Flare Skate Blade - Anyone seen this or used it? WIder than typical steel

[darkhors 88]

1 hour ago, stick9 said:

So you hate Bauer because other companies choose to comply with US patent laws...

Seems totally reasonable. 🙄

I dislike Bauer because unlike other holder companies, they don't allow aftermarket people to provide steel that they won't. I understand the patent law. However, Bauer's steel is complete garbage and they know it's garbage and they continue to do nothing about it. I would have liked to see them maybe step up and bridge a deal with Step rather than shutting them down for the holder. If their holder is that good, then why not let people pick what steel they want rather than trying to force the consumer into a shitty product? Here's the other rub... it was and still is perfectly fine for Step to make products for the Lightspeed 2 holders. There was never an issue until the edge. What exactly is the difference other than Bauer has people running their company now that couldn't care less about the consumer.

Edited December 9, 2019 by darkhors

[darkhors 88]

On 2/13/2019 at 6:05 PM, SkateWorksPNW said:

Through retailers, yes. We sell them. I am not sure if Flare will sell direct. 

What is your website? Are you guys selling both the regular and DLC?

[darkhors 88]

2 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I wouldn't say they don't "care" about the consumer. Bauer makes some pretty nice skates. 

The hockey equipment game is a tough one, and most of those companies have gone in and out of bankruptcy at one point or another - Bauer included. 

Basically, you have a situation where company "A" has put in all the time and R&D into a product, only for company "B" to come along and try to undercut them with little overhead in order to extract profits from one sliver of their market. In this case, company "A" is Bauer, and "B" are anyone making aftermarket steel. 

This dynamic exists in every industry. Fortunately, for this particular industry, it's still nascent enough that Bauer are incentivized to reinvest profits, otherwise the opportunity exists for other to come along and eat into their market, eg. True skates.

Bottom line is, nobody is ever going to start a business without the ability to file for patents and protect their intellectual property. As longer as Bauer directs their extra profits back into R&D, it's probably a win-win for everyone. 

This is EXACTLY what Bauer did with the holder in the first place. So now you have a hypocritical company trying to profit off of someone else's product whose they stole in the first place. Don't for one second think that Bauer developed the edge holder completely "in-house". Long has it been that Bauer has come out with something that has revolutionized hockey. All of their new stuff is meh at best, including their ADV Supreme. Their skates are decent (I currently wear Vapors), but CCM and True are gaining market share very quickly and I think you're going to see a major shift in what people are buying. Warrior, CCM and True are all putting out high quality gear now rivaling Bauer and usually at better prices (skates not included). However, with True being the front of the custom skate market, CCM now has a much more involved custom program and Bauer's is still not great. Their scanner is not always accurate and you still have to pay extra for "full" custom.

As longer as Bauer directs their extra profits back into R&D, it's probably a win-win for everyone.

If you think Bauer is redirecting all their extra profits back solely into R&D you're fooling yourself. Their company has been poorly run since they were bought back from Nike.

[darkhors 88]

4 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

Buying out a company or paying licensing fees is entirely different. Perhaps STEP or Tyldan should considering such an arrangement. 

It seems like you're mostly echoing what I said: that Bauer is incentivized to reinvest in their company lest they lose more ground to CCM, True, etc...

I think we both agree that Bauer should be trying to do better, I just don't think they are. My biggest complaint is that if you think your products are that good, you should let them speak for themselves, just as CCM, Graf, etc do. None of those companies, especially CCM, are going after companies making steel for their holders. One main reason is, it's really not worth it and as a company, I'd rather have people buying my skates and putting different steel in it than not buying it at all because they can't get the steel they want. This seems super counter-intuitive to getting consumers into your product. 

[stick9 890]

1 hour ago, darkhors said:

I think we both agree that Bauer should be trying to do better, I just don't think they are. My biggest complaint is that if you think your products are that good, you should let them speak for themselves, just as CCM, Graf, etc do. None of those companies, especially CCM, are going after companies making steel for their holders. One main reason is, it's really not worth it and as a company, I'd rather have people buying my skates and putting different steel in it than not buying it at all because they can't get the steel they want. This seems super counter-intuitive to getting consumers into your product. 

None of those companies had a holder/runner set up that was patented. You tend to just gloss over that.  

The goal should be to get the consumer in your product and not need or want someone else's steel. FWIW, I highly doubt people are not buying Bauer skates because they can't use a certain type of steel.  

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

4 hours ago, stick9 said:

None of those companies had a holder/runner set up that was patented. You tend to just gloss over that.  

The goal should be to get the consumer in your product and not need or want someone else's steel. FWIW, I highly doubt people are not buying Bauer skates because they can't use a certain type of steel.  

