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SkateWorksPNW

Flare Skate Blade - Anyone seen this or used it? WIder than typical steel

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1 hour ago, stick9 said:

So you hate Bauer because other companies choose to comply with US patent laws...

Seems totally reasonable. 🙄

I dislike Bauer because unlike other holder companies, they don't allow aftermarket people to provide steel that they won't. I understand the patent law. However, Bauer's steel is complete garbage and they know it's garbage and they continue to do nothing about it. I would have liked to see them maybe step up and bridge a deal with Step rather than shutting them down for the holder. If their holder is that good, then why not let people pick what steel they want rather than trying to force the consumer into a shitty product? Here's the other rub... it was and still is perfectly fine for Step to make products for the Lightspeed 2 holders. There was never an issue until the edge. What exactly is the difference other than Bauer has people running their company now that couldn't care less about the consumer.

Edited by darkhors

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On 2/13/2019 at 6:05 PM, SkateWorksPNW said:

Through retailers, yes. We sell them. I am not sure if Flare will sell direct. 

What is your website? Are you guys selling both the regular and DLC?

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1 hour ago, darkhors said:

I dislike Bauer because unlike other holder companies, they don't allow aftermarket people to provide steel that they won't. I understand the patent law. However, Bauer's steel is complete garbage and they know it's garbage and they continue to do nothing about it. I would have liked to see them maybe step up and bridge a deal with Step rather than shutting them down for the holder. If their holder is that good, then why not let people pick what steel they want rather than trying to force the consumer into a shitty product? Here's the other rub... it was and still is perfectly fine for Step to make products for the Lightspeed 2 holders. There was never an issue until the edge. What exactly is the difference other than Bauer has people running their company now that couldn't care less about the consumer.

I wouldn't say they don't "care" about the consumer. Bauer makes some pretty nice skates. 

The hockey equipment game is a tough one, and most of those companies have gone in and out of bankruptcy at one point or another - Bauer included. 

Basically, you have a situation where company "A" has put in all the time and R&D into a product, only for company "B" to come along and try to undercut them with little overhead in order to extract profits from one sliver of their market. In this case, company "A" is Bauer, and "B" are anyone making aftermarket steel. 

This dynamic exists in every industry. Fortunately, for this particular industry, it's still nascent enough that Bauer are incentivized to reinvest profits, otherwise the opportunity exists for others to come along and eat into their market, eg. True skates.

There are upsides and downsides to companies that can leverage economies of scale. Not too long ago, I received my brand new Bauer skates in the mail and was unhappy about one of the holders making a funny noise. Bauer sent me a brand new pair of holders, no questions asked. 

Contrast that with the time I purchased Step Steel and had an issue with the quality of steel. Step were unwilling to grant a warranty replacement and now that steel is in the garbage. YMMV.

Bottom line is, nobody is ever going to start a business without the ability to file for patents and protect their intellectual property. As longer as Bauer directs their extra profits back into R&D, it's probably a win-win for everyone. With other companies breathing down their necks to keep everyone honest, the consumer comes out on top. At least for now. 

Edited by pgeorgan

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2 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I wouldn't say they don't "care" about the consumer. Bauer makes some pretty nice skates. 

The hockey equipment game is a tough one, and most of those companies have gone in and out of bankruptcy at one point or another - Bauer included. 

Basically, you have a situation where company "A" has put in all the time and R&D into a product, only for company "B" to come along and try to undercut them with little overhead in order to extract profits from one sliver of their market. In this case, company "A" is Bauer, and "B" are anyone making aftermarket steel. 

This dynamic exists in every industry. Fortunately, for this particular industry, it's still nascent enough that Bauer are incentivized to reinvest profits, otherwise the opportunity exists for other to come along and eat into their market, eg. True skates.

Bottom line is, nobody is ever going to start a business without the ability to file for patents and protect their intellectual property. As longer as Bauer directs their extra profits back into R&D, it's probably a win-win for everyone. 

