of skates was a pair of Graf Supra 335S. After a year on them, taking a couple of pucks off the boot and some lace bite convinced me to upgrade and ended up with a pair of Reebok 18K’s from my LHS. It has been about 2 months now and all my weight is on my heels if I am not concentrating on keeping my weight forward, even then I have a hard time feeling like I am able to get on my toes like I did in the Grafs. I feel like I am almost sitting in a chair when I do get my weight off my heels, while that is a good hockey stance it is the only way I can get off my heels. I feel like I should be able to stand up a little more than I can right now. If personal preference reigns, I would say I have too much knee bend right now. When I racing back on a back check it’s not a problem, but in front of the net and in the corners I find myself standing up a bit more, then sitting on the ice after someone bumps me.

So I am wondering if I just need to practice to build up the muscles to hold that position so it feels natural? Would changing the blade pitch or balance point (are they the same thing?) help? My LHS can make whatever changes I need, but I am not sure what to ask for.

[laserrobottime 149]

Yeah, alter the pitch. Go to a +2 to mimic the Graf "feel".

[Vet88 674]

Or persist until you adapt. I've recently gone from G5 ultras to one100's (my sons old skates) and now apxr2's. Best move I ever made. 2 months on and I'm still adjusting but it is getting there and the performance difference, to me anyhow, is night and day between grafs and Bauers. The fit is a different matter and I'm still working on making the boot fit my "normal" shaped foot, a problem I never had with the grafs.

As to knee bend - watch one of the best skaters around, Besa Tsintsadze (Besa is the small guy in black clothing), as he trains some of the better NHL players (Malkin and Gonchar) and look at his stance, his upper legs are horizontal to the ice in strides, power turns etc.

It's sobering to think how good this guy is when he makes elite NHL players look ordinary......

[flip12 717]

He's super railroad.

Edit: to add something to the discussion...

I've been thinking about this difference lately. If you take today's super stiff and high cut boots and go with their neutral profile, are you not forced back because of the inability to get proper dorsiflexion (ankle flex forward) without doing something funky like lacing incredibly loose or skipping 1 or more eyelet pairs? If you look at Sean Day, he skates with 90-degree knee bend but because he also has lots of dorsiflexion he doesn't have to resort way back on his heels to get it. He's a stronger skater technically than the guy above, IMO.

[Labrat198 7]

If you take today's super stiff and high cut boots and go with their neutral profile, are you not forced back because of the inability to get proper dorsiflexion

I think this might account for some of my problem. The Grafs I could really flex, a big part of why I wanted to upgrade is I could feel the laces digging in when I had to turn up the ice to try to catch someone on a brake a way. I wanted something that had a better tongue and a stronger quarter package that wouldn't leave me limping if I took a puck off the boot. Jumping from a beginner level skate to top of the line skate may have been too much for me as far as stiffness goes. If I am really skating hard I can flex them, but if I am just moving around trying to get into position I don't think they flex much. But that gives me something to work on.

I am getting some CCM inserts for my flat feet, so I think I will give it another month to see if that changes anything for better or worse. If I get use to it great, if not maybe putting a slightly more forward pitch to split the difference between the Graf and Reeboks.

It's sobering to think how good this guy is when he makes elite NHL players look ordinary......

Thanks for the videos. I should probably brush up on my power skating drills! I think I was 13 last time I any coaching on this stuff.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

There's probably a point you could go past where recovery from that position isn't optimal, but for the most part, I think people are probably guilty of not bending their knees enough. Where I think I go wrong is I lean forward way too much, especially during a sprint, and should probably keep my chest up more which would enable me to keep my head up more. I have plenty of knee bend, though.

Thanks for the videos. I should probably brush up on my power skating drills! I think I was 13 last time I any coaching on this stuff.

Seriously. Would love to be able to go to a week-long camp like I did as a kid. The closest I get is the powerskating and edge control drills I demonstrate for my JV players.

I made the jump from Grafs to Vapors relatively easy. I'm surprised Vet88 made the jump from Grafs one100's. Such a change in pitch/bootcut, not surprised to hear you ended up in Vapors. The biggest thing I noticed was ankle support in my transition.

[Vet88 674]

lol, I had no choice to change. I bust 3 steels in 1 week and had nothing to skate in for a weekend game. Dug my son's old skates out of the cupboard (one100's) and dived in. Pitch, bootcut, feel, shape, stiffness, balance (and anything else you want to care to toss into the mix) was different. I felt like a real noob for the first 2 weeks but from the moment I put them on I had more power and speed in turns and strides. And then the apx2's are another huge leap ahead again. As my son recently said to me, when he went from the one100's to the mx3's it was the biggest game changer for him so far and I have found the same thing from Grafs to apx2's.