They maybe still buy the skates but most switch steel right away.

 

And as mentioned Bauer did not invent the quick release nor is a great holder. the amount of play after a short time is just silly. Hopefully they will fix this issue now. And maybe just maybe there new super steel will be decent. 

 

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

15 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

They maybe still buy the skates but most switch steel right away.

 

And as mentioned Bauer did not invent the quick release nor is a great holder. the amount of play after a short time is just silly. Hopefully they will fix this issue now. And maybe just maybe there new super steel will be decent. 

 

 

Based on the feedback from equipment managers that have been testing out the new steel they still have a lot of work to do. My understanding is none of the players have been impressed so far. Thankfully, they still have time though to work out the issues before that new steel launches. 

Personally, I think it would have been better and possibly more lucrative for them to just buy out STEP. Maybe getting the injunction was the first step in that process to hurt them financially and then buy them out for less. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

8 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Based on the feedback from equipment managers that have been testing out the new steel they still have a lot of work to do. My understanding is none of the players have been impressed so far. Thankfully, they still have time though to work out the issues before that new steel launches. 

Personally, I think it would have been better and possibly more lucrative for them to just buy out STEP. Maybe getting the injunction was the first step in that process to hurt them financially and then buy them out for less. 

Not sure how it will hurt them financially? They only produced that edge blade for a few years? Since then they now produce all of Trues steel? While they were the most popular in the NHL the CCM is gaining traction. Plus now they do more figure and so on. 

Set back sure. But I doubt Step would ever seem to them now. They offered to work then and Bauer refused. 

Would you work with them after they sued you? 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

56 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

It's not really relevant whether they invented it or not. 

I've yet to experience any play in my holders - player and goalie skates - if it's even an issue. 

Sure its relevant!!! There claim is they have patent for Y holder. The originator of Y holder couldn't afford to battle in court so they modified (poorly)and stole the idea. 

 

I was one of the first to notice the issue of wobble over time with agression and good slaters on here. I was bashed to know end about this. Yet Bauer modified the depth as per there own design team when I spoke to them at a trade show..

There are now a few threads on here about this issue. Its 100% a problem. 

Even @JR Boucicaut will tell you I was right even though for a while it wasnt seen by others. 

It's no where near as good as an LS2 holder or the new CCM XS for that matter.

 

 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

1 hour ago, pgeorgan said:

They're not "claiming" they have a patent. They actually *have* the patent. 

Any design issues of the specific holder are also irrelevant. 

They have the patent and it's their right to decide who they license it 

Round and round we go. 

A. They stole the idea and didnt improve on it. 

B. Other companies are copying the blade 

C. Holder wears out in 3 to 6 months on high level players. And no offence to Flare a quality blade. It's worse with the extra torque the blade provides with it's high quality steel. 

Your turn.

And on a side note there @pgeorganwhat's your deal about commenting on all my posts in a negative fashion on multiple topics?? Do you even know me? 

Edited December 11, 2019 by oldtrainerguy28

[darkhors 88]

15 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

They're not "claiming" they have a patent. They actually *have* the patent. 

Any design issues of the specific holder are also irrelevant. 

They have the patent and it's their right to decide who they license it to. 

What all of you that are agreeing with Bauer are missing is that they IN FACT stole the patent out from under the company that developed it. This is not new news people. The point here is to show how Bauer continues to try and push consumers into their products by force and not by creating quality equipment.

I think what you're going to see now is that many NHL teams are going to start getting rid of the Edge holder and going to either the XS or Shift. Now that there are actual competitors out there AND their products are better, EQM's don't have to rely on a shitty product just because it's the only one available and they're being bullied into it. You're already starting to see the shift in skates. Yes, it's a slow shift, but CCM and True are gaining ground and that snowball is going to become an avalanche soon. I used to love Bauer's stuff but over the last 7-8 years I've started to get fed up with their antics. The last piece of Bauer equipment I have is my skates and after this season, they'll be assigned to coaching duty only. Onward and upward for me.

[stick9 890]

5 hours ago, darkhors said:

What all of you that are agreeing with Bauer are missing is that they IN FACT stole the patent out from under the company that developed it. This is not new news people. The point here is to show how Bauer continues to try and push consumers into their products by force and not by creating quality equipment.

I think what you're going to see now is that many NHL teams are going to start getting rid of the Edge holder and going to either the XS or Shift. Now that there are actual competitors out there AND their products are better, EQM's don't have to rely on a shitty product just because it's the only one available and they're being bullied into it. You're already starting to see the shift in skates. Yes, it's a slow shift, but CCM and True are gaining ground and that snowball is going to become an avalanche soon. I used to love Bauer's stuff but over the last 7-8 years I've started to get fed up with their antics. The last piece of Bauer equipment I have is my skates and after this season, they'll be assigned to coaching duty only. Onward and upward for me.