This is EXACTLY what Bauer did with the holder in the first place. So now you have a hypocritical company trying to profit off of someone else's product whose they stole in the first place. Don't for one second think that Bauer developed the edge holder completely "in-house". Long has it been that Bauer has come out with something that has revolutionized hockey. All of their new stuff is meh at best, including their ADV Supreme. Their skates are decent (I currently wear Vapors), but CCM and True are gaining market share very quickly and I think you're going to see a major shift in what people are buying. Warrior, CCM and True are all putting out high quality gear now rivaling Bauer and usually at better prices (skates not included). However, with True being the front of the custom skate market, CCM now has a much more involved custom program and Bauer's is still not great. Their scanner is not always accurate and you still have to pay extra for "full" custom.

As longer as Bauer directs their extra profits back into R&D, it's probably a win-win for everyone.

If you think Bauer is redirecting all their extra profits back solely into R&D you're fooling yourself. Their company has been poorly run since they were bought back from Nike.

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6 minutes ago, darkhors said:

This is EXACTLY what Bauer did with the holder in the first place. So now you have a hypocritical company trying to profit off of someone else's product whose they stole in the first place. Don't for one second think that Bauer developed the edge holder completely "in-house". Long has it been that Bauer has come out with something that has revolutionized hockey. All of their new stuff is meh at best, including their ADV Supreme. Their skates are decent (I currently wear Vapors), but CCM and True are gaining market share very quickly and I think you're going to see a major shift in what people are buying. Warrior, CCM and True are all putting out high quality gear now rivaling Bauer and usually at better prices (skates not included). However, with True being the front of the custom skate market, CCM now has a much more involved custom program and Bauer's is still not great. Their scanner is not always accurate and you still have to pay extra for "full" custom.

As longer as Bauer directs their extra profits back into R&D, it's probably a win-win for everyone.

If you think Bauer is redirecting all their extra profits back solely into R&D you're fooling yourself. Their company has been poorly run since they were bought back from Nike.

Buying out a company or paying licensing fees is entirely different. Perhaps STEP or Tyldan should considering such an arrangement. 

It seems like you're mostly echoing what I said: that Bauer is incentivized to reinvest in their company lest they lose more ground to CCM, True, etc...

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4 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

Buying out a company or paying licensing fees is entirely different. Perhaps STEP or Tyldan should considering such an arrangement. 

It seems like you're mostly echoing what I said: that Bauer is incentivized to reinvest in their company lest they lose more ground to CCM, True, etc...

I think we both agree that Bauer should be trying to do better, I just don't think they are. My biggest complaint is that if you think your products are that good, you should let them speak for themselves, just as CCM, Graf, etc do. None of those companies, especially CCM, are going after companies making steel for their holders. One main reason is, it's really not worth it and as a company, I'd rather have people buying my skates and putting different steel in it than not buying it at all because they can't get the steel they want. This seems super counter-intuitive to getting consumers into your product. 

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2 minutes ago, darkhors said:

I think we both agree that Bauer should be trying to do better, I just don't think they are. My biggest complaint is that if you think your products are that good, you should let them speak for themselves, just as CCM, Graf, etc do. None of those companies, especially CCM, are going after companies making steel for their holders. One main reason is, it's really not worth it and as a company, I'd rather have people buying my skates and putting different steel in it than not buying it at all because they can't get the steel they want. This seems super counter-intuitive to getting consumers into your product. 

Well, Bauer has the lions share of the skate market, so it makes sense they haven't taken this stance. CCM does not, and thus it makes sense that they wouldn't go after anyone, as it benefits them if they are in a unique position to gain market share via disgruntled ex-Bauer customers. CCM is already offering their skates for free for 90 days. 