I will say the lack of forward flex in Bauers really got to me, along with the associated lace bite even with forsberg pads. I then made my own version of the 55 flex design, 3mm thick leather offcuts and a trip to the shoe man for rivets. Out of everything I have done to my feet or skates over the last few years, this is the most important one. I can't recommend something like this highly enough for those who want more forward flex and/or a cure for lace bite.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa442/Vet88/IMG_20150926_110330.jpg

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa442/Vet88/IMG_20150926_173313.jpg

[BRUINS_FAN_74 19]

Those videos are brilliant!

[norwood 1]

Why are skating instructors always short?

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

Why are skating instructors always short?

I attribute it to survival of the fittest. Us little guys have to be better skaters so we don't get squashed like bugs out there. At least that's how it was for me playing up an age bracket with checking as a youth.

[Labrat198 7]

Where I think I go wrong is I lean forward way too much

After another month of skating, I think the reason sprints feel better is I am able to lean forward a lot more which puts my COG over the middle of the blade.

A couple things I have noticed over the last month now that I am trying to break down exactly what I am experiencing.

First, I get some chatter on my outside edge when I hockey stop if I don't move my foot back a few inches and point my toe out.

Second, most hard turns feel like its all on the back portion of the blade. I can hear the blade really digging into the ice unless I again try to point my toes out more than I would normally.

Finally, I was looking at both old and new skates side by side and the difference between the front tower and rear tower is greater for my new skates.

I know there is a lot more to a skates pitch than just the holders pitch, but it seems to me the EPRO holders give more forward pitch than the Seven 97 holders. I am hesitant to put any more forward pitch into the skate when my gut says I need the heel lower or the toes up.

I am going to talk with my LHS next time I need them sharpened to see what they think, but I would like to know if my own thoughts are on the right track.

Some additional info: old skates had 9' radius on 272mm length with 1/2 ROH, new skates are 10' on 280 with 5/8.

[JAG 20]

Why are skating instructors always short?

I would argue that even though they are such amazing skaters, their size kept them out of the show. Sure, guys like Gerbe, St. Louis, Theo Fluery, etc... were short guys that made it, but they are outliers, and arguably had a more versatile game, not just an amazing skater (I'm not saying this guy isn't an awesome hockey player, but maybe there is some part of his game that is holding him back). Or I'm completely off base and have no clue what I'm talking about. Could go either way.

[Vet88 674]

To me the pitch is a big factor of how well you can skate when changing from one boot to another. A reprofile and or a shim may help a lot, it's all about muscle memory as you relearn how to skate well again (everything working together smoothly). A turning balance drill I use for coaching is where I get the players to place one foot behind the other so the feet are inline, tuck the back knee tightly into the back of the front knee and then lean into the turn. Keep your knees tightly locked together and really concentrate on keeping the feet inline through the whole turn. This works on edge control, balance, weight distribution and COG.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

If I'm not mistaken, most of your weight should be on the heels in tight or rink turns and then you explode out of the turn from the heel driving to through to the toe. Am I reading it incorrectly, or are you trying to avoid that?

[Labrat198 7]

I guess I don't feel very stable when I am making those sharp turns, so I figured putting my weight over my arches would be better. It doesn't take much to lose my balance in those situations, so I find myself avoiding charging into the corners to fight for the puck because I don't trust myself to stay upright. I didn't have that problem worth my old skates.

[Vet88 674]

You are right about where one needs to get to for a power turn but its the setup, your feet alignment and weight transfer that is hard to teach for correct technique. To much weight on the heels kills your speed through the turn and I see a lot of players doing this even though they are not powering through the turn.The drill is help a player learn where their center of balance is at low speed turns, feeling the edges under your feet, your COG and keeping your speed flowing through the entire turn. As players work on this drill their turns become quicker and tighter whilst still maintaining the same form, they begin to use their edges better and not rely on driving the outside heel hard into the ice to get the necessary grip. As you get faster into the turn, the foot separation naturally occurs (outside foot begins to move outside the center line of the turn) the knees separate and the transfer of weight to the heel through the turn begins. One of the end goals of the drill is for the player to learn how to transfer just enough weight to the heel to make the turn and still keep maximum speed through the turn.

In one of the Besa vids (part 1 around 12 minutes in) you see him talking to players about one aspect of this, driving the inside foot hard into the turn to try to get the player slightly more forward over their skates, good foot separation (front to rear) and good foot alignment (only as wide as necessary). Have a close look at the angle of his outside leg (through the back of the leg) to the ice as he powers through a turn. He is around 30 - 40 degrees where most of the other skaters are around 50 - 60 degrees, hence less heel into the ice. He is a classic example of how you use edges for turning and maintaining speed though the turn - lol even though he loses an edge and wipes out in one of them!

[darkhors 88]

Man, watching those video's brings back some memories from power skating classes when I was younger :) I would actually love to do something like this again once a week just to work on my skating. Also, that ice looks so great even after all the digging they're doing to it. That said, you can definitely hear the difference between Besa and the other skaters when they turn through their edges. There's so much more carving in his yet he keeps his speed up. Frankly, it's amazing that those guys are having such a hard time trying to emulate the drills he's putting them though, which pretty much means that guys is a killer skater.