I don't think you'll see the level of change you are describing. The Bauer holder, edge or otherwise has been a mainstay since the tuuk era began. 

Time will tell.

[darkhors 88]

Lightspeed and before were from the "old" Bauer. Not just that, but as stated above, the Edge holder is not efficient and the top level players are going to change to anything that will give them a step up. This is why you're seeing guys moving to different steel, holders, skates, etc. CCM and True now have products that rival the edge in terms of functionality as well as being better in overall quality. This could obviously change as those are still relatively new, but unless Bauer changes the edge holder, it's going to be able to keep up with these new holders. People want choices. They don't want to be railroaded into equipment just because. 

I'm not sure why Bauer wouldn't have wanted to work WITH Step, especially at the top end of their skate lines. I feel like this was a huge misstep (over the course of many missteps by Bauer) to achieve greater customer return purchases while offering some of the best steel in the market. 

Bauer is also doing the same thing with the Easton tech they acquired. If you're following anything dealing with the new Flylite taper, they're already having issues with breakage on these sticks and many of the pro's that are "using" them are actually using something else with the flylite graphics, usually ADV vapors. We as consumers need to voice our concerns so they start actually providing decent products again. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

15 minutes ago, stick9 said:

I don't think you'll see the level of change you are describing. The Bauer holder, edge or otherwise has been a mainstay since the tuuk era began. 

Time will tell.

I am not so sure about that, there are already way more players using the new CCM XS holder than I would have imagined. 

[Vet88 674]

On 12/11/2019 at 10:21 AM, pgeorgan said:

I've yet to experience any play in my holders - player and goalie skates - if it's even an issue. 

Then it sounds like you haven't worked in a shop sharpening skates. It's an issue I see daily, put the steel in the clamp and watch the boot flop. Most players don't care because they don't want to pay for the repairs and for a beer league competition it just doesn't make things that much better. Talk to anyone who cares about their equipment and it's impact on performance (at least in my experience) and then it's a different matter. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Vet88

[Vet88 674]

22 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

Correct, I've not worked in a pro shop. However, I would definitely care. And I would notice. 

You probably see it daily because of something called "sample bias". 

No, you don't notice. In general, at least in my experience without a great deal of force and effort, you wont actually notice the blade moving if you are trying to do so by hand. It's not until the boot gets put in the jig to get sharpened that it becomes noticeable, and this requires a sideways mounted jig, a sparx or any other vertical mounted boot holder will tell you sweet fa.

As to sample bias? I sharpen skates. I don't have any bias other than the fact it's an edge holder that predominately flops. Everyone needs skates sharpened, regardless of skate brand. I see every type of brand and edge holders are the worst. Admittedly I don't do hundreds of skate a week, I live in a small town where ice sports are a niche market but I'm only echoing what other high volume, quality professional sharpeners have seen every day, @oldtrainerguy28.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Vet88

[stick9 890]

1 hour ago, Vet88 said:

Then it sounds like you haven't worked in a shop sharpening skates. It's an issue I see daily, put the steel in the clamp and watch the boot flop. Most players don't care because they don't want to pay for the repairs and for a beer league competition it just doesn't make things that much better. Talk to anyone who cares about their equipment and it's impact on performance (at least in my experience) and then it's a different matter. 

Simple question. Do they not care because they don't want to pay for it, or do they not care because they don't notice it?

I've been using edge holders for 5-6 years. I don't play at a high level, C level beer league, but I'm on the ice multiple times a week year round. The only issue I have ever had with the holder was one particular set of aftermarket steel. Which was out of spec and promptly replaced by the manufacturer.

[Vet88 674]

3 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I think I can mimic the force of gravity with my hand, so not seeing how vertical vs horizontal jig would make a difference. 

And so I have heard the same from just about every other skater I point it out to, I can't make it move as they try to shift it by hand. Leverage, as Archimedes said. Put it in a holder....

[Vet88 674]

Just now, stick9 said:

Simple question. Do they not care because they don't want to pay for it, or do they not care because they don't notice it?

I've been using edge holders for 5-6 years. I don't play at a high level, C level beer league, but I'm on the ice multiple times a week year round. The only issue I have ever had with the holder was one particular set of aftermarket steel. Which was out of spec and promptly replaced by the manufacturer.

Bit of both and if they don't really notice it they aren't willing to pay for it. Remember that it doesn't suddenly let go, it happens over time and you are adapting to it every time you skate. I'm not saying every edge holder has this issue but it is more significant in edge than any other brand.