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1 hour ago, darkhors said:

I think we both agree that Bauer should be trying to do better, I just don't think they are. My biggest complaint is that if you think your products are that good, you should let them speak for themselves, just as CCM, Graf, etc do. None of those companies, especially CCM, are going after companies making steel for their holders. One main reason is, it's really not worth it and as a company, I'd rather have people buying my skates and putting different steel in it than not buying it at all because they can't get the steel they want. This seems super counter-intuitive to getting consumers into your product. 

None of those companies had a holder/runner set up that was patented. You tend to just gloss over that.  

The goal should be to get the consumer in your product and not need or want someone else's steel. FWIW, I highly doubt people are not buying Bauer skates because they can't use a certain type of steel.  

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50 minutes ago, stick9 said:

None of those companies had a holder/runner set up that was patented. You tend to just gloss over that.  

The goal should be to get the consumer in your product and not need or want someone else's steel. FWIW, I highly doubt people are not buying Bauer skates because they can't use a certain type of steel.  

Indeed. 

If Bauer thought this would materially affect their bottom line negatively, they wouldn't do it. 

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4 hours ago, stick9 said:

None of those companies had a holder/runner set up that was patented. You tend to just gloss over that.  

The goal should be to get the consumer in your product and not need or want someone else's steel. FWIW, I highly doubt people are not buying Bauer skates because they can't use a certain type of steel.  

They maybe still buy the skates but most switch steel right away.

 

And as mentioned Bauer did not invent the quick release nor is a great holder. the amount of play after a short time is just silly. Hopefully they will fix this issue now. And maybe just maybe there new super steel will be decent. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

They maybe still buy the skates but most switch steel right away.

 

And as mentioned Bauer did not invent the quick release nor is a great holder. the amount of play after a short time is just silly. Hopefully they will fix this issue now. And maybe just maybe there new super steel will be decent. 

 

 

Based on the feedback from equipment managers that have been testing out the new steel they still have a lot of work to do. My understanding is none of the players have been impressed so far. Thankfully, they still have time though to work out the issues before that new steel launches. 

Personally, I think it would have been better and possibly more lucrative for them to just buy out STEP. Maybe getting the injunction was the first step in that process to hurt them financially and then buy them out for less. 

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22 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

They maybe still buy the skates but most switch steel right away.

 

And as mentioned Bauer did not invent the quick release nor is a great holder. the amount of play after a short time is just silly. Hopefully they will fix this issue now. And maybe just maybe there new super steel will be decent. 

 

 

It's not really relevant whether they invented it or not. 

I've yet to experience any play in my holders - player and goalie skates - if it's even an issue. 

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Can't say I've ever played against anyone where I could definitively say,

"Wow, that guy's really being held back by his choice of steel."

Edited by pgeorgan
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8 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Based on the feedback from equipment managers that have been testing out the new steel they still have a lot of work to do. My understanding is none of the players have been impressed so far. Thankfully, they still have time though to work out the issues before that new steel launches. 

Personally, I think it would have been better and possibly more lucrative for them to just buy out STEP. Maybe getting the injunction was the first step in that process to hurt them financially and then buy them out for less. 

Not sure how it will hurt them financially? They only produced that edge blade for a few years? Since then they now produce all of Trues steel? While they were the most popular in the NHL the CCM is gaining traction. Plus now they do more figure and so on. 

Set back sure. But I doubt Step would ever seem to them now. They offered to work then and Bauer refused. 

Would you work with them after they sued you? 

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56 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

It's not really relevant whether they invented it or not. 

I've yet to experience any play in my holders - player and goalie skates - if it's even an issue. 

Sure its relevant!!! There claim is they have patent for Y holder. The originator of Y holder couldn't afford to battle in court so they modified (poorly)and stole the idea. 

 

I was one of the first to notice the issue of wobble over time with agression and good slaters on here. I was bashed to know end about this. Yet Bauer modified the depth as per there own design team when I spoke to them at a trade show..

There are now a few threads on here about this issue. Its 100% a problem. 

Even @JR Boucicaut will tell you I was right even though for a while it wasnt seen by others. 