[Vet88 674]

Just now, pgeorgan said:

Perhaps you could give us a real-world example. 

I have, if you search earlier threads about this issue I posted pics of my sons skates, neither I, the sharpener I was going to at the time or my son could move the blade by hand yet put his MX3's in the jig and the flop was very noticeable. Fixed it with Teflon tape but eventually they should have been replaced, I didn't as he moved on to other skates shortly after this. 

[Vet88 674]

I don't have access to prosharp, sparx or elite sharpeners (they are the ones I know of that use a vertical mount). But do I really have to explain how, if you can't move it by hand, it's not going to show up in a vertical mount that has very little sideways deflection occurring on the boot? You stick the boot in the machine and you press the button, it's not going to move sideways unless you are actually testing it and then it's up to the quality of the clamping unit. If you really want to test it in a vertical mount I'd suggest a bench mounted vice clamp would be a better proposition.

[Vet88 674]

1 minute ago, pgeorgan said:

What I'm not going to do, though, is lean on the skate, because that would be unrealistic, wouldn't it? 

Why not? What forces are going thru the inside edge when you accelerate from a standing start? Foot pronating into the push, your whole body weight on one foot driving thru the toe. 100kgs then or you pushing on it in a jig?

[Vet88 674]

Theory is not my strong point, I'd start with weighing your boot then multiplying the kgs by 9.8, that will give you the newton force of the boot in a sideways jig (yes, I included the steel in the jig). If gravity is moving it then this force in a vertical jig should move it.

And my apologies to the flare thread, this is my last post on this particular matter.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Vet88

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

19 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

Maybe I'm not being clear: what amount of Force, in Newtons, would you say you have to apply in your experiment to the boot/steel/jig whatever, to reproduce the problem. 

When I get home from overseas doing sharpening training I will send you a video of how many Newton's it takes    ZERO .  in worn holders.

and I have had it happen in ones 3 months old. And was movable out of the jig. Stop the bs that it doesnt happen. I have had it happen in XS holders produced before a certain date( have to look again) but it's the laws of physicis.  plastic cant lock in a more substantial material and keep it firm. Especially when on each stop on the ice the blade is under pressure and in some cases vibrates in hard stops. 

I also have slow motion video where you can see it flex. to the point it effects the stride. 

ex: A top gthl player in Toronto was about to play in the OHL cup last year at this time. He was in a scoring slump and not skating as well. Mother noticed it. 

I had mentioned numerous times they were lose but superstitious fidnt want to change. Mom who was an avid player herself made him come in so I could show him how bad they were. His new slates had arrived but didn't want to change to them as his coach Paul Coffey wouldnt allow it.  Paul is funny like that. His kid no problem.  anyone else on the team unless it's broken fix it dont replace  

Anyway we changed holders after I showed him and he tried on his new skates he could feel it. 

Player went in to lead the OHL cup in scoring and was drafted 5th overall. 

So yes it's a problem. 

Hope that's real world enough for you. 

You blow me away thinking we are making this up. 

 

[darkhors 88]

33 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I wanted to know bc OP said I wouldn't be able to detect it in an upright clamp. At zero newtons, seems like they were wrong. Also, we were talking about Tuuk holders, not XS. 

As I stated, I will keep an eye out, but I'm not going to extrapolate about an entire sample set because of a few anecdotal corner cases with an indeterminate number of variables - also known as "confirmation bias". 

Regarding plastic vs metal, see here: Metal vs Plastic: 5 Key Comparisons

Most players aren't going to cause that kind of wear. At the professional level, sure, but pros consume their gear at a considerably higher rate than everyone else. 

The good news is, holders are incredibly cheap to replace. 

I still don't see this really being an issue during gameplay. You've got bigger problems if you torque your ankle to the extent OP said it would take to reproduce the problem. After all, it's ice, not a vice grip. 

With the potential to sounds a little arrogant here, you said yourself that you're a C level beer league player. You don't have the skating skill set and fundamentals (most likely) for it to affect you because, well, you're a great skater. What I find hilariously funny (not funny like a clown), is that you've been a member here for just shy of 2 months and you're arguing with someone that is a PROFESSIONAL EQM at the highest levels. Do you think that he sits at home at night during the 6 hours of downtime he has to make this shit up and for you to say he's evidence is anecdotal? It seems like you're here just to troll and create arguments well after facts have been shown regarding the questions at hand. It's really a shame too, because this thread was interesting until you continued to insinuate that apparently nobody else on here knows what the hell we're talking about. You should really research who you're talking to and understand what level of intelligence, skill and years of expertise they have before coming in here and spouting nonsense. So, I guess I'm done with this thread now!  @JR Boucicaut can we close this topic it's jumped the shark about a dozen times now.