It's no where near as good as an LS2 holder or the new CCM XS for that matter.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Sure its relevant!!! There claim is they have patent for Y holder. The originator of Y holder couldn't afford to battle in court so they modified (poorly)and stole the idea. 

 

I was one of the first to notice the issue of wobble over time with agression and good slaters on here. I was bashed to know end about this. Yet Bauer modified the depth as per there own design team when I spoke to them at a trade show..

There are now a few threads on here about this issue. Its 100% a problem. 

Even @JR Boucicaut will tell you I was right even though for a while it wasnt seen by others. 

It's no where near as good as an LS2 holder or the new CCM XS for that matter.

 

 

They're not "claiming" they have a patent. They actually *have* the patent. 

Any design issues of the specific holder are also irrelevant. 

They have the patent and it's their right to decide who they license it to. 

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1 hour ago, pgeorgan said:

They're not "claiming" they have a patent. They actually *have* the patent. 

Any design issues of the specific holder are also irrelevant. 

They have the patent and it's their right to decide who they license it 

Round and round we go. 

A. They stole the idea and didnt improve on it. 

B. Other companies are copying the blade 

C. Holder wears out in 3 to 6 months on high level players. And no offence to Flare a quality blade. It's worse with the extra torque the blade provides with it's high quality steel. 

Your turn.

And on a side note there @pgeorganwhat's your deal about commenting on all my posts in a negative fashion on multiple topics?? Do you even know me? 

Edited by oldtrainerguy28

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15 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

They're not "claiming" they have a patent. They actually *have* the patent. 

Any design issues of the specific holder are also irrelevant. 

They have the patent and it's their right to decide who they license it to. 

What all of you that are agreeing with Bauer are missing is that they IN FACT stole the patent out from under the company that developed it. This is not new news people. The point here is to show how Bauer continues to try and push consumers into their products by force and not by creating quality equipment.

I think what you're going to see now is that many NHL teams are going to start getting rid of the Edge holder and going to either the XS or Shift. Now that there are actual competitors out there AND their products are better, EQM's don't have to rely on a shitty product just because it's the only one available and they're being bullied into it. You're already starting to see the shift in skates. Yes, it's a slow shift, but CCM and True are gaining ground and that snowball is going to become an avalanche soon. I used to love Bauer's stuff but over the last 7-8 years I've started to get fed up with their antics. The last piece of Bauer equipment I have is my skates and after this season, they'll be assigned to coaching duty only. Onward and upward for me.

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16 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Round and round we go. 

A. They stole the idea and didnt improve on it. 

B. Other companies are copying the blade 

C. Holder wears out in 3 to 6 months on high level players. And no offence to Flare a quality blade. It's worse with the extra torque the blade provides with it's high quality steel. 

Your turn.

And on a side note there @pgeorganwhat's your deal about commenting on all my posts in a negative fashion on multiple topics?? Do you even know me? 

None of this has any relevance to whether Bauer has the patent or not. 

Re: commenting on your posts - I think it just appears that way because you post quite a bit. 

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50 minutes ago, darkhors said:

What all of you that are agreeing with Bauer are missing is that they IN FACT stole the patent out from under the company that developed it. This is not new news people. The point here is to show how Bauer continues to try and push consumers into their products by force and not by creating quality equipment.

I think what you're going to see now is that many NHL teams are going to start getting rid of the Edge holder and going to either the XS or Shift. Now that there are actual competitors out there AND their products are better, EQM's don't have to rely on a shitty product just because it's the only one available and they're being bullied into it. You're already starting to see the shift in skates. Yes, it's a slow shift, but CCM and True are gaining ground and that snowball is going to become an avalanche soon. I used to love Bauer's stuff but over the last 7-8 years I've started to get fed up with their antics. The last piece of Bauer equipment I have is my skates and after this season, they'll be assigned to coaching duty only. Onward and upward for me.

It's ok if someone doesn't like Bauer's skates. I personally think they are great. I think CCM are great too, though I've moved away from them as they are much wider than they use to be. 

I do hope that CCM and True gain more ground. I have no problem with competition - it's good for the consumer. 

Either way, Bauer has the patent. Patent law is probably a topic for another forum altogether. 

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5 hours ago, darkhors said:

What all of you that are agreeing with Bauer are missing is that they IN FACT stole the patent out from under the company that developed it. This is not new news people. The point here is to show how Bauer continues to try and push consumers into their products by force and not by creating quality equipment.

I think what you're going to see now is that many NHL teams are going to start getting rid of the Edge holder and going to either the XS or Shift. Now that there are actual competitors out there AND their products are better, EQM's don't have to rely on a shitty product just because it's the only one available and they're being bullied into it. You're already starting to see the shift in skates. Yes, it's a slow shift, but CCM and True are gaining ground and that snowball is going to become an avalanche soon. I used to love Bauer's stuff but over the last 7-8 years I've started to get fed up with their antics. The last piece of Bauer equipment I have is my skates and after this season, they'll be assigned to coaching duty only. Onward and upward for me.

I don't think you'll see the level of change you are describing. The Bauer holder, edge or otherwise has been a mainstay since the tuuk era began. 

Time will tell.

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Lightspeed and before were from the "old" Bauer. Not just that, but as stated above, the Edge holder is not efficient and the top level players are going to change to anything that will give them a step up. This is why you're seeing guys moving to different steel, holders, skates, etc. CCM and True now have products that rival the edge in terms of functionality as well as being better in overall quality. This could obviously change as those are still relatively new, but unless Bauer changes the edge holder, it's going to be able to keep up with these new holders. People want choices. They don't want to be railroaded into equipment just because. 

I'm not sure why Bauer wouldn't have wanted to work WITH Step, especially at the top end of their skate lines. I feel like this was a huge misstep (over the course of many missteps by Bauer) to achieve greater customer return purchases while offering some of the best steel in the market. 

Bauer is also doing the same thing with the Easton tech they acquired. If you're following anything dealing with the new Flylite taper, they're already having issues with breakage on these sticks and many of the pro's that are "using" them are actually using something else with the flylite graphics, usually ADV vapors. We as consumers need to voice our concerns so they start actually providing decent products again. 

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15 minutes ago, stick9 said:

I don't think you'll see the level of change you are describing. The Bauer holder, edge or otherwise has been a mainstay since the tuuk era began. 

Time will tell.

I am not so sure about that, there are already way more players using the new CCM XS holder than I would have imagined. 

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On 12/11/2019 at 10:21 AM, pgeorgan said:

I've yet to experience any play in my holders - player and goalie skates - if it's even an issue. 

Then it sounds like you haven't worked in a shop sharpening skates. It's an issue I see daily, put the steel in the clamp and watch the boot flop. Most players don't care because they don't want to pay for the repairs and for a beer league competition it just doesn't make things that much better. Talk to anyone who cares about their equipment and it's impact on performance (at least in my experience) and then it's a different matter. 

Edited by Vet88
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31 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Then it sounds like you haven't worked in a shop sharpening skates. It's an issue I see daily, put the steel in the clamp and watch the boot flop. Most players don't care because they don't want to pay for the repairs and for a beer league competition it just doesn't make things that much better. Talk to anyone who cares about their equipment and it's impact on performance (at least in my experience) and then it's a different matter. 

Correct, I've not worked in a pro shop. However, I would definitely care. And I would notice. 

You probably see it daily because of something called "sample bias". 

Anyway, not here to defend any particular brand's quality. I've had great experiences with all sorts of vendors. I've had bad too, including with Step Steel, eg. 

It's just funny to see a lot of people on here complaining that Bauer sucks bet then get mad because they can't use aftermarket steel with Bauer. 

Just my two cents. 

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